Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[Nick678]

Exactly. There is no blacklist. Look at the facts, the new hire stats are readily available to any AC pilot. Some might want to believe there is a list because it makes them feel better about staying at jazz, meanwhile everyone around them who circumvents the process and joins OTS ends up with a much better seniority number.

So let me get this straight, you, a formerly Jazz pilot who went to AC would rather tell Jazz pilots to leave instead of enforcing the contract that was agreed to. You would also not make the company rectify the situation they created, instead you consider OTS pilots more an Air Canada pilot than the Jazz pilots who were skipped over simply because the companies both Jazz and AC failed to plan for the disruption any amount of significant hiring would cause.
I’m almost positive they knew full well what would happen if they started this hiring campaign without making Jazz more attractive, likely the only thing they didn’t count on was Porter when they hatched it out.
To be clear, I consider Jazz pilots who were contractually obliged to those spots entitled to their rightful seniority, not based on when they were hired, when they should have been hired. I don’t pick and choose what item in the contract they should follow, it’s a CONTRACT, letting them away with anything is wrong.

I’m a firm believer of taking charge of one’s own career, yes. Sitting around “hoping” is not a valid strategy for anything in life. If the fastest route to AC (if that’s the goal) is OTS, then I’d make it happen, rather than sitting and waiting on some judgement that may or may not bode favourably for me.

Sticking it to the big bad company may be a noble endeavour, but if it doesn’t further one’s career progression, what’s the point?

Most got hired before the agreement was ignored and switching companies isn’t like returning an item to Costco. I would recommend anyone to avoid jazz now.

[sportingrifle]

Well this is going to get interesting.

What Air Canada knows and the “ bearded children” probably don’t, is that a labour arbitrator is very constrained in what they can consider when rendering a decision. They cannot just award what they want or what they think is fair. They have to consider a myriad of factors that are ranked in importance. The contract itself is important, “ fair” is far down the list. But topping the list is the financial viability and competitiveness of the employer. Makes sense, no point in rendering a decision that makes a business unviable or uncompetitive.

Given the highly publicized and staggeringly expensive failure of Jazz to crew their operations and the subsequent mass flight cancellations, it will be pretty easy for the company to play the viability and competitiveness card. (The number $67 mill is being thrown around.) But the Jazz pilots had a strong case with a clear contract that was being violated. Until they signed MOS 7. By doing so, they acknowledged that the previous deal was unworkable, negotiated a deal that is workable, and received financial benefit in compensation. Well played AC Legal. I wouldn’t be surprised if the arbitrator looks at the MOS, congratulates both parties for recognizing and solving the problem, and it’s “ move on, nothing to see here.” It would be interesting to get Rudder’s take on this.

But the interest and entertainment is going to be the Air Canada ALPA MEC. Unlikely as it is, this grievance has the possibility to negatively affect some junior AC pilots on the AC seniority list. The list that AC ALPA owns and has a legal duty to their members to protect. Are they going to seek to intervene? What are they telling their very junior members? Fun times indeed and shades of 1996.

In Solidarity,

Sportingrifle

[cdnavater]

Exactly. There is no blacklist. Look at the facts, the new hire stats are readily available to any AC pilot. Some might want to believe there is a list because it makes them feel better about staying at jazz, meanwhile everyone around them who circumvents the process and joins OTS ends up with a much better seniority number.

So let me get this straight, you, a formerly Jazz pilot who went to AC would rather tell Jazz pilots to leave instead of enforcing the contract that was agreed to. You would also not make the company rectify the situation they created, instead you consider OTS pilots more an Air Canada pilot than the Jazz pilots who were skipped over simply because the companies both Jazz and AC failed to plan for the disruption any amount of significant hiring would cause.
I’m almost positive they knew full well what would happen if they started this hiring campaign without making Jazz more attractive, likely the only thing they didn’t count on was Porter when they hatched it out.
To be clear, I consider Jazz pilots who were contractually obliged to those spots entitled to their rightful seniority, not based on when they were hired, when they should have been hired. I don’t pick and choose what item in the contract they should follow, it’s a CONTRACT, letting them away with anything is wrong.

I’m a firm believer of taking charge of one’s own career, yes. Sitting around “hoping” is not a valid strategy for anything in life. If the fastest route to AC (if that’s the goal) is OTS, then I’d make it happen, rather than sitting and waiting on some judgement that may or may not bode favourably for me.

Sticking it to the big bad company may be a noble endeavour, but if it doesn’t further one’s career progression, what’s the point?

Well, I’m pretty sure if the company violated your collective rights in anyway, you’re going to fight or bloody well demand your union fight for you!
Or are you just okay with the agreement being nothing but a piece of paper that may or may not be followed?
Company decides they would like to treat Rouge as a separate company despite it being in writing that those pilots are on the seniority list, this is okay? Sorry Rouge pilots, I know you were supposed to be AC pilots but the company has decided your are not, that’s okay with you? Or is it just Jazz pilots that are not worthy of consideration?

[rudder]

Well this is going to get interesting.

What Air Canada knows and the “ bearded children” probably don’t, is that a labour arbitrator is very constrained in what they can consider when rendering a decision. They cannot just award what they want or what they think is fair. They have to consider a myriad of factors that are ranked in importance. The contract itself is important, “ fair” is far down the list. But topping the list is the financial viability and competitiveness of the employer. Makes sense, no point in rendering a decision that makes a business unviable or uncompetitive.

Given the highly publicized and staggeringly expensive failure of Jazz to crew their operations and the subsequent mass flight cancellations, it will be pretty easy for the company to play the viability and competitiveness card. (The number $67 mill is being thrown around.) And the Jazz pilots had a strong case with a clear contract that was being violated. Until they signed MOS 7. By doing so, they acknowledged that the previous deal was unworkable, negotiated a deal that is workable, and received financial benefit in compensation. Well played AC Legal. I wouldn’t be surprised if the arbitrator looks at the MOS, congratulates both parties for recognizing and solving the problem, and it’s “ move on, nothing to see here.” It would be interesting to get Rudder’s take on this.

But the interest and entertainment is going to be the Air Canada ALPA MEC. Unlikely as it is, this grievance has the possibility to negatively affect some junior AC pilots on the AC seniority list. The list that AC ALPA owns and has a legal duty to their members to protect. Are they going to seek to intervene? What are they telling their very junior members? Fun times indeed and shades of 1996.

There are more moving parts than a simple grievance.

The JAZ MEC can only grieve a CBA violation against the CBA counterparty - Jazz Aviation. An arbitrator can only issue a remedial decision (if deemed warranted) against Jazz Aviation.

A ULP filed through the CIRB can name third parties. The CIRB has greater latitude for remedy but also relies on promoting ‘stable labour relations’.

Lastly, the flow agreement also forms part of the commercial agreement between AC and CHR. Likely it will be determined exactly why pilots did not flow as proscribed. But that circumstance of ‘non-performance’ will also be measured against any other circumstance of non-performance in respect of the CPA. Watch for some serious finger pointing to occur.

Bottom line - best case outcome may be some $$ allocated to affected pilots. I would be shocked to see any form of retroactive seniority assignment.

However, it may be revealed the degree of influence that a third party is able to exert on Jazz/ALPA labour relations matters.

[sportingrifle]

Thumbs up Rudder.
Thx.

[cdnavater]

Well this is going to get interesting.

What Air Canada knows and the “ bearded children” probably don’t, is that a labour arbitrator is very constrained in what they can consider when rendering a decision. They cannot just award what they want or what they think is fair. They have to consider a myriad of factors that are ranked in importance. The contract itself is important, “ fair” is far down the list. But topping the list is the financial viability and competitiveness of the employer. Makes sense, no point in rendering a decision that makes a business unviable or uncompetitive.

Given the highly publicized and staggeringly expensive failure of Jazz to crew their operations and the subsequent mass flight cancellations, it will be pretty easy for the company to play the viability and competitiveness card. (The number $67 mill is being thrown around.) And the Jazz pilots had a strong case with a clear contract that was being violated. Until they signed MOS 7. By doing so, they acknowledged that the previous deal was unworkable, negotiated a deal that is workable, and received financial benefit in compensation. Well played AC Legal. I wouldn’t be surprised if the arbitrator looks at the MOS, congratulates both parties for recognizing and solving the problem, and it’s “ move on, nothing to see here.” It would be interesting to get Rudder’s take on this.

But the interest and entertainment is going to be the Air Canada ALPA MEC. Unlikely as it is, this grievance has the possibility to negatively affect some junior AC pilots on the AC seniority list. The list that AC ALPA owns and has a legal duty to their members to protect. Are they going to seek to intervene? What are they telling their very junior members? Fun times indeed and shades of 1996.

As far as Jazz ALPA goes, they told the company that it wouldn’t fix the problem and it hasn’t, they also filed an unfair labour practice complaint, the one in question, at exactly the same time as they advised the company of the vote results.
I’m pretty sure APLA legal was on top of this, knowing full well they were planning this next move, I’m sure it was evaluated.
I guess we will see, as for 1996, you are no doubt referring to the Air Ontario pilot lawsuit against ACPA pilots? I don’t see that happening this time around or are you referring to common employer application. This could be, given Air Canada’s actions, they sure act like our employer.
However, I have not heard anyone mention this, can the CIRB order this in their review of the situation?

https://www.talentcanada.ca/pilot-union ... anada-jazz

“On Monday, the Air Line Pilots Association filed a complaint with the Canada Industrial Relations Board arguing that both airlines violated the exclusivity deal between the two and effectively narrowed the pipeline of pilots from one carrier to the other.

Jazz, a subsidiary of Chorus Aviation Inc., provides regional service for the country’s biggest airline under the Air Canada Express brand.

In May, Air Canada CEO Michael Rousseau announced a “bridging arrangement” with St. John’s, N.L.-based company PAL Airlines to boost the number of regional flights in Eastern Canada
Rather than boost compensation and benefits to pilots — and thus attract and retain more in order to expand flight capacity at Jazz — management took another he route, he said. On top of partnering with PAL, that path also saw Air Canada’s “micromanaging what Jazz and Chorus are able to work out in bargaining” and setting an effective cap on Jazz’s spending, Perry claimed.

Air Canada and Jazz also encroached on pilots’ labour rights by “refusing to comply with contractual pilot ‘flow’ agreements,” which see a certain number of pilots trickle from Jazz to Air Canada each year, according to a union statement.”

[Turboprops]

This has been debunked countless times. You have a much better shot of getting hired if you come from OTS, as is evidenced by this whole situation.

Haha dude you have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you quit Jazz, you don’t end up in the OTS pool.
You end up in a pool called “OTS but they have Jazz on their resume so we’re blacklisting them”

Doubt AC gives a shit unless they try to go from Jazz - elsewhere - AC under 3 months.

They do give a shit, I tried

[Nick678]

Well this is going to get interesting.

What Air Canada knows and the “ bearded children” probably don’t, is that a labour arbitrator is very constrained in what they can consider when rendering a decision. They cannot just award what they want or what they think is fair. They have to consider a myriad of factors that are ranked in importance. The contract itself is important, “ fair” is far down the list. But topping the list is the financial viability and competitiveness of the employer. Makes sense, no point in rendering a decision that makes a business unviable or uncompetitive.

Given the highly publicized and staggeringly expensive failure of Jazz to crew their operations and the subsequent mass flight cancellations, it will be pretty easy for the company to play the viability and competitiveness card. (The number $67 mill is being thrown around.) And the Jazz pilots had a strong case with a clear contract that was being violated. Until they signed MOS 7. By doing so, they acknowledged that the previous deal was unworkable, negotiated a deal that is workable, and received financial benefit in compensation. Well played AC Legal. I wouldn’t be surprised if the arbitrator looks at the MOS, congratulates both parties for recognizing and solving the problem, and it’s “ move on, nothing to see here.” It would be interesting to get Rudder’s take on this.

But the interest and entertainment is going to be the Air Canada ALPA MEC. Unlikely as it is, this grievance has the possibility to negatively affect some junior AC pilots on the AC seniority list. The list that AC ALPA owns and has a legal duty to their members to protect. Are they going to seek to intervene? What are they telling their very junior members? Fun times indeed and shades of 1996.

There are more moving parts than a simple grievance.

The JAZ MEC can only grieve a CBA violation against the CBA counterparty - Jazz Aviation. An arbitrator can only issue a remedial decision (if deemed warranted) against Jazz Aviation.

A ULP filed through the CIRB can name third parties. The CIRB has greater latitude for remedy but also relies on promoting ‘stable labour relations’.

Lastly, the flow agreement also forms part of the commercial agreement between AC and CHR. Likely it will be determined exactly why pilots did not flow as proscribed. But that circumstance of ‘non-performance’ will also be measured against any other circumstance of non-performance in respect of the CPA. Watch for some serious finger pointing to occur.

Bottom line - best case outcome may be some $$ allocated to affected pilots. I would be shocked to see any form of retroactive seniority assignment.

This brings this convo full circle but how you would determine the $$? jazz doesn’t make a lot of money, chorus makes its money from leasing.



However, it may be revealed the degree of influence that a third party is able to exert on Jazz/ALPA labour relations matters.

[Jfthepilot]

You can’t monetize loss of seniority.

[billybgone345]

You can’t monetize loss of seniority.

Yes you can.
A year of Jazz wages (FO or Captain) vs. a year of 777 captain (or 777fo if you claim the pilots not might upgrade) is clear monetary losses. That's probably where the 200-250k lawsuit originates from.

It won't solve loss of lifestyle, loss of upgrade times etc but it's clear and easy for a court to decide

[goingnowherefast]

Take expected career progression, had the individual moved to AC if the contract was followed. Average upgrade times, YOS bumps, all that. Calculate the difference for the whole career, and paid out in one lump sum to every affected pilot.

If the old AC/Jazz flow didn't work, the corrections avenue is to approach the involved parties and negotiate something else. Sure it'll mean paying better. Breaking the agreement is gonna be expensive short term (grievance). It's also going to be expensive long term with the reputation damage as employers, since everyone knows the longest route to AC is through Jazz.

[cdnavater]

Take expected career progression, had the individual moved to AC if the contract was followed. Average upgrade times, YOS bumps, all that. Calculate the difference for the whole career, and paid out in one lump sum to every affected pilot.

If the old AC/Jazz flow didn't work, the corrections avenue is to approach the involved parties and negotiate something else. Sure it'll mean paying better. Breaking the agreement is gonna be expensive short term (grievance). It's also going to be expensive long term with the reputation damage as employers, since everyone knows the longest route to AC is through Jazz.

Yep, the only way to fix the harm done is to buy Jazz and merge them. Then all Jazz pilots including the ones who did flow get their YOS on the seniority list, everybody is happy.
Now, I’m joking of course but in reality this would fix the recruitment problem for Jazz without significant increases in pay but it hasn’t been done before, that I am aware of.
Bringing the jet fleet in and having another provider fly the Q, I wonder if they’ve started to look at this.

[sportingrifle]

The recruitment problem at Jazz is serious but at this point a fairly short term issue. When AC hiring slows, the music will stop everywhere, just like it always has. Coupled with the shrinking of Jazz after 2025 and the pilot shortage is over - for the medium term anyway. AC knows all this because they actually control both variables, and for that reason don’t want to spend huge $$$ solving a problem they know will solve itself.

[cdnavater]

The recruitment problem at Jazz is serious but at this point a fairly short term issue. When AC hiring slows, the music will stop everywhere, just like it always has. Coupled with the shrinking of Jazz after 2025 and the pilot shortage is over - for the medium term anyway. AC knows all this because they actually control both variables, and for that reason don’t want to spend huge $$$ solving a problem they know will solve itself.

We can agree on this, we have enough long term Jazz pilots to staff 80ish aircraft but as the senior pilots retire the fleet will have to continue to shrink unless they figure out how to keep the upgradable pilots from leaving.
AC hiring slowing is one part, Porter is still planning to grow to 100 aircraft, the pilots who gain experience at Jazz but get rejected from AC won’t stick around if they have a choice, that needs to be fixed, imho.

[Fanblade]

AC knows all this because they actually control both variables, and for that reason don’t want to spend huge $$$ solving a problem they know will solve itself.

AC controls two variables. They don’t control individual decisions, Encore negotiations, Flair negotiations or how Porter will respond. The “problem” may become less acute as AC slows hiring but it won’t solve itself. I’d say that is typical AC arrogance on the other hand it is also a great way to deflect.

It was only a year ago that AC was claiming “ The pilot shortage is something that is impacting OTHER airlines”

At the end of the day AC has to pay market rates. If they don’t, eventually AC won’t have a feeder. Sure they can stall while shrinking Jazz. But given enough time. Market rates or no feeder. The best they can do is delay the inevitable. And on that note that seems to be exactly what they are doing. Delay until they must pay.

We know they need a feeder. They will pay. The question is when not if.

[bcflyer]

We’re always separate companies till it’s an AC pilot asking for the jumpseat home then getting pissed when a baby face jazz pilot gets it instead lol…it might be a shitty contract but it’s a contract none the less between two parties and it was violated and massive damages to individuals careers have been done and resolution needs to be found. No different then if you wanted to leave your Navajo job in shoe lookout early, you paid out your bond, negotiated a deal or the company sent the collectors after you.

First off no AC pilot is pissed when a Jazz pilot gets the jump on a Jazz flight. Stop dragging up ancient history.
Secondly AC is the one who screwed the Jazz pilots not the AC pilots. Go after AC for the financial damage. All the AC pilots will cheer you on. Start asking change the seniority list you’re now punishing your fellow pilots and I’ll guarantee nobody will sit and let that happen.

[GodlvlPilot]

We’re always separate companies till it’s an AC pilot asking for the jumpseat home then getting pissed when a baby face jazz pilot gets it instead lol…it might be a shitty contract but it’s a contract none the less between two parties and it was violated and massive damages to individuals careers have been done and resolution needs to be found. No different then if you wanted to leave your Navajo job in shoe lookout early, you paid out your bond, negotiated a deal or the company sent the collectors after you.

First off no AC pilot is pissed when a Jazz pilot gets the jump on a Jazz flight. Stop dragging up ancient history.
Secondly AC is the one who screwed the Jazz pilots not the AC pilots. Go after AC for the financial damage. All the AC pilots will cheer you on. Start asking change the seniority list you’re now punishing your fellow pilots and I’ll guarantee nobody will sit and let that happen.

Maybe you won't be pissed but there has been multiple instances especially out east with ac pilots being vocal about "seniority" and about their right to our cockpit. Which is interesting because there have been quite a few emails to our union rep about ac pilots rejecting jumpseat and leaving empty on grounds of "because you're a jazz pilot" or "once you guys figure out your hiring and take the regional flying back" excuses.

No one from Jazz or ac wants to be inconvenienced by a seniority list shift. I have friends at ac that met and exceeded recruiting requirements that Maybe displaced by that.

But I'll reiterate the continually spoken echo. It would be quite difficult to measure overall loss by guys where eligible to leave jazz but were not taken because ac chose not to take them as they continually choose not to take from Jazz into this year.

[Nick678]

We’re always separate companies till it’s an AC pilot asking for the jumpseat home then getting pissed when a baby face jazz pilot gets it instead lol…it might be a shitty contract but it’s a contract none the less between two parties and it was violated and massive damages to individuals careers have been done and resolution needs to be found. No different then if you wanted to leave your Navajo job in shoe lookout early, you paid out your bond, negotiated a deal or the company sent the collectors after you.

First off no AC pilot is pissed when a Jazz pilot gets the jump on a Jazz flight. Stop dragging up ancient history.
Secondly AC is the one who screwed the Jazz pilots not the AC pilots. Go after AC for the financial damage. All the AC pilots will cheer you on. Start asking change the seniority list you’re now punishing your fellow pilots and I’ll guarantee nobody will sit and let that happen.

I really doubt messing with the ass end of a seniority list will ruffle as many feather as you think. It’s an unlikely outcome but what should be the remedy then? How much?

[cdnavater]

We’re always separate companies till it’s an AC pilot asking for the jumpseat home then getting pissed when a baby face jazz pilot gets it instead lol…it might be a shitty contract but it’s a contract none the less between two parties and it was violated and massive damages to individuals careers have been done and resolution needs to be found. No different then if you wanted to leave your Navajo job in shoe lookout early, you paid out your bond, negotiated a deal or the company sent the collectors after you.

First off no AC pilot is pissed when a Jazz pilot gets the jump on a Jazz flight. Stop dragging up ancient history.
Secondly AC is the one who screwed the Jazz pilots not the AC pilots. Go after AC for the financial damage. All the AC pilots will cheer you on. Start asking change the seniority list you’re now punishing your fellow pilots and I’ll guarantee nobody will sit and let that happen.

I really doubt messing with the ass end of a seniority list will ruffle as many feather as you think. It’s an unlikely outcome but what should be the remedy then? How much?

Imagine, all the Jazz pilots who were bypassed get a lump sum of 200k and some type virtual seniority for their entire tenure at AC, those pilots who would have been shuffled will probably be screaming how unfair that is!

[jazzsucks]

Any ideas on when we will hear anything? does these things typically go to trial? all i heard was mid April

[pipedream?]

We’re always separate companies till it’s an AC pilot asking for the jumpseat home then getting pissed when a baby face jazz pilot gets it instead lol…it might be a shitty contract but it’s a contract none the less between two parties and it was violated and massive damages to individuals careers have been done and resolution needs to be found. No different then if you wanted to leave your Navajo job in shoe lookout early, you paid out your bond, negotiated a deal or the company sent the collectors after you.

First off no AC pilot is pissed when a Jazz pilot gets the jump on a Jazz flight. Stop dragging up ancient history.
Secondly AC is the one who screwed the Jazz pilots not the AC pilots. Go after AC for the financial damage. All the AC pilots will cheer you on. Start asking change the seniority list you’re now punishing your fellow pilots and I’ll guarantee nobody will sit and let that happen.

It was a little tongue n’ cheek about the jumpseat but it’s also a very real situation that I’ve seen happening more and more lately. If you’ve read any my other posts in this thread, I’ve said many time that no Jazz pilot wants to hurt an AC pilot. We want AC to he held accountable for violating the conditions of our collective agreement. Ultimately, it will be the arbitrators that figure out an appropriate resolution, but lump sum payments or bumping Jazz pilots up a few years on the AC pay scale based on their years of service at Jazz are just napkin ideas currently.

[PostmasterGeneral]

We’re always separate companies till it’s an AC pilot asking for the jumpseat home then getting pissed when a baby face jazz pilot gets it instead lol…it might be a shitty contract but it’s a contract none the less between two parties and it was violated and massive damages to individuals careers have been done and resolution needs to be found. No different then if you wanted to leave your Navajo job in shoe lookout early, you paid out your bond, negotiated a deal or the company sent the collectors after you.

First off no AC pilot is pissed when a Jazz pilot gets the jump on a Jazz flight. Stop dragging up ancient history.
Secondly AC is the one who screwed the Jazz pilots not the AC pilots. Go after AC for the financial damage. All the AC pilots will cheer you on. Start asking change the seniority list you’re now punishing your fellow pilots and I’ll guarantee nobody will sit and let that happen.

It was a little tongue n’ cheek about the jumpseat but it’s also a very real situation that I’ve seen happening more and more lately. If you’ve read any my other posts in this thread, I’ve said many time that no Jazz pilot wants to hurt an AC pilot. We want AC to he held accountable for violating the conditions of our collective agreement. Ultimately, it will be the arbitrators that figure out an appropriate resolution, but lump sum payments or bumping Jazz pilots up a few years on the AC pay scale based on their years of service at Jazz are just napkin ideas currently.

Isn’t AC going to argue that they had no choice but to pause hiring from Jazz because Jazz was too short staffed as it was to even keep their airplanes in the sky?

[pipedream?]

First off no AC pilot is pissed when a Jazz pilot gets the jump on a Jazz flight. Stop dragging up ancient history.
Secondly AC is the one who screwed the Jazz pilots not the AC pilots. Go after AC for the financial damage. All the AC pilots will cheer you on. Start asking change the seniority list you’re now punishing your fellow pilots and I’ll guarantee nobody will sit and let that happen.

It was a little tongue n’ cheek about the jumpseat but it’s also a very real situation that I’ve seen happening more and more lately. If you’ve read any my other posts in this thread, I’ve said many time that no Jazz pilot wants to hurt an AC pilot. We want AC to he held accountable for violating the conditions of our collective agreement. Ultimately, it will be the arbitrators that figure out an appropriate resolution, but lump sum payments or bumping Jazz pilots up a few years on the AC pay scale based on their years of service at Jazz are just napkin ideas currently.

Isn’t AC going to argue that they had no choice but to pause hiring from Jazz because Jazz was too short staffed as it was to even keep their airplanes in the sky?

Post covid, we had almost 1800 pilots on our seniority list? First 3 classes post covid at Jazz were all full of 2000hr plus candidates, the moment word got out they were pausing hiring from Jazz, friends with experience turned down start dates with Jazz, went to flair, swoop, wj, ect. Now, ironically, they’re all at AC lol.

[cdnavater]

First off no AC pilot is pissed when a Jazz pilot gets the jump on a Jazz flight. Stop dragging up ancient history.
Secondly AC is the one who screwed the Jazz pilots not the AC pilots. Go after AC for the financial damage. All the AC pilots will cheer you on. Start asking change the seniority list you’re now punishing your fellow pilots and I’ll guarantee nobody will sit and let that happen.

It was a little tongue n’ cheek about the jumpseat but it’s also a very real situation that I’ve seen happening more and more lately. If you’ve read any my other posts in this thread, I’ve said many time that no Jazz pilot wants to hurt an AC pilot. We want AC to he held accountable for violating the conditions of our collective agreement. Ultimately, it will be the arbitrators that figure out an appropriate resolution, but lump sum payments or bumping Jazz pilots up a few years on the AC pay scale based on their years of service at Jazz are just napkin ideas currently.

Isn’t AC going to argue that they had no choice but to pause hiring from Jazz because Jazz was too short staffed as it was to even keep their airplanes in the sky?

Sure they could argue that, however it was a situation of their own making how could an arbitrator side with that.

[vanislepilot]

It was a little tongue n’ cheek about the jumpseat but it’s also a very real situation that I’ve seen happening more and more lately. If you’ve read any my other posts in this thread, I’ve said many time that no Jazz pilot wants to hurt an AC pilot. We want AC to he held accountable for violating the conditions of our collective agreement. Ultimately, it will be the arbitrators that figure out an appropriate resolution, but lump sum payments or bumping Jazz pilots up a few years on the AC pay scale based on their years of service at Jazz are just napkin ideas currently.

Isn’t AC going to argue that they had no choice but to pause hiring from Jazz because Jazz was too short staffed as it was to even keep their airplanes in the sky?

Sure they could argue that, however it was a situation of their own making how could an arbitrator side with that.

My guy if you have such a clear disdain for AC, why do you want to work there? I’m genuinely curious this isn’t a dig or anything.