WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

[a380super]

Hopefully after years of people saying they weren't at AC just because they weren't good enough for it, not because they made the choice for a better lifestyle, both Sunwing and WestJet pilots would be in a very good position to realize there are a lot of pilots at both companies that are there because they want to be and could've gotten in the door anywhere else too. There were always pros and cons to any of the major operators in Canada.

When is the last time you saw a happy Air Canada pilot?

I'm not able to answer your question...just wondering why we are loosing young talented pilots here in swg going to AC after the westjet merge has been announced. ??

[dontcallmeshirley]

I'm not able to answer your question...just wondering why we are loosing young talented pilots here in swg going to AC after the westjet merge has been announced. ??

I can't speak for those who leave for AC, but I can guess.

Air Canada is the only airline in Canada, realistically, where you can go and fly a widebody when you first start. They do have some benefits such as perceived longevity and a wide range of destinations.

Unless you're looking to fly a widebody or are infatuated with the red roundel on black, I don't see why people go to AC.

[daedalusx]

Hopefully after years of people saying they weren't at AC just because they weren't good enough for it, not because they made the choice for a better lifestyle, both Sunwing and WestJet pilots would be in a very good position to realize there are a lot of pilots at both companies that are there because they want to be and could've gotten in the door anywhere else too. There were always pros and cons to any of the major operators in Canada.

When is the last time you saw a happy Air Canada pilot?

I'm not able to answer your question...just wondering why we are loosing young talented pilots here in swg going to AC after the westjet merge has been announced. ??

There’s also a few SWG pilots that got offers from AC and decided to roll the dice and stay at WJ.

It’s a delicate balance of lifestyle, earning potential, upgrade potential, pilot age, home base vs commute, being poor on flat pay.

[TheLastonetoknow]

I'm not able to answer your question...just wondering why we are loosing young talented pilots here in swg going to AC after the westjet merge has been announced. ??

I can't speak for those who leave for AC, but I can guess.

Air Canada is the only airline in Canada, realistically, where you can go and fly a widebody when you first start. They do have some benefits such as perceived longevity and a wide range of destinations.

Unless you're looking to fly a widebody or are infatuated with the red roundel on black, I don't see why people go to AC.

I don’t think it’s about roundels or infatuations in the least. Fleet type, pension, route variety of a major airline, quicker progression to the left seat and more then likely better wawcon to come for new hires.

If you live in the east, it’s an obvious choice...

[dontcallmeshirley]

I don’t think it’s about roundels or infatuations in the least. Fleet type, pension, route variety of a major airline, quicker progression to the left seat and more then likely better wawcon to come for new hires.

If you live in the east, it’s an obvious choice...

I appreciate the optimism regarding the WAWCon to come, but it's all speculation until it's in ink.

[a380super]

Indeed....there will be always lots of factors involved...
Every single pilot has different priority : money, career, lifestyle, benefits....

[Hysteria]

How are the pairings out of YEG these days, expanding?

[mijbil]

How are the pairings out of YEG these days, expanding?

That depends if you currently fly for WG or WS. In the past February was our busiest month by far. Things would start slowish in October and November. By mid December things were rolling for the Christmas rush, January was steady, and by February when people are sick of shovelling snow etc and didn't plan ahead, down go the credit cards and it was full tilt. March sees a bit of a slackening except for spring break and it really declines in April.

This year we are seeing reserve sprinkled through all bases at all levels of seniority for both seats as basically block filler to bring us up somewhere near MMG. There are some bases that have a bit more flying but we are all seeing Swoop tails crewed by WS mainline using Sunwing callsigns. In the past we had TUI. Now it's WS but it seems as though they are pumping up their schedules at our expense. The current best rumour is that it is an ONEX numbers game to make it seem like WS is really busy prior to an IPO at some time in the future (spring 2025??) to attract investors. This was told to me by a senior WS CA based in YVR as we rode in on the train one day.
Traditionally winter is when we make hay by doing GDO (double pay on GDO and VACGDO) work. 20 hours of credit on a 3 day pairing at double time is basically worth half of MMG and you can do it in three days. Summers are (or were) for deployments and slack time. In essence we are getting the "welcome" from ONEX prior to the merge. We know it's not the mainline guys driving it individually. I don't know if it the WS scope clause doing this to a degree or if the ONEX pump up the numbers ploy is closer to reality or just a realistic rumour.
What is reality is that we are sitting around in our traditionally busy time. I can't say most of us are very impressed.
On a sidebar note, for the WS guys who have not done much reading into what WG is all about and who are perhaps influenced by some of the WS MEC podcasts, here is an independent read about us. In a nutshell, you are not 'rescuing us" like CDN and AC a generation ago. It was quite easy to see how profitable WG was because a few years ago a deal with TUI was struck. Until the merger share swap deal between ONEX and the WG travel group, TUI owned 49% of the WG travel group. Not the airline - the entire group including the hotels where the real money is made. The airline (just like at TUI) is an expense item. TUI is publicly traded so those who had the time and inclination would look at the TUI public financial statements and backplot it.

https://www.paxnews.com/news/tour-opera ... utive-year

[fish4life]

Just a note from your posted article, revenue growth doesn’t mean profit growth. In fact a company can have 100 million in revenue with a 20 million profit and be much more successful than a company with 1 billion in revenue (10x growth) and only 10 million in profit.

[Handover]

Just a note from your posted article, revenue growth doesn’t mean profit growth. In fact a company can have 100 million in revenue with a 20 million profit and be much more successful than a company with 1 billion in revenue (10x growth) and only 10 million in profit.

While it's true that revenue growth doesn't always equate to profit growth, this perspective overlooks the broader context of business success. Revenue growth is a critical indicator of market demand and the ability of a company to scale its operations. A company with $1 billion in revenue, even with relatively lower profit, might be investing heavily in expansion, research, and development, or acquiring strategic assets, which could secure its competitive advantage and ensure long-term profitability.

Furthermore, success in business isn't measured by profit alone. Cash flow, market share, and customer acquisition costs, among other metrics, are also vital in evaluating a company's health and potential. Companies, especially in their growth stages, might prioritize these aspects over immediate profits, with the expectation that these investments will yield higher returns in the future.

In essence, assessing a company's success requires looking beyond profit figures to understand its strategic investments, market position, and potential for future growth. Short-term profit metrics don't always capture the full picture of a company's long-term prospects.

[BigQ]

Sunwing pilots are not "damsels in distress".

Look at the filings from the TUI group, under "Canadian operations". The Sunwing Travel Group was very much solvent. This is a case of two companies exchanging one asset in return for a preferential access to another asset. One gets a large cash influx towards asset purchases and development, the other gets preferential market access and a strong brand.

If you come at this with a "saviour complex", well, we won't like it. Many of us are at Sunwing because of the unparalleled quality of life that we have enjoyed. No other 705 ops can provide "sleep in your own bed 28-29 nights out of 30" in year 1 of seniority - if one so chooses. We are well aware that that QoL is gone once the merger happens. Money isn't everything.

So let's keep it amicable, as equals. Sunwing pilots are looking forward to work with each and everyone of you.

I, for one, look forward to tasting the Westjet kool-aid after a few years of Orange Tang.

[jjj]

I think BigQ spelled it out nicely.

Sunwing was the best kept secret in Canada whilst us WS and AC folks were talking about how great things are relative to others.

A lot of us appreciate that Sunwing will help reinforce our business and long term stability.

Sucks about the deployments getting flushed and sorry that despite a good WS contract - the grievances with the corp keep piling up.

Looking forward to getting past the merger stuff which is completely out of our hands and sharing the flight deck with you all.

Cheers.

JJJ

[Fanblade]

Financial status of the companies is irrelevant.

Canadian Airlines was within hours of failure in January 2000. The arbitrator did not take it into account. Air Canada purchased a going concern. End of story.

[boeingboy]

Financial status of the companies is irrelevant.

Canadian Airlines was within hours of failure in January 2000. The arbitrator did not take it into account. Air Canada purchased a going concern. End of story.

I think you missed the whole point of BigQ's eloquently put post. The fact Sunwing made money every year is irrelevant in the fact of this merger - but it was more directed at the group of people that seem to think "We saved your jobs - be lucky your here at all" type of attitude.

I really dislike unions - it sometimes would be easier without them.....case in point - one of my non-union acquaintances just told me they had their meeting with Westjet about their new role at Westjet and they are keeping not only their wage - but are being given DOH for seniority.

It's unfortunate that there are some on both sides in our case that can and will be quite militant about the whole thing, which only serves to drag things out and alienate a lot of people. I'll be glad when this whole thing is over and hope we can all get along in the front end no matter what happens.

[Fanblade]

Financial status of the companies is irrelevant.

Canadian Airlines was within hours of failure in January 2000. The arbitrator did not take it into account. Air Canada purchased a going concern. End of story.

"We saved your jobs - be lucky your here at all" type of attitude.

This was exactly what I was talking about.

The argument is irrelevant and will be treated as such by an arbitrator. Even to the point of being true. Still irrelevant

[CaptDukeNukem]

Financial status of the companies is irrelevant.

Canadian Airlines was within hours of failure in January 2000. The arbitrator did not take it into account. Air Canada purchased a going concern. End of story.

one of my non-union acquaintances just told me they had their meeting with Westjet about their new role at Westjet and they are keeping not only their wage - but are being given DOH for seniority.

Wait!? What?!

Please. Would you kindly address the peanut gallery further on this comment?

[Fanblade]

Financial status of the companies is irrelevant.

Canadian Airlines was within hours of failure in January 2000. The arbitrator did not take it into account. Air Canada purchased a going concern. End of story.

one of my non-union acquaintances just told me they had their meeting with Westjet about their new role at Westjet and they are keeping not only their wage - but are being given DOH for seniority.

Wait!? What?!

Please. Would you kindly address the peanut gallery further on this comment?

See bold. Non union don’t have seniority lists. The company sets policy and it is likely LOS or DOH. In some cases nothing at all. But it is not a seniority list as in the type a union would refer to. Even if they refer to it as such it is not.

It’s irrelevant to the issue of combining two unionized seniority lists.

[MaxAuto]

Do you think AVH was caught off guard in the last town hall when Diederik mentioned possible dry lease aircraft for the 2024/25 Sunwings winter season if the October deadline isn't achieved? His face turned red with hives as if he had an allergic reaction.

[safetyfirst123]

It's in everybody's interest to achieve the October goal, but for that to happen all parties need to play ball, including management. Hopefully both pilot groups understand the leverage that exists in this situation.

[boeingboy]

Do you think AVH was caught off guard in the last town hall when Diederik mentioned possible dry lease aircraft for the 2024/25 Sunwings winter season if the October deadline isn't achieved? His face turned red with hives as if he had an allergic reaction.

I think it's going to have to happen regardless if the Oct deadline is met or not. Westjet simply doesn't have the lift to provide for the Sunwing side. Part of that is delays in Boeing deliveries, but I 'm getting the sense that Westjet may have underestimated the scope of things and they are clearly not ready to take over 100%.

If Westjet were to take over 100% - there would be serious gaps in their schedule. We (as one company) are going to be short 15 - 20 aircraft for the winter season. Now granted some of that can be combined between the companies and some could potentially be remedied by the use of the 787 like it was this spring - but those are not ideal solutions and still leaves us short of lift. Without acquiring more aircraft in short order - I don't see how they can get through the winter season without at least some kind of short term leases.

[boeingboy]

one of my non-union acquaintances just told me they had their meeting with Westjet about their new role at Westjet and they are keeping not only their wage - but are being given DOH for seniority.

Wait!? What?!

Please. Would you kindly address the peanut gallery further on this comment?

See bold. Non union don’t have seniority lists. The company sets policy and it is likely LOS or DOH. In some cases nothing at all. But it is not a seniority list as in the type a union would refer to. Even if they refer to it as such it is not.

It’s irrelevant to the issue of combining two unionized seniority lists.

Fanblade is correct in that 2 unionized parties merging have their own set of rules and issues...what I found interesting (and should have elaborated further) is that while the person I was referring is non-union currently....they are merging into a union with all their current wages and benefits. Not sure how that is playing out the way it is.

[BigQ]

I hear from WG's perspective that the training plan to retrain the 520 or so WG pilots hasn't been even created or even sent to TC for approval. But I'm wondering if anyone at WS knows otherwise?

Last I heard 2 captains at each are looking at each others' SOPs and coming up with adjustments, but not much is moving in that department...

[QKZXKV]

I hear from WG's perspective that the training plan to retrain the 520 or so WG pilots hasn't been even created or even sent to TC for approval. But I'm wondering if anyone at WS knows otherwise?

Last I heard 2 captains at each are looking at each others' SOPs and coming up with adjustments, but not much is moving in that department...

I would guess retaining all of the WJ SOPs, the bigger pilot group isn't going to have the major changes thrusted at them. A lot of the SWG SOPs (from what I've seen) resemble European practices which aligns itself with the TUI operation (you'd know better obviously about it).

[ant_321]

I hear from WG's perspective that the training plan to retrain the 520 or so WG pilots hasn't been even created or even sent to TC for approval. But I'm wondering if anyone at WS knows otherwise?

Last I heard 2 captains at each are looking at each others' SOPs and coming up with adjustments, but not much is moving in that department...

I would guess retaining all of the WJ SOPs, the bigger pilot group isn't going to have the major changes thrusted at them. A lot of the SWG SOPs (from what I've seen) resemble European practices which aligns itself with the TUI operation (you'd know better obviously about it).

SWG uses Boeing SOP’s for the most part. They resemble the majority of 737 operators in the world.

[boeingboy]

I hear from WG's perspective that the training plan to retrain the 520 or so WG pilots hasn't been even created or even sent to TC for approval. But I'm wondering if anyone at WS knows otherwise?

Last I heard 2 captains at each are looking at each others' SOPs and coming up with adjustments, but not much is moving in that department...

I would guess retaining all of the WJ SOPs, the bigger pilot group isn't going to have the major changes thrusted at them. A lot of the SWG SOPs (from what I've seen) resemble European practices which aligns itself with the TUI operation (you'd know better obviously about it).

Actually - they are all Boeing SOP's