First Air off course

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photofly
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Re: First Air off course

Post by photofly »

trey kule wrote:Photo...I dont see where reporting your incompetence (which is different from negligence) is part of their program, and I am actually a bit familiar with it.
Well, if you read the program description it says:

"The FAA offers ASRS reporters further guarantees and incentives to report. It has committed itself not to use ASRS information against reporters in enforcement actions. It has also chosen to waive fines and penalties, subject to certain limitations, for unintentional violations of federal aviation statutes and regulations which are reported to ASRS. "

Being negligent isn't exactly the same as being incompetent, but the two do cover a lot of the same ground. Both can show up as "unintentional violations of federal aviation statutes and regulations", and the FAA thinks it's better to cut some pilots some slack from an otherwise well-deserved fate in return for encouraging an open reporting culture.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by trey kule »

subject to certain limitations
Notice those words?

Then take a moment and read a bit more as to what their objectives are.

I think if you take the time to familiarize yourself with the whole program you will see negligence , both wilful and gross , are part of the program limitations.

Also, firing a pilot is not always about punitive reaction. In many cases it is because a company cannot risk a repeat and the attendant media stating that the pilot had done it before.

I know of more than a few pilots who screwed up big time...got fired. Learned their lesson, and got rehired somewhere else and went onto have good careers. But I have also had the misfortune to know pilots who screwed up big more than once. And the FAA studies actually have previous accidents/incidents as one of the top ten identifiers for pilots who will have accidents.
As company management they would have to consider this even if it is not popular with the pilots working for them
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Re: First Air off course

Post by photofly »

Here are the ASRS Enforcement restriction limitations:
Enforcement Restrictions. The FAA considers the filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII or the 14 CFR to be indicative of a constructive attitude. Such an attitude will tend to prevent future violations. Accordingly, although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed if:
The violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;
The violation did not involve a criminal offense, accident, or action under 49 U.S.C. § 44709, which discloses a lack of qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded from this policy;
The person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years prior to the date of occurrence; and
The person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, or date when the person became aware or should have been aware of the violation, he or she completed and delivered or mailed a written report of the incident or occurrence to NASA.
Before we dive into an argument about what constitutes "a lack of ... competency", let's look at Transport Canada's enforcement manual (admittedly a different organization) and what it has to say about incompetence":
incompetent—Lacking the knowledge, ability or fitness necessary for effective action; unable to meet
specified requirements; not legally qualified.
A judgement of incompetence doesn't mean you did the wrong thing - once, or even twice. It means the inability to do it right, ever.

And also let's look at Staff Instruction SI SUR-014 (https://www.tc.gc.ca/ca-opssvs/si-sur-014.pdf) on the subject of "Suspension or Cancellation of Canadian Aviation Documents for Safety Reasons"
(3) For the purpose of this SI, incompetence is the inability to perform activities that are authorized in
a CAD in compliance with the regulations and standards applicable to that type of activity. An
assemblage of evidence that collectively demonstrates an inability to comply, over a reasonably
lengthy period of time, demonstrates a state of incompetence.
(4) Repeated non-compliant behaviour and a history of non-compliant acts on behalf of a CAD holder
may be an indication of incompetence; however, it should not be assumed that this is the case. In
order to support a certificate action based on the incompetence of a CAD holder, it must be
demonstrated that the repetitive non-compliant acts are the result of an inability to comply rather
than an unwillingness to comply or a desire or need to be non-compliant in order to further other
needs such as a business or financial goal.
These pilots had not demonstrated incompetence, unless you believe they were basically incapable of navigating the flight correctly.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by trey kule »

Not sure where you felt I suggested they were incompetent at all. I understand they were a fairly experienced crew.
In any event, I must be off to work to once again, demonstrate my competence and try not to be negligent.

But it is good to know that I can self report if I do screw up.......and get caught.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by photofly »

ASRS isn't for use in cases of incompetence. But I don't see anything about not being applicable to gross negligence. In fact, negligence - gross or otherwise - seems to be exactly for what the programme was designed to give immunity. Does it say otherwise, somewhere?

The FAA seems to think it's a good idea, even if others don't.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by GyvAir »

Liquid Charlie wrote:
That would be NIGHT
Illya
:D
Ah... Thank you. I was unfamiliar with that particular adage.
I guess then you're not in keeping with the travel habits of 70's Canadian rock icons?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3STt8o5qHw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8R6owKJ1S8
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Re: First Air off course

Post by flyinthebug »

trey kule wrote:The comments about self reporting are interesting. To the best of my knowledge SMS was never intended to deal with pilot negligence, if that was the case here.

But I can see it being used as a get out jail free card. Screw up. Get caught. And then self report and claim that means there should be no punitive action...hell yes, this is all about company culture. This crew is nothing but victims of the company culture. And of course the machinery.. No way are they responsible at all. We should commend them for overcoming the barriers and getting the plane safely back on the ground.
Yep,, I can see that clearly. I. Wonder if any pilots have been caught showing up drunk to fly and then when it is discovered, self report.

I would expect that the circumstances were clear enough , and serious enough, that the company was able to take immediate action. This was not a little oopsie.

It is quite commendable that so many here seem to think what they did was OK as long as they self reported. I have to wonder though, how many of them would want their families sitting in the back with this crew flying. Or how many of First Air's other customers.

Some of you who enjoy ignoring SOPs ( which BTW is perfectly OK if you claim the CP does not always follow them....your word is gold). Chatting or texting when you should be flying. Failing to do a proper monitoring job so that an error gets missed, seem to think there should be no consequences...or maybe feeling bad and promising never to do again what you never should have done to start with makes everything OK.

But then I am an old guy from the jurassic age, when people took ownership for their actions.
Well said! +1
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Re: First Air off course

Post by pelmet »

flyinthebug wrote:Well said! +1
flyinthebug wrote: Don't worry though, the good old (ALPA) union always bail out the weak, lazy and downright stupid.
Flyinthebug,

Don't you think it is kind of odd to be running around here condemning this crew with insults for their error yet you admitted about a year ago in this post....

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 61#p834061

....that you ran out of gas and trashed an airplane. All because you didn't bother to check the fuel level. Which of the three categories that you mentioned above does that fall into? Feel free to choose more than one.

I suspect that all of the holier than thou people ranting here have made a fairly major mistake in their career(probably much earlier in their career) and gotten away with it. You say how you have fully accepted responsibility for your incident. Well, some other people have done the same.

How ironic that when somebody merely mentioned your accident, your response was...
flyinthebug wrote:I hope you feel better berating people for things we know we screwed up.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by pdw »

Pelmet, not sure flyinthebug got 'bailed out' on the aspect of the fuel failing to be in there (just that he's always made it clear there was assurance by trusted volks that it had fuel for the short test/repositioning flight), and there being that tiny similarity that here it is also a team effort to keep this plane steared successfully on course which has failed. I know I know ... we checked the caps thousands of times ... no problem ... it's the PIC's business etc etc

The PIC is as responsible in every such case (ie his/her FO gets a "bail out" here) and regardless how these failures transpire he/she must take the hit on the record. Not so great to be the PIC in those cases ... but unless we've been there can't have the same understanding of it either.

Flyinthebug, IMO it's possible someone helped themselves to AVgas that should have been in there (some kids or just petty fuel thieves) how can we be sure, even perhaps someone far too shocked/embarassed/fearful now to admit it in the face of the disaster that unfolded back then (how do we know?); ... so it might well be the best just to let 'sleeping dogs lie' when there are certain aspects/details that are so much different in each case despite the urge for insight to compare them in hindsight far or near.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by pelmet »

My point is that perhaps being a little more humble might be a better position to take. After his accident, I don't think he would have appreciated someone mouthing off on this forum or anywhere to take his career away from him. Especially if that someone had done something far worse in the past in the same field of work and no doubt reported his error as well.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by flyinthebug »

My reply in bold and underlined.
pelmet wrote:
flyinthebug wrote:Well said! +1
flyinthebug wrote: Don't worry though, the good old (ALPA) union always bail out the weak, lazy and downright stupid.
Flyinthebug,

Don't you think it is kind of odd to be running around here condemning this crew with insults for their error yet you admitted about a year ago in this post....

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 61#p834061

....that you ran out of gas and trashed an airplane. All because you didn't bother to check the fuel level. Which of the three categories that you mentioned above does that fall into? Feel free to choose more than one.

What I find odd is how after 7 pages of this thread, you decide to attack me personally? I accepted full responsibility for my actions that day (or lack thereof) and the consequences have been more than you could ever imagine. Im going to take pdws advice and take the high road on this one. I admitted my mistake, took responsibility for it, and accepted my consequences. How does that even remotely relate to what we are discussing with 2 737 pilots flying 225 nm off course and could have been much further if not for ATC waking them up.

I believe the point trey kule was trying to make with his post that I +1`ed, is in this day and age too many people wont accept responsibility for their own actions and want to point the finger at everyone else. I agreed with his sediments on that part of the subject and liked his post. I crashed an airplane and it was my mistake(s) that caused it. Does that mean I am not entitled to an opinion? That the other 5000 hours and decades I flew accident and incident free were of no value? Ive admitted it many times publicly before...but that doesn't mean I am not entitled to an opinion of what I consider very poor airmanship and lack of accountability by the crew...that will likely run to the union to try to save their jobs.


I suspect that all of the holier than thou people ranting here have made a fairly major mistake in their career(probably much earlier in their career) and gotten away with it. You say how you have fully accepted responsibility for your incident. Well, some other people have done the same.

Im happy for the "others" that have done the same. So why are you berating me for doing what you seem happy to point out that others have done and accepted responsibility for their actions?

How ironic that when somebody merely mentioned your accident, your response was...
flyinthebug wrote:I hope you feel better berating people for things we know we screwed up.
Do you want me to be proud of it? What response were you hoping to elicit from me with that type of statement?

Now ill take pdws advice and not add any further fuel to the fire you seem to want to start with me.


Fly safe all.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by pelmet »

flyinthebug wrote:Now ill take pdws advice and not add any further fuel to the fire you seem to want to start with me.[/b][/u]
Perhaps because you have none left.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by trey kule »

Pelmet, I am not sure your personal attack is on topic or even warrented.

Your claim that everyone here has made a potentially fatal boo boo,, may or may not be correct. It is one of those truthisms that just sound so good and no one can refute it. But to go on and then draw conclusions from it is a bit fool hardy.

I have known, over the years, many pilots who made big mistakes , and then went on to finish up great careers. Admitting them on a public forum with the attendent riducle , I would think, takes courage and humility. Bringing it up again has no class at all.

The wuestion here, which has never been answered, and lmaybe never will, is exactly why the crew went so far off course. The company reaction would appear to indicate it was a willful case of gross negligence.
But, as others have pointed out. Maybe it was a knee jerk reaction...

It is the speckosters that trot out things like self reporting which show a remarkable misunderstanding of what an SMS program philosophy and objectives are that I find interesting. Kind of like the college posters who have had its OK to do anything as long as its briefed drilled into their heads, and have gone on to extend that to literally anything.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by flyinthebug »

pelmet wrote:My point is that perhaps being a little more humble might be a better position to take. After his accident, I don't think he would have appreciated someone mouthing off on this forum or anywhere to take his career away from him. Especially if that someone had done something far worse in the past in the same field of work and no doubt reported his error as well.
Ok pelmet...

So I just skimmed through the 7 pages and see I only posted once. I also said in my post that firing them was a bit over the top, although I believed that a suspension or demotion was in order. How does that make me not humble? My post was not aggressive other than I expressed my dislike for unions. I do dislike unions on every level. They are not doing what they were intended to do when they first were started.

MY "rant" if you want to call it that, was more directed to unions and how they bail out people that "sometimes" don't deserve it. I also see you attacked learning2fly by insulting him asking if he was a pilot because you didn't like his post either.

Listen, my only point to this whole incident is that people were moaning about the lack of modern equipment in these aircraft and how that contributed to the incident. That's just plain BS and if you have any number of years in the industry, you`ll know what I am referring to. We ran around the north as recent as the 90s with nothing more than a functioning NDB and a company approach into 100s of these northern destinations. I have shot more non precision approaches in my career than precision ones. I didn't know how to use nor did I see any GPS in aircraft I flew until 1998. They are a wonderful piece of technology but with the new EFIS cockpits and all the advancements in technology, you should still be able to shoot a non precision approach, or fly a straight line without them. We got by without all the fancy technology for many years before it came out. Im shocked at how many new pilots cannot read a damn map! They feel they don't need to know as there is system after system that protects them from ever getting lost.

Maybe First Air should do some re training for their pilots and re write their SOPs as obviously they aren't working very well in their present format. Maybe a course on using NDBs as a back up to the back up would be in order? I don't and didn't want to see this crew lose their jobs. I do however want to see them receive punishment that fits the "crime". First air may have over reacted by firing them, but as has been pointed out in this thread...with the recent accident and very recent report, maybe that was the only option they had? I know a guy who landed gear up in a 414 and he never flew again after being fired...so no, I do not want to see this crew lose their career or livelihood, but the Skipper could use 6 months in the right seat and the FO could sweep a few floors and ill bet they set that damn old NDB every flight they ever command again.

That's all I got.
Fly safe Pelmet (if you really are a pilot?) 8)
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Re: First Air off course

Post by pelmet »

flyinthebug wrote: MY "rant" if you want to call it that, was more directed to unions and how they bail out people that "sometimes" don't deserve it.
Sorry, I wasn't aware that while in mid-paragraph on the subject at hand that you had decided to change the subject to union issues in other cases.

It looks like we have two cases where errors were made resulting in an incident. It sounds like there was further background information in your case that was part of the chain. It is almost certainly the case here as well although the details remain unknown to us. Why do I say that? Because there is almost always some background details that are part of these incidents.

You mention your 5000 safe flying hours in 5 decades should count for something. That is a great point and should be considered here as well except that it is probably a lot more than 5000 hours.
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Last edited by pelmet on Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by flyinthebug »

pelmet wrote:
flyinthebug wrote:Now ill take pdws advice and not add any further fuel to the fire you seem to want to start with me.[/b][/u]
Perhaps because you have none left.
Really Pelmet? That's all you got? Pure class.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

FTB....Don't encourage the Troll.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

pelmet wrote:
flyinthebug wrote: MY "rant" if you want to call it that, was more directed to unions and how they bail out people that "sometimes" don't deserve it.
Sorry, I wasn't aware that while in mid-paragraph on the subject at hand that you had decided to change the subject to union issues in other cases.

It looks like we have two cases where errors were made resulting in an incident. It sounds like there was further background information in your case that was part of the chain. It is almost certainly the case here as well although the details remain unknown to us. Why do I say that? Because there is almost always some background details that are part of these incidents.

You mention your 5000 safe flying hours in 5 decades should count for something. That is a great point and should be considered here as well except that it is probably a lot more than 5000 hours.
All of which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the subject of the thread. Total baiting.
Have to agree with FTB. There ARE times when pilots just don't deserve to be "rescued" by unions. Not sure if this is one of these cases or not. However, bringing up an incident in one's past in no way negates that person's credibility.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by Unit 969 »

Hi all,
I am not a pilot, but is it possible the GPS was navigating off of magnetic north and not true north?
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Re: First Air off course

Post by Donald »

Unit 969 wrote:Hi all,
I am not a pilot, but is it possible the GPS was navigating off of magnetic north and not true north?

Makes no difference with the Universal FMS (as installed in this aircraft as I understand).

As long as the correct waypoints are entered, and you are coupled with the FMS, the aircraft will track from A to B on the magenta line.

Switching from MAG to TRUE or vice-versa will just change the track headings.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by bobcaygeon »

First Air likely fired the crew partially for PR reasons.
I bet you that they will quietly get their jobs back later after ALPA fights it.
My direction from ALPA when the company violated contractual terms but the actions didn't compromise safety or were illegal
then you just did it and grieved afterwards.

Unpaid suspensions etc usually turned into paid vacations for the crew members after the union grieved it.

BTW NASA only now has these programs in place after 2 space shuttle fatal screw ups (both problems were known about beforehand) that were caused by organizational culture. Who knows how many other issues occurred as well that we just didn't hear about. I also wouldn't be surprised that their culture is shifting negatively with the continual budget cuts that have occurred. Safety costs money.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by trey kule »

Safety costs money
So do preventable accidents. Which do you think costs more?
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Re: First Air off course

Post by CFR »

trey kule wrote:
Safety costs money
So do preventable accidents. Which do you think costs more?
Having been in the safety game with a big federal department for around 30 years I can say that the unofficial motto for many departments is "Safety is our number one priority UNLESS it costs anything" The federal gov't usually tops the list as having the worst accident rate amongst federally regulated entities and is very high when measured against other activities, and yet enforcement action against the crown is nearly non-existent. Expecting anything nearing reasonable oversight or enforcement from HRSDC (or whatever they call themselves these days) is a joke.
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Re: First Air off course

Post by co-joe »

Donald wrote:...
As long as the correct waypoints are entered, and you are coupled with the FMS, the aircraft will track from A to B on the magenta line.

Switching from MAG to TRUE or vice-versa will just change the track headings.
The magenta line on the non existent Multi Function Display/ Wx radar? At best the FMS displays track bar indication on the HSI (likely the captain's only), which can also show centred if it's off, tracking a VOR with the wrong radial selected, not tracking anything and the TO/From/ OFF flag gets stuck...or any number of other situations.

If the company *GAF, they would upgrade avionics to improve situational awareness. Firing pilots makes it look like they *GAF, but really it's just a way of chucking someone else under the bus for your own incompetence.

*Note: definition #2:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gaf
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Re: First Air off course

Post by frozen solid »

I heard somewhere though, I forget where, that it is, or at least used to be, possible under most circumstances to get from Rankin Inlet to Iqaluit with the equipment they had. Some old guy told me. They used to look at the instruments or something. Something about numbers and turning the plane so some needles were pointing at some numbers, or not pointing at some other numbers, or something along those lines. I'm not sure. Sounds like a lot of work to me.
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