Negotiations

[airway]

My opinion is that the amount that's floated to you guys by the end of this 4 year proposal is what it needs be to immediately to accommodate for inflation and market value, not at the end of 4 years. They've reaped the benefits of below-market labour for long enough to be able to give quite a bit back. Keep in mind it's likely to see another 15% inflation by 2027 which negates the gains near the end. At least there isn't some decade long contract being proposed again.

The contract still goes to 2035. The top scale captain wage increases to $200 /credit hour in 2029 and then increases 2% per year until 2035.

[flyinhigh]

My opinion is that the amount that's floated to you guys by the end of this 4 year proposal is what it needs be to immediately to accommodate for inflation and market value, not at the end of 4 years. They've reaped the benefits of below-market labour for long enough to be able to give quite a bit back. Keep in mind it's likely to see another 15% inflation by 2027 which negates the gains near the end. At least there isn't some decade long contract being proposed again.

The contract still goes to 2035. The top scale captain wage increases to $200 /credit hour in 2029 and then increases 2% per year until 2035.

Lololol, congrats on the 20 year Captain payscale.

At the time, how many will actually be on that scale? Maybe a dozen. How many will actually make it to that scale? maybe a dozen more.

How many buy outs will the company try when you get there, definitely everyone on it.

[Tbayer2021]

When does the vote close?

[BTD]

As an outsider it really looks like the question to ask yourself is “do I think this will help the company stop the bleeding”

If the answer is yes, this will stop the bleeding then don’t take the deal, as it isn’t enough.

If the answer is no, this won’t change anything, then take the deal and have a few extra bucks while the ship continues to sink.

[cdnavater]

My opinion is that the amount that's floated to you guys by the end of this 4 year proposal is what it needs be to immediately to accommodate for inflation and market value, not at the end of 4 years. They've reaped the benefits of below-market labour for long enough to be able to give quite a bit back. Keep in mind it's likely to see another 15% inflation by 2027 which negates the gains near the end. At least there isn't some decade long contract being proposed again.

The contract still goes to 2035. The top scale captain wage increases to $200 /credit hour in 2029 and then increases 2% per year until 2035.

Lololol, congrats on the 20 year Captain payscale.

At the time, how many will actually be on that scale? Maybe a dozen. How many will actually make it to that scale? maybe a dozen more.

How many buy outs will the company try when you get there, definitely everyone on it.

Not sure what’s so funny, there are a little over 400 on top scale and another 150 that will be by 2029 and retirements are maybe 30-40 per year. Not to mention how many stay past 65, there are plenty who will benefit from this twenty year scale myself included. It was a sad day when I got to the top scale, I enjoyed getting two raises per year, now I can enjoy that a couple more times.

[cdnavater]

When does the vote close?

Aug 28, 10am ET

[cdnavater]

As an outsider it ready looks like the question to ask yourself is “do I think this will help the company stop the bleeding”

If the answer is yes, this will stop the bleeding then don’t take the deal, as it isn’t enough.

If the answer is no, this won’t change anything, then take the deal and have a few extra buck while the ship continues to sink.

The general consensus is it won’t, can always count on you to see the big picture

[Tbayer2021]

When does the vote close?

Aug 28, 10am ET

Thank you!

[Fowler]

What about freezing all the pilots flowing to Air Canada for a rolling 12 months? How many extra passengers will fly keeping them on type until Air Canada calls? Making money for Air Canada? Isn't that one hell of a give? What if that give is enough to make them not come back?

[proper]

Regardless of the vote results, we need to stick together. No, Yes, doesn't matter, Monday we need to continue being a strong unified group.

[SmokinJoe]

MEC UPDATE: Unity in the Air Canada Network August 24, 2023
Fellow pilots, Unity within our own pilot group continues to grow every day. This instills our MEC and Negotiating Committee with the resolve required to achieve the world-class contract that our pilot group rightfully deserves. Thank you for your continued support and engagement - it is critical while we are in bargaining.

Pilot unity within the Canadian pilot profession as a whole is becoming a force to be reckoned with, as more and more pilot groups join ALPA. The latest Canadian pilot group to certify with ALPA is Pascan Aviation which was preceded by the Keewatin and Lynx pilot groups. We are proud to be in the same union as 95% of our fellow unionized Canadian aviators. It is not lost on us that what we agree to as Air Canada pilots has ripple effects on the entire piloting profession within Canada. This is why our current contract negotiation is so vital to our profession. Now that we all are in the same union, it is imperative that as professional Canadian pilots, we all come together and keep repeating to our respective employers – the discount on professional Canadian pilot labour is over.

Unity means standing together with our fellow professional pilot colleagues in Canada and putting a stop to the whipsaw that has plagued our profession, north of the 49th parallel, for far too long. It is one of the reasons this pilot group chose to merge with ALPA – to show unity with our fellow professionals in Canada and North America. It is why we stood shoulder to shoulder with our colleagues at WestJet in their fight for their Collective Agreement #2, and why our Negotiating Committee has opened the lines of communication with their counterparts at Air Transat. Our MEC is committed to stopping the age-old management tactic of pitting one pilot group against another, by dangling promises of flying and airplanes, while their primary scheme is to collect a discount on our valuable pilot skillset.

Our Company has exploited the divisions in our own pilot group for far too long – junior versus senior, widebody versus narrowbody, mainline versus rouge, DB versus CWIPP, base versus base, and the list unfortunately goes on and on. Air Canada has also skillfully deployed this tactic by trying to pit mainline pilots versus regional pilots.

As many of you are aware, the Jazz MEC recently sent Memorandum of Settlement (MoS) #7 to their pilot group for ratification. The pilot attraction and retention issues at our regional, Jazz Aviation, are too large to keep ignoring. It was mentioned during Air Canada’s Q2 announcement and is making waves in the media, as these issues directly affect our network capacity and structure, not to mention the advancement and quality of life of Air Canada pilots. As Air Canada stated in the Q2 results news release: “We are increasing our efforts to protect the customer journey from disruption, regardless of the cause. This includes using any influence we have, in such instances as pilot attrition at our principal regional partner…”.

Many Jazz pilots are no longer waiting to flow to Air Canada, and are instead seeking greener pastures by going to WestJet, Porter, and any other airline where the pay rates are substantially higher. The current flow through rate of 60% from Jazz to Air Canada was not met last year. The pilot pipeline is clearly broken.

Air Canada has a problem that requires a solution, and even though the Jazz pilots are not in an open bargaining cycle, there is a deal before them that management believes may solve this problem. This brings up memories of our own Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) that was sent out for ratification while we were still in a closed contract during the fall of last year.

Your Air Canada MEC established a relationship with the Jazz MEC based on open communication, transparency, and started sowing the seeds of trust at the beginning of the year. Both MECs realize our greatest strength is leveraging our unity for significant gains for our respective pilot groups. It is your MEC’s job to represent and protect all Air Canada pilots to the best of our ability and leverage all opportunities. The Jazz MEC Executive has kept your MEC Executive informed while they have been in negotiations with their employer, Jazz Aviation, for almost a year. Many of our pilots who are former Jazz pilots are well aware of the struggles of working under a Capacity Purchase Agreement (CPA). The Jazz pilot group negotiating a substantial wage increase, helps in our endeavor to do the same for our pilot group. Afterall, the rising tide lifts all ships, but our employers tend to poke holes in any ships that may be rising.

Your MEC recognizes the Jazz MEC is in a difficult position and understands why they chose to share this deal with their pilot group without a recommendation, as there is no clarity on the future of our profession in Canada. While our own negotiations are still in the initial stages, and the Jazz pilot group is well ahead of ours, these two bargaining tables do not occur in isolation. The Jazz MEC has been attempting to extract as much value as possible for their pilots for over a year, as they explain in their communication to their membership: “The proposal represents substantial monetary value in pay and benefits premiums. That value is tied to some items that the Company believes they require to recover the operation.The MOS does not meet the MEC’s expectations and the MEC is not convinced the MOS will meet the Company’s objectives either. However, at this juncture, the MEC has decided it would be irresponsible not to give you the opportunity to decide.”

There is value in this deal – the question before the Jazz pilots is a rather simple one – is it enough value?

As we saw south of the border, wages increased substantially at the regionals to attract and retain talent. The massive pay increases we have seen in the United States began at the regional level because, as the Financial Times article states, “We created our own problem,” Darby said. “It’s like eating your own young.”

This Air Canada ALPA MEC is committed to stopping the whipsaw between pilot groups. Our employers have a significant problem they need to solve when it comes to our regional flying and to our overall network. To solve pilot supply problems in our current economic environment requires a significant financial investment from all stakeholders. Your MEC is committed to working closely with the Jazz pilots and ensuring that these issues are addressed in our negotiation.

If ever there was a time for solidarity and unity, now is that moment. As Air Canada pilots, we have tremendous contractual needs that must be properly addressed for this airline to maintain its pilot ranks and world class status. We are at a unique crossroads in time where your MEC believes we can achieve the improvements needed, but it will take the proverbial village of airline pilots coming together to succeed. We are confident that working with the Jazz pilots and others will lift all boats and ensure that this pilot group leaves the industry better than we found it.

Fly Safe & Stay Engaged,
Your Air Canada MEC

[hithere]

OMG this is so awesome! So once the Jazz pilots say no and AC punishes us by fading Jazz into oblivion the AC pilots will step in and pay our mortgage payments?

[FL030]

OMG this is so awesome! So once the Jazz pilots say no and AC punishes us by fading Jazz into oblivion the AC pilots will step in and pay our mortgage payments?

You're never going to have a better time to get what you deserve. This is once in a career.

[truedude]

OMG this is so awesome! So once the Jazz pilots say no and AC punishes us by fading Jazz into oblivion the AC pilots will step in and pay our mortgage payments?

You're never going to have a better time to get what you deserve. This is once in a career.

This isn't just about getting what we deserve, or what we are worth. Everyone knows this offer is not even close to that. But at the moment AC believes this will fix the issues at Jazz. I think every pilot in Canada knows that it will not. So we vote it in, and in about 3 months they will likely see that they are on the verge of having another terrible summer, perhaps even worse than this one. With a little luck, AC will have their "come to Jesus moment" and actually address the issues.

If we vote no, AC management continues thinking that it isn't their offer that is the problem, but Jazz pilots, and will respond accordingly. I like option #1 a lot more.

We are not dealing with a rational management team at this time. They are still looking at the situation as, "what is the minimum we can get away with?" But that sort of thinking doesn't reflect today's realities. But they aren't there yet. My concern, and my hesitation is, we are not dealing with a rational management group, that properly recognizes the pilot market, and thus, is not weighting their offer appropriately.

[RoAF-Mig21]

The people saying that "The ball is in our court", are wrong. It is not in our court. It was in our court when we, as a pilot group, voted that 17 year deal that was presented as the "Best deal we could ever hope for".

This is an increase that will solve very little, aside from attracting new, inexperienced F/Os. Junior captains and senior F/Os will still leave, until a significant pay increase is offered that matches industry standards. Until then, the only "ball" we control is whether we stay here or not.

I personally have no intention to stay here anymore, and at one point I decided to make Jazz my career. I'm man enough to admit I miscalculated that one. I am actively pursuing other opportunities, even if it means taking a temporary pay cut. If I see a meaningful increase in pay, I will consider staying. It's as simple as that.

It's too bad, because I honestly like working at Jazz. I really do.

[rudder]

The people saying that "The ball is in our court", are wrong. It is not in our court. It was in our court when we, as a pilot group, voted that 17 year deal that was presented as the "Best deal we could ever hope for".

This is an increase that will solve very little, aside from attracting new, inexperienced F/Os. Junior captains and senior F/Os will still leave, until a significant pay increase is offered that matches industry standards. Until then, the only "ball" we control is whether we stay here or not.

I personally have no intention to stay here anymore, and at one point I decided to make Jazz my career. I'm man enough to admit I miscalculated that one. I am actively pursuing other opportunities, even if it means taking a temporary pay cut. If I see a meaningful increase in pay, I will consider staying. It's as simple as that.

It's too bad, because I honestly like working at Jazz. I really do.

The Jazz of 2023 isn’t what it used to be. Jazz’s best days are many years behind.

It is much smaller. Pairings and schedules are awful. Reassignment isn’t an anomaly but standard practice.

New-hire pay has been tweaked but the pay scales will be out-of-date the same day they go in to effect.

Go read the answers to the 175 questions. That should tell you all you need to know about the future, including that even being able to staff 80 aircraft is questionable.

Jazz pilots cannot set the bar because there is not a real airline attached to the job of a Jazz pilot. It seems that Jazz pilot jobs exist at the leisure of AC. CBA’s and CPA’s seem to offer little in the way of security given the fragility of the underlying operation.

AC is going to do what it needs to do. This is just a bandaid as AC staffs to 6000 and is able to operate much of the Express city pairs. Upguage and reduce CASM. The only casualty is frequency.

Nobody at Jazz sees any sun on the horizon. Just more of what has been happening since the COVID recovery began.

[Daniel Cooper]

The people saying that "The ball is in our court", are wrong. I am actively pursuing other opportunities, even if it means taking a temporary pay cut.

That's why the ball is is in your court. Everyone at Jazz could have a new job in a week.

[RoAF-Mig21]

The people saying that "The ball is in our court", are wrong. I am actively pursuing other opportunities, even if it means taking a temporary pay cut.

That's why the ball is is in your court. Everyone at Jazz could have a new job in a week.

You're not wrong, from that point of view....

[braaap Braap]

The people saying that "The ball is in our court", are wrong. It is not in our court. It was in our court when we, as a pilot group, voted that 17 year deal that was presented as the "Best deal we could ever hope for".

This is an increase that will solve very little, aside from attracting new, inexperienced F/Os. Junior captains and senior F/Os will still leave, until a significant pay increase is offered that matches industry standards. Until then, the only "ball" we control is whether we stay here or not.

I personally have no intention to stay here anymore, and at one point I decided to make Jazz my career. I'm man enough to admit I miscalculated that one. I am actively pursuing other opportunities, even if it means taking a temporary pay cut. If I see a meaningful increase in pay, I will consider staying. It's as simple as that.

It's too bad, because I honestly like working at Jazz. I really do.

The Jazz of 2023 isn’t what it used to be. Jazz’s best days are many years behind.

It is much smaller. Pairings and schedules are awful. Reassignment isn’t an anomaly but standard practice.

New-hire pay has been tweaked but the pay scales will be out-of-date the same day they go in to effect.

Go read the answers to the 175 questions. That should tell you all you need to know about the future, including that even being able to staff 80 aircraft is questionable.

Jazz pilots cannot set the bar because there is not a real airline attached to the job of a Jazz pilot. It seems that Jazz pilot jobs exist at the leisure of AC. CBA’s and CPA’s seem to offer little in the way of security given the fragility of the underlying operation.

AC is going to do what it needs to do. This is just a bandaid as AC staffs to 6000 and is able to operate much of the Express city pairs. Upguage and reduce CASM. The only casualty is frequency.

Nobody at Jazz sees any sun on the horizon. Just more of what has been happening since the COVID recovery began.

This makes it sound like the demise of Jazz is inevitable.

[truedude]

The people saying that "The ball is in our court", are wrong. It is not in our court. It was in our court when we, as a pilot group, voted that 17 year deal that was presented as the "Best deal we could ever hope for".

This is an increase that will solve very little, aside from attracting new, inexperienced F/Os. Junior captains and senior F/Os will still leave, until a significant pay increase is offered that matches industry standards. Until then, the only "ball" we control is whether we stay here or not.

I personally have no intention to stay here anymore, and at one point I decided to make Jazz my career. I'm man enough to admit I miscalculated that one. I am actively pursuing other opportunities, even if it means taking a temporary pay cut. If I see a meaningful increase in pay, I will consider staying. It's as simple as that.

It's too bad, because I honestly like working at Jazz. I really do.

The Jazz of 2023 isn’t what it used to be. Jazz’s best days are many years behind.

It is much smaller. Pairings and schedules are awful. Reassignment isn’t an anomaly but standard practice.

New-hire pay has been tweaked but the pay scales will be out-of-date the same day they go in to effect.

Go read the answers to the 175 questions. That should tell you all you need to know about the future, including that even being able to staff 80 aircraft is questionable.

Jazz pilots cannot set the bar because there is not a real airline attached to the job of a Jazz pilot. It seems that Jazz pilot jobs exist at the leisure of AC. CBA’s and CPA’s seem to offer little in the way of security given the fragility of the underlying operation.

AC is going to do what it needs to do. This is just a bandaid as AC staffs to 6000 and is able to operate much of the Express city pairs. Upguage and reduce CASM. The only casualty is frequency.

Nobody at Jazz sees any sun on the horizon. Just more of what has been happening since the COVID recovery began.

This makes it sound like the demise of Jazz is inevitable.

Depends if AC management see this as a temporary situation, or intentional until they close up shop.

[braaap Braap]

The Jazz of 2023 isn’t what it used to be. Jazz’s best days are many years behind.

It is much smaller. Pairings and schedules are awful. Reassignment isn’t an anomaly but standard practice.

New-hire pay has been tweaked but the pay scales will be out-of-date the same day they go in to effect.

Go read the answers to the 175 questions. That should tell you all you need to know about the future, including that even being able to staff 80 aircraft is questionable.

Jazz pilots cannot set the bar because there is not a real airline attached to the job of a Jazz pilot. It seems that Jazz pilot jobs exist at the leisure of AC. CBA’s and CPA’s seem to offer little in the way of security given the fragility of the underlying operation.

AC is going to do what it needs to do. This is just a bandaid as AC staffs to 6000 and is able to operate much of the Express city pairs. Upguage and reduce CASM. The only casualty is frequency.

Nobody at Jazz sees any sun on the horizon. Just more of what has been happening since the COVID recovery began.

This makes it sound like the demise of Jazz is inevitable.

Depends if AC management see this as a temporary situation, or intentional until they close up shop.

Right but all the yes votes (and no’s) seem to believe this wont solve any of the problems so does that not force AC to sunset Jazz anyway?

[Stu Pidasso]

I just want to make sure I understand the logic here:

You need to say "Yes" because the management at Air Canada is so incompetent that you need to take subpar pay to "save" your airline?

It's a shade of Stockholm syndrome.

It isn’t, it's experience dealing with a vengeful spiteful company, with a mainline group that has eagerly thrown us under the bus multiple times in the past.

Not sure how long you've been around truedude, but thown under the bus goes both ways. If AC came to you tomorrow and said they would give you the 320's, you would jump on it like a fat kid on a smarty. Most routes Jazz fly's, were once flown by AC or a predecessor Airline.

From the outside looking in, Jazz has turned (sadly) to one of the worse jobs in the Country. Unless you're a 250 hr kid, or over 50, I would bail in a heart beat.

[truedude]

It's a shade of Stockholm syndrome.

It isn’t, it's experience dealing with a vengeful spiteful company, with a mainline group that has eagerly thrown us under the bus multiple times in the past.

Not sure how long you've been around truedude, but thown under the bus goes both ways. If AC came to you tomorrow and said they would give you the 320's, you would jump on it like a fat kid on a smarty. Most routes Jazz fly's, were once flown by AC or a predecessor Airline.

From the outside looking in, Jazz has turned (sadly) to one of the worse jobs in the Country. Unless you're a 250 hr kid, or over 50, I would bail in a heart beat.

No, I wouldn't. I would strongly advocate agasint anything like that because that will drag down the industry. You are talking hypothetically. AC pilots giving up tier 2 exclusivity is very much real.

[cdnavater]

It's a shade of Stockholm syndrome.

It isn’t, it's experience dealing with a vengeful spiteful company, with a mainline group that has eagerly thrown us under the bus multiple times in the past.

Not sure how long you've been around truedude, but thown under the bus goes both ways. If AC came to you tomorrow and said they would give you the 320's, you would jump on it like a fat kid on a smarty. Most routes Jazz fly's, were once flown by AC or a predecessor Airline.

From the outside looking in, Jazz has turned (sadly) to one of the worse jobs in the Country. Unless you're a 250 hr kid, or over 50, I would bail in a heart beat.

And this is the problem, there is no trust between the two groups, makes it very difficult if not impossible to make any progress on anything jointly.
Is that the mentality at AC? They would do it to us so we’ll beat them to it, there was a time I would’ve possibly because of what your group had done to us. Jazz used to be the best regional job in NA and some could have argued the world, when we lost our exclusivity(scope) it’s been going downhill since. We didn’t have our own scope and perhaps that’s because we never imagined a scenario where you(AC Pilots) would give that up but let’s be honest, we don’t own the flying so scope was near impossible for us to achieve.
Look even now, we have been slowly trying to regain that but it was enshrined in the CPA and not our collective, pretty hard to enforce when your company doesn’t. The hardest pill to swallow in all of this mess is that they and you(AC pilots) created this mess and we have to live with the consequences!

[Fanblade]

The Jazz of 2023 isn’t what it used to be. Jazz’s best days are many years behind.

It is much smaller. Pairings and schedules are awful. Reassignment isn’t an anomaly but standard practice.

New-hire pay has been tweaked but the pay scales will be out-of-date the same day they go in to effect.

Go read the answers to the 175 questions. That should tell you all you need to know about the future, including that even being able to staff 80 aircraft is questionable.

Jazz pilots cannot set the bar because there is not a real airline attached to the job of a Jazz pilot. It seems that Jazz pilot jobs exist at the leisure of AC. CBA’s and CPA’s seem to offer little in the way of security given the fragility of the underlying operation.

AC is going to do what it needs to do. This is just a bandaid as AC staffs to 6000 and is able to operate much of the Express city pairs. Upguage and reduce CASM. The only casualty is frequency.

Nobody at Jazz sees any sun on the horizon. Just more of what has been happening since the COVID recovery began.

This makes it sound like the demise of Jazz is inevitable.

Depends if AC management see this as a temporary situation, or intentional until they close up shop.

1) Air Canada still needs a regional airline cost structure. Canada is not Europe or the Eastern seaboard.

2) If you vote yes on Monday and it doesn’t fix Jazz’s retention issues, AC will eventually be back to fix the problem. If you vote no on Monday the retention issues will not be addressed for certain and AC will eventually be back to fix the problem. Same difference.

3) If a yes vote does not fix the retention issues AC will continue with network mitigation. If you vote no AC will continue with network mitigation. Same difference.

At the end of the day AC needs a viable regional. Jazz is not easily replaceable. Network mitigation is a stop gap strategy, it is not a long term strategy. AC is just showing their hell or high water approach toward the pilot shortage. They are bullying around a group of pilots that can’t strike. They have manufactured a burning platform for you and are hoping you make a decision based on fear.

But it is temporary. Jazz is going nowhere. Do not buy into the fear they are trying to serve you.

The whole point of a burning platform is to create a sense of fear, helplessness, vulnerability and powerlessness which translates into capitulation and resignation. Don’t buy into it.

On Monday the saga will likely continue no matter how you vote. Jazz attraction and retention won’t be addressed. AC will still need to employ network mitigation. Eventually AC will realize their manufactured existential threat/ burning platform is making the situation worse. I mean who wants to go to a company that won’t exist in the future? Now only 30% flow. Low paying regional.

This will pass.