WestJet Mainline/Encore Hiring pool

[Mr. North]

Hi guys/gals,
I do apologize if this horse has already been flogged to death, but I haven't been able to find an answer in previous posts.

The situation I'm in is that I don't think I can afford to go from my present position as a B1900 captain to Encore FO, but at the same time I don't think I have quite enough time to be competitive for a direct WJ Mainline spot. I'm somewhere in the middle.
I understand the D.E. Q400 Captain spots are now done, but on the Matrix that Dave P posted I believe I have more than enough "time on similar type" to be eligible for an upgrade at Encore should I get hired there. On the matrix it says 3000 TT/1000 DHC-8 or similar. I'm sitting between 3000-3500TT with 2000 hrs Saab 340 FO (listed on matrix as similar ac type) time and 500+ command on the B1900.
- Should I bite the pay bullet for a while as a an Encore FO and hope for a quick upgrade? How long would I be sitting right seat before I could expect an upgrade? While more direct-entry captain spots open up?
- Or should I wait a while longer to build up more time where I am to hope to get a direct Mainline spot eventually? I feel like that door is closing quickly though and I might miss it? Or are off the street hires to the 737 expected to continue for a few more years?

Many thanks

I am in the exact same boat as you bud and I have thought long and hard about what I should do next. I'm a DHC6 captain with 5k TT. I was offered an interview last year as an FO (quick upgrade to captain), but I turned it down because the pay was literally less then half of what I make now. Not to mention relocating to CYYC and working twice as much? It didn't make sense. After 12 years of flying, and knowing I'd have to take a pay cut to make the big jump, that's still a hard pill to swallow. I know I'm worth more than that so I gave them the cold shoulder expecting to find something that paid me appropriately since there were other opportunities out there, not to mention a miracle call from AC. ...Fast forward to today; oil patch is drying up (at least for the time being), several operators have a hiring freeze if they aren't already laying off. Vacation airlines have their own problems, and AC has announced an 80% flow through with Jazz whenever they decide to start hiring again. Are you and I gonna make the list of 20% who come in off the street? Not with our mid level experience... I'm not one to say I'm entitled to work at AC but it sure is frustrating when they move the goal posts this late into the game. For years it was "go up North, work hard, and get oodles of multi-pic". Been there done that, so what now? Ride out your "cushy" 704 captain job until AC or mainline WJ starts hiring again? Could months ...or YEARS!! In the mean time 100+ pilots will be ahead of you at Encore, and AC may never call! Where will you be then?! Sucking a dry tit that's what.

From my understanding the current upgrade times at Encore are anywhere from 6-12 months, DOE. There won't be any more DEC's. I sympathise with your dilemma of applying to Encore now (and waiting years to go mainline) vs. gaining another 500+ hours and going direct 737. Is it worth obtaining the extra experience while 100+ pilots jump ahead of you in seniority at Encore/WJ? In my opinion it's not, but we are in the business of risk management. To each their own.

You're gonna want to budget for your time in the right seat. Some of my peers lament my complaints about pay, saying they survive off less, and to their credit they do. But when you make the ok money that we do, and own a house, pay bills, have a family, etc... Its hard to cut that in half again, even for a short while. You have to hedge your bets though and think long term. Encore is the only airline readily offering a seniority number right now, might as well take it. If AC calls in a year or so you can make a decision then but at least you'll have a seat at WJ no matter what. And if it all sucks, well we can always go back to our plum 704 job.

That's my thoughts, if anyone else has some constructive criticism, please share!

[loopa]

I feel for you guys. It's definitely a tough spot to be in.

I'm by no means an expert on anything I'm about to say, so please just understand it's an opinion. Don't go all touchy feely on me

I'm of firm belief that the Jazz/Sky/Evas/Ggn mess that we are seeing on the AC regional flying will ultimately push consumers to WJ's regional flying. Even the business travellers who do a lot of inter/domestic flying. Why? The incentives of flying on AC are diminishing by the numbers, especially regional flying. Look at what has happened to the incentives that were in place for business travellers who were once able to maintain their super-elite 100k status at AC? It has become tougher. On the flip side, look at the amazing incentives the TEAL/SILVER/GOLD status brings you as a regular WJ traveller. Quite attractive for the frequent flier!

Anyway, where am I going with this? As AC tries to throw their regional flying to the lowest bidder, they are going to get what they have already gotten. Disgruntled, unappreciated, and overworked employees that probably don't value customer service due to their distaste for the company's morals. It's quite simple actually: When you feel the company doesn't care about you, you stop caring about the company, and customer service flies out the window. Let's put it into perspective, how happy would you be spending 12 years up north, only to find out the best job you can accept at the airline level is at GGN for 31k/yr flying an RJ? 34k/yr flying a Q400 for Jazz... 28k/yr flying EVAS 1900F/O? ETC... with no real incentives besides a long wait until your spot frees at AC... if it will? The same goes across all jobs at those companies. It will show, the regional consumers will be even more disgruntled flying the AC product domestically, and consumers who haven't already switched, will slowly switch to WJ's product. Add to the mix a booming Encore, and you have a set up where Encore will dominate regional flying. It's just a matter of time.

That being said, while I'm not in your position, I would suggest to bite the bullet and go. You will see captain very quickly, and if you follow WJ's history, it only makes sense that things will improve to the standard of everything else that is already great about Encore/WJ product.

Hope that perspective helps bring about some insightful thinking on why I think biting the bullet and going to Encore is a good thing for someone whose long term goal is to fly in the airlines - especially if you're in a position where the 704 job is no longer where you want to be at. I just can't see how you'll be happy there in 10 years if you're already thinking about leaving.

[CanadianEh]

Wanna fly big metal and be paid well and appreciated? Go overseas!

[BverLuver]

I have no dog in this hunt, so we are clear. However, threatening to 'out' another user is not cool. What is cool is the tropical vacation you can go on for the next two weeks, while thinking about why we all really, really try hard to follow the forum rules.

//Sulako

[jjj]

I think Mr. North gets it.

Good on ya for carving out a nice life. When I was at your experience level I had no life - no wife - no kids - no house. I sacrificed much so I could get ahead in this business. I was one of the fortunate few who was easily able to survive my first couple of years at WS because I was living a paltry existence in the first place.

Not being able to take our experience and pay grade as we move laterally is in the DNA of North American aviation - it sucks.

Enjoy your life as it sounds like you're doing just fine. If you find a way to make a go of things and you sign up then it will be good to have you aboard as you seem to have a good head on your shoulders which is all I ever hope to be paired up with.

Cheers.

JJ

[Mr. North]

Appreciate the remarks Triple J. I've really enjoyed my career this far. On a bit of a scenic route to the airlines perhaps but I don't regret anything, rather I feel fortunate for where I am. Not to say I didn't make any sacrifices, there were plenty ...including lots of broken hearts left in the dust!

BverLuver, I would not get so bent out of shape for the decisions people make. This is a good discussion. So he's pro Encore, so what? This is the WestJet forum. You know, I went through a good part of my career judging others by the moves they made until I had to make some tough calls myself. People have their reasons for doing what they do and quite often they're not readily apparent. You can talk about the state of this industry all you want but I stopped criticizing my peers long ago. And I'm better off for it.

[BverLuver]

Mr. North,

I have no problem with anyone professing their love for anyone or anything or standing up for what they believe in! It's when someone directly insults people for making decisions they make for whatever reason they make them, and turns around and does the EXACT same thing they are insulting with eyes wide open that I have a problem.

BL

[Northern Snow Goose]

Hello YOW
There are a few direct positions to be hired this year however my interviewed pool is large enough to cover the available spots for 2015.
I suspect not many more WJ interviews will be granted this year unless something drastic changes in the next month or so.
Cheers

Hi DaveP
Quick Question....
The Job posting for Mainline that was recently removed after Christmas, was to cover the Interviewed Pool that may or may not cover the available spots for 2015?
Or have you already interviewed possible candidates that applied on the job posting prior to Christmas and are now siting in the pool.

Thank-You for your time!
N.S.G

[PROC_HDG]

I feel for you guys. It's definitely a tough spot to be in.

I'm by no means an expert on anything I'm about to say, so please just understand it's an opinion. Don't go all touchy feely on me

I'm of firm belief that the Jazz/Sky/Evas/Ggn mess that we are seeing on the AC regional flying will ultimately push consumers to WJ's regional flying. Even the business travellers who do a lot of inter/domestic flying. Why? The incentives of flying on AC are diminishing by the numbers, especially regional flying. Look at what has happened to the incentives that were in place for business travellers who were once able to maintain their super-elite 100k status at AC? It has become tougher. On the flip side, look at the amazing incentives the TEAL/SILVER/GOLD status brings you as a regular WJ traveller. Quite attractive for the frequent flier!

Anyway, where am I going with this? As AC tries to throw their regional flying to the lowest bidder, they are going to get what they have already gotten. Disgruntled, unappreciated, and overworked employees that probably don't value customer service due to their distaste for the company's morals. It's quite simple actually: When you feel the company doesn't care about you, you stop caring about the company, and customer service flies out the window. Let's put it into perspective, how happy would you be spending 12 years up north, only to find out the best job you can accept at the airline level is at GGN for 31k/yr flying an RJ? 34k/yr flying a Q400 for Jazz... 28k/yr flying EVAS 1900F/O? ETC... with no real incentives besides a long wait until your spot frees at AC... if it will? The same goes across all jobs at those companies. It will show, the regional consumers will be even more disgruntled flying the AC product domestically, and consumers who haven't already switched, will slowly switch to WJ's product. Add to the mix a booming Encore, and you have a set up where Encore will dominate regional flying. It's just a matter of time.

That being said, while I'm not in your position, I would suggest to bite the bullet and go. You will see captain very quickly, and if you follow WJ's history, it only makes sense that things will improve to the standard of everything else that is already great about Encore/WJ product.

Hope that perspective helps bring about some insightful thinking on why I think biting the bullet and going to Encore is a good thing for someone whose long term goal is to fly in the airlines - especially if you're in a position where the 704 job is no longer where you want to be at. I just can't see how you'll be happy there in 10 years if you're already thinking about leaving.

Loopa, are you literally hooked up to a Koolaid IV?? AC is making record profits and recording record load factors THROUGHOUT the network, express and mainline. The business people you refer to would rather walk from YUL to YYZ than do it in a 737-600 with no first class(if it isn't downsized to an encore Q on the day they fly). You're sitting here talking about how shitty it is working for an AC regional feeder; Please tell me you work at encore!? It must be nice to pretend the company cares about you so you can provide such a great customer experience!! And frankly, how is the incentive at Encore any better than Jazz? A pilot who gets on at Encore tomorrow is looking at just as long a wait to get to mainline as somebody at Jazz. Even at 50% flow.

Encore is no more booming than SKV or GGN; the only difference is that they haven't existed until 2 years ago. Get real, a regional is a regional. And having flown on Encore multiple times, I can confirm the pax experience is just as garbage as the competition.

PROC_HDG

[loopa]

I feel for you guys. It's definitely a tough spot to be in.

I'm by no means an expert on anything I'm about to say, so please just understand it's an opinion. Don't go all touchy feely on me

I'm of firm belief that the Jazz/Sky/Evas/Ggn mess that we are seeing on the AC regional flying will ultimately push consumers to WJ's regional flying. Even the business travellers who do a lot of inter/domestic flying. Why? The incentives of flying on AC are diminishing by the numbers, especially regional flying. Look at what has happened to the incentives that were in place for business travellers who were once able to maintain their super-elite 100k status at AC? It has become tougher. On the flip side, look at the amazing incentives the TEAL/SILVER/GOLD status brings you as a regular WJ traveller. Quite attractive for the frequent flier!

Anyway, where am I going with this? As AC tries to throw their regional flying to the lowest bidder, they are going to get what they have already gotten. Disgruntled, unappreciated, and overworked employees that probably don't value customer service due to their distaste for the company's morals. It's quite simple actually: When you feel the company doesn't care about you, you stop caring about the company, and customer service flies out the window. Let's put it into perspective, how happy would you be spending 12 years up north, only to find out the best job you can accept at the airline level is at GGN for 31k/yr flying an RJ? 34k/yr flying a Q400 for Jazz... 28k/yr flying EVAS 1900F/O? ETC... with no real incentives besides a long wait until your spot frees at AC... if it will? The same goes across all jobs at those companies. It will show, the regional consumers will be even more disgruntled flying the AC product domestically, and consumers who haven't already switched, will slowly switch to WJ's product. Add to the mix a booming Encore, and you have a set up where Encore will dominate regional flying. It's just a matter of time.

That being said, while I'm not in your position, I would suggest to bite the bullet and go. You will see captain very quickly, and if you follow WJ's history, it only makes sense that things will improve to the standard of everything else that is already great about Encore/WJ product.

Hope that perspective helps bring about some insightful thinking on why I think biting the bullet and going to Encore is a good thing for someone whose long term goal is to fly in the airlines - especially if you're in a position where the 704 job is no longer where you want to be at. I just can't see how you'll be happy there in 10 years if you're already thinking about leaving.

Loopa, are you literally hooked up to a Koolaid IV?? AC is making record profits and recording record load factors THROUGHOUT the network, express and mainline. The business people you refer to would rather walk from YUL to YYZ than do it in a 737-600 with no first class(if it isn't downsized to an encore Q on the day they fly). You're sitting here talking about how shitty it is working for an AC regional feeder; Please tell me you work at encore!? It must be nice to pretend the company cares about you so you can provide such a great customer experience!! And frankly, how is the incentive at Encore any better than Jazz? A pilot who gets on at Encore tomorrow is looking at just as long a wait to get to mainline as somebody at Jazz. Even at 50% flow.

Encore is no more booming than SKV or GGN; the only difference is that they haven't existed until 2 years ago. Get real, a regional is a regional. And having flown on Encore multiple times, I can confirm the pax experience is just as garbage as the competition.

PROC_HDG

What are your reasons for thinking the incentives are equal? Are you just considering the time from Jazz to Mainline?

Why do you figure there are record profits across AC regional flying?

And no, I do not work for Encore. But I do believe they have been extremely successful with their start up, and will do extremely well. If I was a betting man, I would bet on Encore's expansion going way past 45 frames.

I could be wrong, but as of today that's my opinion.

[PROC_HDG]

What are your reasons for thinking the incentives are equal? Are you just considering the time from Jazz to Mainline?

Why do you figure there are record profits across AC regional flying?

And no, I do not work for Encore. But I do believe they have been extremely successful with their start up, and will do extremely well. If I was a betting man, I would bet on Encore's expansion going way past 45 frames.

I could be wrong, but as of today that's my opinion.

Both JZA and Encore now have flow agreements. Both have abysmal sub-$40/hr starting pay. Jazz at least offers a DC pension and the potential for 80% flow to mainline.

Encore isn't some kind of ground-breaking experiment. It's a regional. It exists to lower cost. Of course it's been successful.

PROC_HDG

[loopa]

What are your reasons for thinking the incentives are equal? Are you just considering the time from Jazz to Mainline?

Why do you figure there are record profits across AC regional flying?

And no, I do not work for Encore. But I do believe they have been extremely successful with their start up, and will do extremely well. If I was a betting man, I would bet on Encore's expansion going way past 45 frames.

I could be wrong, but as of today that's my opinion.

Both JZA and Encore now have flow agreements. Both have abysmal sub-$40/hr starting pay. Jazz at least offers a DC pension and the potential for 80% flow to mainline.

Encore isn't some kind of ground-breaking experiment. It's a regional. It exists to lower cost. Of course it's been successful.

PROC_HDG

I think at the end of the day our disagreement is an indication to what incentives you value. Somebody may value a DC pension plan over ESP/Profit Sharing. Someone else may value the vice versa. Someone may value hitting 75k/yr as a Q400 Captain by year 4 at Encore over having to wait for 7+ years to make 75k/yr as an F/O at Jazz. Of course AC offers 80% flow through, they have 1400+ and then another hundred some pilot's from the other CPA's that have to flow through. Encore is offering what... 50% at 200 pilot's today? With their goal to get to 100%? They have ticked off 25%, 50%, 75 and 100 is just around the corner as soon as the company is big enough to sustain it.

So I guess one can't fault another or call one and another a koolaid addict just for having their reasons to believe one is better than the other. I believe Encore is better, clearly you believe Jazz is better. At the end of the day it doesn't matter who you like, do what makes you happy and gives you the career you're interested in.

Still waiting for an answer to my other question.

[PROC_HDG]

I think at the end of the day our disagreement is an indication to what incentives you value. Somebody may value a DC pension plan over ESP/Profit Sharing. Someone else may value the vice versa. Someone may value hitting 75k/yr as a Q400 Captain by year 4 at Encore over having to wait for 7+ years to make 75k/yr as an F/O at Jazz. Of course AC offers 80% flow through, they have 1400+ and then another hundred some pilot's from the other CPA's that have to flow through. Encore is offering what... 50% at 200 pilot's today? With their goal to get to 100%? They have ticked off 25%, 50%, 75 and 100 is just around the corner as soon as the company is big enough to sustain it.

So I guess one can't fault another or call one and another a koolaid addict just for having their reasons to believe one is better than the other. I believe Encore is better, clearly you believe Jazz is better. At the end of the day it doesn't matter who you like, do what makes you happy and gives you the career you're interested in.

Still waiting for an answer to my other question.

Westjet mainline is hiring, what, 50 pilots a year? at 50% flow that's 25 a year from Encore. Frankly I wouldn't want to be getting a job at either carrier tomorrow.

I don't believe either one is better than the other, they're both regionals, they both suck. Maybe we can agree on that at least? The difference is Jazz has the protection of ALPA and an actual flow policy in place, not just some "we swear we'll get to 100%" bs. fwiw I don't work for either one.

What I first took issue with is your assertion that the AC regional feeder network is a "mess" that will drive customers away from AC towards WJ. The AC regional feeder network is no more a mess than any other feeder network; And have you flown on encore? Seriously I would rather take a covered wagon from YQT to YYZ than sit on one of their Qs for 2 hrs. A large part of Canada's domestic flyers, particularly in the east, seem to feel the same way, as AC's domestic market share is still sitting at about 58%. There is no evidence that the performance of its express carriers has driven passengers to WJ. Can you provide any?

I assume you're referring to when you asked why AC has been doing so well? I assumed that was a rhetorical question. They are doing well for the same reason WJ is doing well. They continue to increase profits while decreasing labour costs. I guess what you're getting at is that this is because of the cost cutting at the regionals. I don't see how this is any different from what WJ is doing with encore?

PROC_HDG

[loopa]

I think at the end of the day our disagreement is an indication to what incentives you value. Somebody may value a DC pension plan over ESP/Profit Sharing. Someone else may value the vice versa. Someone may value hitting 75k/yr as a Q400 Captain by year 4 at Encore over having to wait for 7+ years to make 75k/yr as an F/O at Jazz. Of course AC offers 80% flow through, they have 1400+ and then another hundred some pilot's from the other CPA's that have to flow through. Encore is offering what... 50% at 200 pilot's today? With their goal to get to 100%? They have ticked off 25%, 50%, 75 and 100 is just around the corner as soon as the company is big enough to sustain it.

So I guess one can't fault another or call one and another a koolaid addict just for having their reasons to believe one is better than the other. I believe Encore is better, clearly you believe Jazz is better. At the end of the day it doesn't matter who you like, do what makes you happy and gives you the career you're interested in.

Still waiting for an answer to my other question.

Westjet mainline is hiring, what, 50 pilots a year? at 50% flow that's 25 a year from Encore. Frankly I wouldn't want to be getting a job at either carrier tomorrow.

I don't believe either one is better than the other, they're both regionals, they both suck. Maybe we can agree on that at least? The difference is Jazz has the protection of ALPA and an actual flow policy in place, not just some "we swear we'll get to 100%" bs. fwiw I don't work for either one.

What I first took issue with is your assertion that the AC regional feeder network is a "mess" that will drive customers away from AC towards WJ. The AC regional feeder network is no more a mess than any other feeder network; And have you flown on encore? Seriously I would rather take a covered wagon from YQT to YYZ than sit on one of their Qs for 2 hrs. A large part of Canada's domestic flyers, particularly in the east, seem to feel the same way, as AC's domestic market share is still sitting at about 58%. There is no evidence that the performance of its express carriers has driven passengers to WJ. Can you provide any?

I assume you're referring to when you asked why AC has been doing so well? I assumed that was a rhetorical question. They are doing well for the same reason WJ is doing well. They continue to increase profits while decreasing labour costs. I guess what you're getting at is that this is because of the cost cutting at the regionals. I don't see how this is any different from what WJ is doing with encore?

PROC_HDG

Thanks for your response. Also, just to clarify my intent, it was an opinion. Not an assertion. It's not fact, it's purely my opinion on what will happen in the regional market. I don't think you will have any hard faceted evidence to support what I'm saying, hence why once again I say that it's purely my opinion. I'm speculating.

I also believe that at the end of the day that while Encore is growing with a boom, AC Express is diminishing. Why? AC is dominating in the long-haul sector. That's where they make money. This is evidenced by Jazz going from 122 frames to 86. Is that being offset by Sky Regional? In the time frame that Jazz is shrinking, would you not think that Encore has a tremendous opportunity to blow up the regional market with ridiculous expansion? Beyond anything we've already seen? Also, on the same token, CPA employees have less incentives (if you see it from my perspective) than Encore employees do. You may insinuate that they are regionals, so they both suck, but I am looking at what incentives makes sense for your typical 3000 hour pilot that is looking to make a choice between Team red and Team teal for their long defined airline career.

Encore
- One interview
- One List
- Carry YOS for your total time to upgrade at WJ. After 10 years total on the list, you carry YOS when you upgrade for x amount of time.
- Captain extremely quick
- More money, faster, sustained for a longer period of time.
- Flow to WJ at some point.
- Rapidly Growing Company
- ESP/Profit Share versus DC Pension Plan (if you see that as beneficial).
- 50% flow at 200 pilot's.
- Commitment to increase flow to 100%. They've already delivered on 25%, and 50%, it will happen.

Jazz
- Two interviews (One for Jazz, one for AC)
- Not one list, you don't carry YOS. Right back at the bottom with regards to scheduling, life style, command, when going to AC.
- You get 4 years Jazz pay to top up AC pay, then formula pay begins.
- A long time to be making what you would be at Encore. 7+ Years, versus 4 years to hit 75k/yr at Encore
- Flow to AC if you pass the interview
- Diminishing Company
- Your flying is competitive with the companies that can provide AC CPA flying for less. So there's no stability in your career prospective.
- DC Pension plan instead of being in control of your money as you would be with ESP/Profit Sharing.
- 80% flow at 1400+ pilot's plus GGN/EVAS/SKY

For the most part, the above are your hard facts. You have said that both suck. I say for a person making a choice, Encore wins. Once again, an opinion, not an assertion.

Thanks for your input PROC_HDG.

[PROC_HDG]

I think at the end of the day our disagreement is an indication to what incentives you value. Somebody may value a DC pension plan over ESP/Profit Sharing. Someone else may value the vice versa. Someone may value hitting 75k/yr as a Q400 Captain by year 4 at Encore over having to wait for 7+ years to make 75k/yr as an F/O at Jazz. Of course AC offers 80% flow through, they have 1400+ and then another hundred some pilot's from the other CPA's that have to flow through. Encore is offering what... 50% at 200 pilot's today? With their goal to get to 100%? They have ticked off 25%, 50%, 75 and 100 is just around the corner as soon as the company is big enough to sustain it.

So I guess one can't fault another or call one and another a koolaid addict just for having their reasons to believe one is better than the other. I believe Encore is better, clearly you believe Jazz is better. At the end of the day it doesn't matter who you like, do what makes you happy and gives you the career you're interested in.

Still waiting for an answer to my other question.

Westjet mainline is hiring, what, 50 pilots a year? at 50% flow that's 25 a year from Encore. Frankly I wouldn't want to be getting a job at either carrier tomorrow.

I don't believe either one is better than the other, they're both regionals, they both suck. Maybe we can agree on that at least? The difference is Jazz has the protection of ALPA and an actual flow policy in place, not just some "we swear we'll get to 100%" bs. fwiw I don't work for either one.

What I first took issue with is your assertion that the AC regional feeder network is a "mess" that will drive customers away from AC towards WJ. The AC regional feeder network is no more a mess than any other feeder network; And have you flown on encore? Seriously I would rather take a covered wagon from YQT to YYZ than sit on one of their Qs for 2 hrs. A large part of Canada's domestic flyers, particularly in the east, seem to feel the same way, as AC's domestic market share is still sitting at about 58%. There is no evidence that the performance of its express carriers has driven passengers to WJ. Can you provide any?

I assume you're referring to when you asked why AC has been doing so well? I assumed that was a rhetorical question. They are doing well for the same reason WJ is doing well. They continue to increase profits while decreasing labour costs. I guess what you're getting at is that this is because of the cost cutting at the regionals. I don't see how this is any different from what WJ is doing with encore?

PROC_HDG

Thanks for your response. Also, just to clarify my intent, it was an opinion. Not an assertion. It's not fact, it's purely my opinion on what will happen in the regional market. I don't think you will have any hard faceted evidence to support what I'm saying, hence why once again I say that it's purely my opinion. I'm speculating.

I also believe that at the end of the day that while Encore is growing with a boom, AC Express is diminishing. Why? AC is dominating in the long-haul sector. That's where they make money. This is evidenced by Jazz going from 122 frames to 86. Is that being offset by Sky Regional? In the time frame that Jazz is shrinking, would you not think that Encore has a tremendous opportunity to blow up the regional market with ridiculous expansion? Beyond anything we've already seen? Also, on the same token, CPA employees have less incentives (if you see it from my perspective) than Encore employees do. You may insinuate that they are regionals, so they both suck, but I am looking at what incentives makes sense for your typical 3000 hour pilot that is looking to make a choice between Team red and Team teal for their long defined airline career.

Encore
- One interview
- One List
- Carry YOS for your total time to upgrade at WJ. After 10 years total on the list, you carry YOS when you upgrade for x amount of time.
- Captain extremely quick
- More money, faster, sustained for a longer period of time.
- Flow to WJ at some point.
- Rapidly Growing Company
- ESP/Profit Share versus DC Pension Plan (if you see that as beneficial).
- 50% flow at 200 pilot's.
- Commitment to increase flow to 100%. They've already delivered on 25%, and 50%, it will happen.

Jazz
- Two interviews (One for Jazz, one for AC)
- Not one list, you don't carry YOS. Right back at the bottom with regards to scheduling, life style, command, when going to AC.
- You get 4 years Jazz pay to top up AC pay, then formula pay begins.
- A long time to be making what you would be at Encore. 7+ Years, versus 4 years to hit 75k/yr at Encore
- Flow to AC if you pass the interview
- Diminishing Company
- Your flying is competitive with the companies that can provide AC CPA flying for less. So there's no stability in your career prospective.
- DC Pension plan instead of being in control of your money as you would be with ESP/Profit Sharing.
- 80% flow at 1400+ pilot's plus GGN/EVAS/SKY

For the most part, the above are your hard facts. You have said that both suck. I say for a person making a choice, Encore wins. Once again, an opinion, not an assertion.

Thanks for your input PROC_HDG.

For some people Encore might be the right choice. For others, Jazz or another CPA carrier. I maintain that all regionals suck. I had the chance to go to JZA and WEN and chose a third option.

Jazz is shrinking because they are too expensive. But that flying is not just disappearing. Expect to see more airframes at SKV in the immediate future. There is a rumour that more E175s are already being sourced for them, as well as additional routes out of YTZ. AC express flying is by no means diminishing. In fact, it has to grow to feed AC's international growth.

I am not trying to be an AC fanboy here. At the end of the day we are all pieces of commoditized labour, getting bent over and f/ed by a different colour d1ck (teal or red, take your pick). I just don't buy your assertion that Encore is some kind of miracle regional that we should all be amazed by.

cheers

PROC_HDG

[loopa]

Fair enough. Thanks for taking the time to explain your opinion to me.

[dukepoint]

I think at the end of the day our disagreement is an indication to what incentives you value. Somebody may value a DC pension plan over ESP/Profit Sharing. Someone else may value the vice versa. Someone may value hitting 75k/yr as a Q400 Captain by year 4 at Encore over having to wait for 7+ years to make 75k/yr as an F/O at Jazz. Of course AC offers 80% flow through, they have 1400+ and then another hundred some pilot's from the other CPA's that have to flow through. Encore is offering what... 50% at 200 pilot's today? With their goal to get to 100%? They have ticked off 25%, 50%, 75 and 100 is just around the corner as soon as the company is big enough to sustain it.

So I guess one can't fault another or call one and another a koolaid addict just for having their reasons to believe one is better than the other. I believe Encore is better, clearly you believe Jazz is better. At the end of the day it doesn't matter who you like, do what makes you happy and gives you the career you're interested in.

Still waiting for an answer to my other question.

Westjet mainline is hiring, what, 50 pilots a year? at 50% flow that's 25 a year from Encore. Frankly I wouldn't want to be getting a job at either carrier tomorrow.

I don't believe either one is better than the other, they're both regionals, they both suck. Maybe we can agree on that at least? The difference is Jazz has the protection of ALPA and an actual flow policy in place, not just some "we swear we'll get to 100%" bs. fwiw I don't work for either one.

What I first took issue with is your assertion that the AC regional feeder network is a "mess" that will drive customers away from AC towards WJ. The AC regional feeder network is no more a mess than any other feeder network; And have you flown on encore? Seriously I would rather take a covered wagon from YQT to YYZ than sit on one of their Qs for 2 hrs. A large part of Canada's domestic flyers, particularly in the east, seem to feel the same way, as AC's domestic market share is still sitting at about 58%. There is no evidence that the performance of its express carriers has driven passengers to WJ. Can you provide any?

I assume you're referring to when you asked why AC has been doing so well? I assumed that was a rhetorical question. They are doing well for the same reason WJ is doing well. They continue to increase profits while decreasing labour costs. I guess what you're getting at is that this is because of the cost cutting at the regionals. I don't see how this is any different from what WJ is doing with encore?

PROC_HDG

I'm having a hard time fathoming these attitudes about regional flying on turbo-props. Here are a few thoughts:

When you say Q-400, you're talking about "state-of-the-art" modern airliners. Super safe, companies with great SOP's, and support staff, impeccable maintanance. Stay put and you'll pull in roughly a 6-figure salary. Do you seriously think left seat on a Widebody is really that different??? I assure you it isn't. Even less so on a 737. I've had about a thousand hours sitting in that left seat at 350 to think about it. The money may be better, but be prepared to get raped at tax time by our Socialist Government. Once you're in the top tax bracket...I assure you you'll know. I pay more in tax than 75% of Canadians take home every month. The difference between making 100K and 180K isn't as big as you'd imagine, especially when your tastes change along with it. No more XLT...it's straight to the Lariat....is it any better. No, not one bit....it's just got more crap that can break when the warranty is up. The more stuff you have the more you realize that it's mostly crap that gives you a headache worrying about; a headache that you can do without to begin with. All that "stuff" you want to buy with that great "big jet" job.....rent it and make it someone elses problem when you're not using it.

I've got 3000 hours on a Dash 8 and it was probably the most fun and most satisfying time in an aircraft I've ever had. It doesn't get better....sorry. Hand flying widebodies is not "encouraged" as much as we may believe otherwise. There is so much "mass" that you can't mess with it much....there's really only one way to fly it, on the numbers, all the time.....very little lattitude. There was nothing like shooting a crap approach in Castlegar, or Kamloops on a dark dirty night to fill that need for a little excitement and satisfaction. You got the feeling of "a job well done" when you set the park-brake like you never will again. Flying a Dash was a "cat you could skin a thousand ways", not so on a heavy jet. Looking back I would have been just as happy flying a Dash for the rest of my career as opposed to "chasing metal".

I'll never understand those who believe Regional flying is a "stepping stone" to greater things. They aren't greater, I assure you, they're just different, and quite frankly, not quite as much fun on the flying side of things. Enjoy the scenery along the way, cuz the "destination" might not be what you expect.

DP.

[PROC_HDG]

I'm having a hard time fathoming these attitudes about regional flying on turbo-props. Here are a few thoughts:

When you say Q-400, you're talking about "state-of-the-art" modern airliners. Super safe, companies with great SOP's, and support staff, impeccable maintanance. Stay put and you'll pull in roughly a 6-figure salary. Do you seriously think left seat on a Widebody is really that different??? I assure you it isn't. Even less so on a 737. I've had about a thousand hours sitting in that left seat at 350 to think about it. The money may be better, but be prepared to get raped at tax time by our Socialist Government. Once you're in the top tax bracket...I assure you you'll know. I pay more in tax than 75% of Canadians take home every month. The difference between making 100K and 180K isn't as big as you'd imagine, especially when your tastes change along with it. No more XLT...it's straight to the Lariat....is it any better. No, not one bit....it's just got more crap that can break when the warranty is up. The more stuff you have the more you realize that it's mostly crap that gives you a headache worrying about; a headache that you can do without to begin with. All that "stuff" you want to buy with that great "big jet" job.....rent it and make it someone elses problem when you're not using it.

I've got 3000 hours on a Dash 8 and it was probably the most fun and most satisfying time in an aircraft I've ever had. It doesn't get better....sorry. Hand flying widebodies is not "encouraged" as much as we may believe otherwise. There is so much "mass" that you can't mess with it much....there's really only one way to fly it, on the numbers, all the time.....very little lattitude. There was nothing like shooting a crap approach in Castlegar, or Kamloops on a dark dirty night to fill that need for a little excitement and satisfaction. You got the feeling of "a job well done" when you set the park-brake like you never will again. Flying a Dash was a "cat you could skin a thousand ways", not so on a heavy jet. Looking back I would have been just as happy flying a Dash for the rest of my career as opposed to "chasing metal".

I'll never understand those who believe Regional flying is a "stepping stone" to greater things. They aren't greater, I assure you, they're just different, and quite frankly, not quite as much fun on the flying side of things. Enjoy the scenery along the way, cuz the "destination" might not be what you expect.

DP.

Uhhhh...what??

I was only expressing my views on the industry and the state of regional WAWCONs etc. I don't think I ever mentioned anything to the effect that flying a Q is any less demanding than flying a widebody, or any less enjoyable, or anything of the sort. I fly the Q400 80 hours a month and enjoy every minute of it (except when it blows through the loc in APPR mode. right?). When I look back at my time on the classic Dash-8 I'm filled with fond memories. Even more so when I think about the no-autopilot-loud-as-f~ck turboprop that I started out on. I don't think anybody is making an argument that regionals suck because the flying isn't fun, or that no flying matters until you're on a widebody.

Nobody is talking about whether or not "widebodies are any different". Save your nonsense about our "socialist government" and its tax rates. The point is, for the money and time the average pilot spends becoming qualified and cutting their teeth, combined with the giant corporate liability/responsibility that we take on every time we step in a cockpit (be it a king air or a 777), we are treated like garbage at the regional level, and have largely ourselves to blame. I don't think its unreasonable for pilots to want the career they set out to have, and usually that means flying a jet at a major airline. Big jet flying may not be any "greater" but it comes with the potential for career earnings and longevity that don't exist at the regional level. This is what this discussion is about.

I don't think I've ever seen a post on this forum so out of left field.

PROC_HDG

[PROC_HDG]

oh and also, the difference in federal tax rate that you pay being a Q400 capt vs a 777 capt is ~4%. In Ontario, the difference in provincial tax rate you pay between those two positions is about 4.5%. Taxes are the price of organized society. You make more, you pay more.

PROC_HDG

[dukepoint]

Sorry if I sounded like I was picking on you individually, cuz I'm not. There's no need to be so defensive. It's just this pervasive attitude of distain for Regional type flying that bugs the crap out of me.

The reason the pay is so lousy at the Regionals is because everyone "lothes" the idea of ending up there, when it's actually not that bad in the scheme of things.

The general attitude from almost every poster seems to follow a similar pattern......get to the Majors as fast as you can, cuz life will be great there and you'll be rich. Most just seem so hell bent on it, that it seems a form of insanity. It's OK here at AC, but it was OK elsewhere too. There are tons of great careers, with awesome flying, at the Regional level that guys are fleeing from......for what???? Money? I guess we all need that 5th TV, or that fourth car someday.

Extra money has allowed me to buy extra stuff. But you know, extra stuff needs storage, so you need a bigger house.....that you need to heat....and maintain.....and pay taxes on. The boat is worth less every year, a car is a car, a truck is just a truck...the more I get, the less I want.....because wanting, and getting and having stuff is a friggin disease that keeps me from spending quality time with my family. It's wierd, but it's the world we live in.

I guess what I'm asking is what's so lousy about earning $90,000 a year flying Dash 8's for a Regional carrier??? When you get to where I am, you're going to understand exactly what I'm talking about. It's just a shame it takes so long.

Rant over...DP.

I'll just call myself crazy, I guess I'm missing the big picture.

[Hetfield]

Hello YOW
There are a few direct positions to be hired this year however my interviewed pool is large enough to cover the available spots for 2015.
I suspect not many more WJ interviews will be granted this year unless something drastic changes in the next month or so.
Cheers

I've got a few buddies hoping for mainline as well but, from what I've heard from the powers that be including Mr P, I've been telling them, the only way in is Encore. Your main focus, I think, should be to get that seniority number.

[loopa]

Sorry if I sounded like I was picking on you individually, cuz I'm not. There's no need to be so defensive. It's just this pervasive attitude of distain for Regional type flying that bugs the crap out of me.

The reason the pay is so lousy at the Regionals is because everyone "lothes" the idea of ending up there, when it's actually not that bad in the scheme of things.

The general attitude from almost every poster seems to follow a similar pattern......get to the Majors as fast as you can, cuz life will be great there and you'll be rich. Most just seem so hell bent on it, that it seems a form of insanity. It's OK here at AC, but it was OK elsewhere too. There are tons of great careers, with awesome flying, at the Regional level that guys are fleeing from......for what???? Money? I guess we all need that 5th TV, or that fourth car someday.

Extra money has allowed me to buy extra stuff. But you know, extra stuff needs storage, so you need a bigger house.....that you need to heat....and maintain.....and pay taxes on. The boat is worth less every year, a car is a car, a truck is just a truck...the more I get, the less I want.....because wanting, and getting and having stuff is a friggin disease that keeps me from spending quality time with my family. It's wierd, but it's the world we live in.

I guess what I'm asking is what's so lousy about earning $90,000 a year flying Dash 8's for a Regional carrier??? When you get to where I am, you're going to understand exactly what I'm talking about. It's just a shame it takes so long.

Rant over...DP.

I'll just call myself crazy, I guess I'm missing the big picture.

If only we could re-live yesterday with todays wisdom

I get what you're saying dukepoint. And based on what you're saying I'd imagine you're a wide body driver at AC. Quite honestly, what you say is what 90% of the people I know flying wide bodies say as well. The rewarding aspect of it seems to somehow get lost as you're projecting forward thinking to yourself, if something goes wrong here... I have to fly 180 minutes to get somewhere not even suitable

At least 180 minutes in the Dash 8 gave you a few more options lol...

Thanks for giving us the reality check we sometimes forget to see.

I fly the Q400 80 hours a month and enjoy every minute of it (except when it blows through the loc in APPR mode. right?).

So annoying!!!

[BE20 Driver]

I don't know where you guys are getting the 50% flow from. Flow is at 25%. That's it. That's all.

[Bede]

The tunnel with the light at its end seems to be getting longer. You can only defer gratification so long until the gratification loses all of it's value. I'm in a good spot but if I were a few more rungs down the ladder I wouldn't go for encore: it's simply too long of a wait to go to WJ and not nearly lucrative enough. Instead I would focus on getting the best lifestyle 703 job out there. Home at night to see the kids, and enough time off to have some fun. There's a lot of smaller companies paying over $100k now. The downside is no travel benefits.

If I was single, I'd do whatever I could to get a type rating and head overseas for a few years, save my money and come back to Canada living on a shoestring and spend my days climbing and skiing.

[Old fella]

The tunnel with the light at its end seems to be getting longer. You can only defer gratification so long until the gratification loses all of it's value. I'm in a good spot but if I were a few more rungs down the ladder I wouldn't go for encore: it's simply too long of a wait to go to WJ and not nearly lucrative enough. Instead I would focus on getting the best lifestyle 703 job out there. Home at night to see the kids, and enough time off to have some fun. There's a lot of smaller companies paying over $100k now. The downside is no travel benefits.

If I was single, I'd do whatever I could to get a type rating and head overseas for a few years, save my money and come back to Canada living on a shoestring and spend my days climbing and skiing.

Jeez.... you airline types are starting to worry us from all the less than stellar commentary posted here, Jazz and AC regarding the future. My youngest sister's 17 yr old is just about to finish high school and aviation(pilot) has tweaked his interest. My recommendation was requested and I promptly said" stay the f--- away".