Aerkavo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 3:14 pm
You want to drastically change the social contract and tax the hell out of the boomers? Fine. This has nothing to do with the TA but it almost makes me wish that we really had negotiated a "B" scale. A little parting gift from the boomers for the next generation.
Ahhhhh… the truth comes out.
But you’d rather leave the debt problem in this country to your own kids , and those kids with parents much less fortunate than you and unable to leave an inheritance, than ever vote for modest , measured structural changes that help the nation long after you’re gone. Probably rooting for the Bloc’s proposal to go nuts on OAS too.
No worries. The kids can pay for it.
Its no wonder the best and brightest leave for the USA if they can. This country attracts no talent, no entrepreneurial spirit whatsoever.
You’re the problem. Pure selfishness.
Btw I am close in age to a Boomer myself. Such changes would cost me personally. But its “what can I do for my country”. A phrase totally foreign to the boomer generation.
Again, what does this have to do with AC and the TA? You want to discuss macroeconomics? I'm sure there's a thread for that.
You're the one who stated that legislation should be brought to punish the boomers for their actions and accumulated wealth. If this is the game - majority rules - why are you so angry? You think you can, and should use, the majority against the minority why are you against it now? Same game.
Oh, I see, when the majority is against you it's evil but when you're in the majority and working against someone else it's fair and just.
My goodness you use a lot of unnecessary inflammatory language when losing a purely rational argument. Calm down. If the poor lifestyle you claim to have with a mortgage and modest house is an accurate representation, I doubt any means test would touch you, what do you care?
Anyway.
This is all related to a substandard TA for younger pilots, because life has become unaffordable due to housing, monetary and tax policies all expressly designed by the boomer generation to offload future liabilities and higher living expenses onto the younger generations.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Sun Oct 06, 2024 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Again, what does this have to do with AC and the TA? You want to discuss macroeconomics? I'm sure there's a thread for that.
You're the one who stated that legislation should be brought to punish the boomers for their actions and accumulated wealth. If this is the game - majority rules - why are you so angry? You think you can, and should use, the majority against the minority why are you against it now? Same game.
Oh, I see, when the majority is against you it's evil but when you're in the majority and working against someone else it's fair and just.
[/quote]
Careful bro. When AvCanada’s resident economist gets going with pontifications on Political status to GDP and everything in between, Threads have a tendency to get locked
rookiepilot wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 4:04 pm
My goodness you use a lot of unnecessary inflammatory language when losing a purely rational argument. Calm down. If the poor lifestyle you claim to have with a mortgage and modest house is an accurate representation, I doubt any means test would touch you, what do you care?
Anyway.
This is all related to a substandard TA for younger pilots, because life has become unaffordable due to housing, monetary and tax policies all expressly designed by the boomer generation to offload future liabilities and higher living expenses onto the younger generations.
Something never seen before on this scale. It is what it is. This is what I do, I am pretty qualified to make this comment.
I fail to see where I am losing any argument, rational or other wise.
The TA is not substandard. The first 4 years pay higher than any time in history (inflation adjusted) and the later years are easily far above anything previous pilots enjoyed. What ever "offloading" you see is not present in the TA. New AC pilots will accumulate far higher career earnings than any pilot before them and enjoy a far better retirement then any before them. Your macro-economic analysis does not apply here.
The final analysis, done 30 years from now, will show that that newhire pilots achieved a far better career path than those who came before.
rookiepilot wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 2:28 pm
Let’s be honest here.
The government has both of these policies because boomers, until now the largest, and certainly most activist voting block, and retiring in large numbers, want both of these policies to pay for exploding government funded, retirement and medical obligations, without losing any benefits.
The alternative which would be much, much better for the country in the long run, are policies that the grey vote would go ballistic over: Cutting costs.
Hard austerity : strict means testing (net worth testing) for all public pension / OAS payments, and significant user fees for the medical system and all public services.
20 bucks to see a doctor. 100 bucks for an ER visit.
No pharmacare, no dental, no nothing. Tax sale of primary residence. Raise property taxes. Remove all exemptions for sales taxes.
Cut income taxes.
Awesome. And this has what to do with AC and the TA?
You want to drastically change the social contract and tax the hell out of the boomers? Fine. This has nothing to do with the TA but it almost makes me wish that we really had negotiated a "B" scale. A little parting gift from the boomers for the next generation.
In 10 or 20 years all the wealth with be transferred to your generation and then you'll be the bad guys. Probably won't like all the means testing then will you? Nothing changes, every generation blames the previous for all their problems. Your time will come.
See, exactly. My post wasn’t so irreverent after all. This is the mentally of most when nearing retirement. You can transfer all the wealth to the lower generation you want. The trouble is they should have more wealth cuz you floated them downstream.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 4:23 pm
See, exactly. My post wasn’t so irreverent after all. This is the mentally of most when nearing retirement. You can transfer all the wealth to the lower generation you want. The trouble is they should have more wealth cuz you floated them downstream.
You fell for the bait. Sucker!
My point was that if the evil boomer generation wanted to screw the younger demographic they could have gone for a "B" scale but they didn't. D'uh.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 4:23 pm
See, exactly. My post wasn’t so irreverent after all. This is the mentally of most when nearing retirement. You can transfer all the wealth to the lower generation you want. The trouble is they should have more wealth cuz you floated them downstream.
You fell for the bait. Sucker!
My point was that if the evil boomer generation wanted to screw the younger demographic they could have gone for a "B" scale but they didn't. D'uh.
So what I’m hearing is that it’s still relevant if you’re thinking that it could happen. Cool.
Aerkavo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 4:22 pm
The TA is not substandard. The first 4 years pay higher than any time in history (inflation adjusted) and the later years are easily far above anything previous pilots enjoyed.
Why do you keep repeating this lie? It's blatantly false.
Get out your reading glasses and go look at the 2003 pay scale. The first 4 years of this contract aren't even close to 2003 adjusted for inflation, let alone the rest of it.
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freighter27 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 7:10 pm
The first two years (3 for rp) pay are missing, what was the rate for those years?
Just do the math. 2024 YR1 FO wages are approx 75% of YR3 wage. (A220 YR3 $116, YR1 $87)
If you apply that to 2003 wages, they were making far more than 2024. You can go as low as 55% of YR3 in 2003 and it's still higher than today's YR1 wage: 2003 YR3 $95/hr x 0.55 = $53/hr --> inflation adjusted $91hr, 2024 YR1 $87hr.
Do you have the 2003 first 2 and 3 year pay scales?
How long were those pay rates in effect?
How long were today's remaining boomers paid these amazing pay rates?
Aerkavo wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 4:22 pm
The TA is not substandard. The first 4 years pay higher than any time in history (inflation adjusted) and the later years are easily far above anything previous pilots enjoyed.
Why do you keep repeating this lie? It's blatantly false.
Get out your reading glasses and go look at the 2003 pay scale. The first 4 years of this contract aren't even close to 2003 adjusted for inflation, let alone the rest of it.
I actually meant to say the first 2 years pay higher and I don't make comparisons to anything before CCAA. That's ancient history. 4400 of AC's current pilots were hired after CCAA (I'm in that group too).
Why are you looking back at pay tables from 20 years before you were hired and complaining about them as if you lost something? The pilots who were here for that event lost something, you did not.
Sure, I can take the 2003 pay table (from before I was hired), inflation adjust it for every year and say that for every year since then I made less money than I should have made. Take the 2005 pay table and do the same thing. Now compare the TA. Compare the TA to the 10 year deal contract. I think the new TA comes out looking pretty good. Should be better, years 3 and 4 should be higher but it's a whole lot better than it's been for the last 10-15 years.
There are 43 (or 46?) biddable positions at AC. Progression through the possible positions, retirements, the economic cycle, fleet changes, bidding choices and other factors will all affect a pilot's pay. I'm sure there are anomalies.
Aerkavo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:31 am
Sure, I can take the 2003 pay table (from before I was hired), inflation adjust it for every year and say that for every year since then I made less money than I should have made. Take the 2005 pay table and do the same thing. Now compare the TA. Compare the TA to the 10 year deal contract. I think the new TA comes out looking pretty good. Should be better, years 3 and 4 should be higher but it's a whole lot better than it's been for the last 10-15 years.
Making benchmarking comparisons to bankruptcy era pay rates is Stockholm Syndrome at its worst.
The simple fact is that AC did not ‘get back’ to the buying power that was in place over two decades ago. Most affected are current junior 1500 and the next 1000-1500 to be hired. But congrats - the working conditions haven’t changed in over two decades. Possibly worse.
Aerkavo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:31 am
Sure, I can take the 2003 pay table (from before I was hired), inflation adjust it for every year and say that for every year since then I made less money than I should have made. Take the 2005 pay table and do the same thing. Now compare the TA. Compare the TA to the 10 year deal contract. I think the new TA comes out looking pretty good. Should be better, years 3 and 4 should be higher but it's a whole lot better than it's been for the last 10-15 years.
Making benchmarking comparisons to bankruptcy era pay rates is Stockholm Syndrome at its worst.
The simple fact is that AC did not ‘get back’ to the buying power that was in place over two decades ago. Most affected are current junior 1500 and the next 1000-1500 to be hired. But congrats - the working conditions haven’t changed in over two decades. Possibly worse.
rudder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:49 am
The simple fact is that AC did not ‘get back’ to the buying power that was in place over two decades ago.
You're right. It's also a simple fact that this TA is the most successful one that Air Canada pilots have ever negotiated and represents the largest increase. Anybody who thought that getting back to 2003 rates adjusted for inflation was possible was/is delusional. Even the American pilots took 2 or 3 contracts to get back to their pre-bankruptcy levels.
rudder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:49 am
The simple fact is that AC did not ‘get back’ to the buying power that was in place over two decades ago.
You're right. It's also a simple fact that this TA is the most successful one that Air Canada pilots have ever negotiated and represents the largest increase. Anybody who thought that getting back to 2003 rates adjusted for inflation was possible was/is delusional. Even the American pilots took 2 or 3 contracts to get back to their pre-bankruptcy levels.
FYI - this is the third AC pilot contract since bankruptcy.
In any case, COLA adjusted pre-bankruptcy pay was a goal, not necessarily a deal breaker. It’s simply that the result when measured against that specific objective is grossly disparate within the demographic based on position and tenure hence the clear lack of uniformity in pilot reaction to the TA.
rudder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:49 am
The simple fact is that AC did not ‘get back’ to the buying power that was in place over two decades ago.
You're right. It's also a simple fact that this TA is the most successful one that Air Canada pilots have ever negotiated and represents the largest increase. Anybody who thought that getting back to 2003 rates adjusted for inflation was possible was/is delusional. Even the American pilots took 2 or 3 contracts to get back to their pre-bankruptcy levels.
You are the embodiment of the stereotypical Canadian pilot that doesn't know their worth. You make the company's job of keeping WAWCON suppressed easy. Prior to the TA, were you telling 98% of your fellow pilots that a "World Class Contract" was delusional?
It's amazing how many people out there will accept an offer just because there are some improvements. The goal was not achieved with this....well... the company's was. AC's big win was destroying the groundswell of unity. They knew they could always count on the pilots that are "realistic" and would graciously accept whatever bone the company threw their way. Make no mistake, the ones saying, "We'll get 'em on the next one," will be voting "yes" again to the next sub-WCC TA.
Optimus Primer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 4:11 pm
You are the embodiment of the stereotypical Canadian pilot that doesn't know their worth. You make the company's job of keeping WAWCON suppressed easy. Prior to the TA, were you telling 98% of your fellow pilots that a "World Class Contract" was delusional?
It's amazing how many people out there will accept an offer just because there are some improvements. The goal was not achieved with this....well... the company's was. AC's big win was destroying the groundswell of unity. They knew they could always count on the pilots that are "realistic" and would graciously accept whatever bone the company threw their way. Make no mistake, the ones saying, "We'll get 'em on the next one," will be voting "yes" again to the next sub-WCC TA.
I am so interested to see the next 2 or 3 bargaining cycles. I won't be around but I am curious to see the great successes achieved by the current juniors who, apparently, know exactly what should be done.
I don't know if you're actually junior or, for that matter, who anyone on this anonymous forum is but attached my reply to your post because it was a convenient place.
Optimus Primer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 4:11 pm
You are the embodiment of the stereotypical Canadian pilot that doesn't know their worth. You make the company's job of keeping WAWCON suppressed easy. Prior to the TA, were you telling 98% of your fellow pilots that a "World Class Contract" was delusional?
It's amazing how many people out there will accept an offer just because there are some improvements. The goal was not achieved with this....well... the company's was. AC's big win was destroying the groundswell of unity. They knew they could always count on the pilots that are "realistic" and would graciously accept whatever bone the company threw their way. Make no mistake, the ones saying, "We'll get 'em on the next one," will be voting "yes" again to the next sub-WCC TA.
I am so interested to see the next 2 or 3 bargaining cycles. I won't be around but I am curious to see the great successes achieved by the current juniors who, apparently, know exactly what should be done.
I don't know if you're actually junior or, for that matter, who anyone on this anonymous forum is but attached my reply to your post because it was a convenient place.
First you need to remove the current MEC & Vice Chair who led this pilot group into the dumpster.
Worked out great for me but I don't think I've seen unity trashed so fast and so abruptly in my career and I've been around through mergers & concessionary contracts.
They won't have the creditabily to run the next round of negotiations
rudder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:49 am
The simple fact is that AC did not ‘get back’ to the buying power that was in place over two decades ago.
You're right. It's also a simple fact that this TA is the most successful one that Air Canada pilots have ever negotiated and represents the largest increase. Anybody who thought that getting back to 2003 rates adjusted for inflation was possible was/is delusional. Even the American pilots took 2 or 3 contracts to get back to their pre-bankruptcy levels.
Didn't you say you were a No vote a week ago? Why are you now pumping this contract so hard?
