Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

[Pilotdaddy]

Does anyone have any helpful suggestions for strategies to avoid making mistakes and distractions on the lists that we do have, the first time through?

1. Try to Do things the same way, in same order each time.

2. Ask Pax to be quiet from pre-takeoff to safe altitude.

3. Don't fly excessively tired or ill, especially if infrequent.

4. Don't rush because of other aircraft / ATC, take one's time, especially if infrequent, especially for a challenging takoff

5. If unsure about something pre takeoff, slow down, re-check, even shut down if necessary.

Now, that's a much more helpful suggestion than a second or third or fourth final final final checklist, mental or otherwise.

[digits_]

6. Convince yourself that all checks in a checklist are important. If you disagree, find out why you are wrong or modify the checklist.

[pelmet]

Does anyone have any helpful suggestions for strategies to avoid making mistakes and distractions on the lists that we do have, the first time through?

1. Try to Do things the same way, in same order each time.

2. Ask Pax to be quiet from pre-takeoff to safe altitude.

3. Don't fly excessively tired or ill, especially if infrequent.

4. Don't rush because of other aircraft / ATC, take one's time, especially if infrequent, especially for a challenging takoff

5. If unsure about something pre takeoff, slow down, re-check, even shut down if necessary.

Now, that's a much more helpful suggestion than a second or third or fourth final final final checklist, mental or otherwise.

Sounds like our self-admitted 'very green instructor' would be the perfect candidate for the last accident I posted about with a very green instructor. Teach away. And thanks for the advice with the fourth final, final, final checklist statement. Maybe that is the level of arguments by the so-called professionals these days.

[Pilotdaddy]

Sounds like our admitted 'very green instructor' would be the perfect candidate for the last accident I posted about a very green instructor.

Well, yes sir, I am very much a very very green instructor. That's why I genuinely try to learn and better myself versus spending time digging other people's previous forum posts.

Anyway, I've printed off your mental checklist (hey, I forget things too)... and not only will I do it as a secondary check, I promised myself to do it at least 5x times, just in case I missed stuff on the first 4x. I am now 5x safer, thanks to you!

[pelmet]

Anyway, I've printed off your mental checklist (hey, I forget things too)... and not only will I do it as a secondary check, I promised myself to do it at least 5x times, just in case I missed stuff on the first 4x. I am now 5x safer, thanks to you!

See previous post. I guess Cat Driver always was right about the quality of many of the newer generation of instructors. Probably have over 500 hours time now.

Next(gotta admit, Rookie had a nice post).

[Pilotdaddy]

Anyway, I've printed off your mental checklist (hey, I forget things too)... and not only will I do it as a secondary check, I promised myself to do it at least 5x times, just in case I missed stuff on the first 4x. I am now 5x safer, thanks to you!

See previous post. I guess Cat Driver always was right about the quality of many of the newer generation of instructors. Probably have over 500 hours time now.

You know... when someone thanks you, the appropriate response may just be... you're welcome

[pelmet]

Anyway, I've printed off your mental checklist (hey, I forget things too)... and not only will I do it as a secondary check, I promised myself to do it at least 5x times, just in case I missed stuff on the first 4x. I am now 5x safer, thanks to you!

See previous post. I guess Cat Driver always was right about the quality of many of the newer generation of instructors. Probably have over 500 hours time now.

You know... when someone thanks you, the appropriate response may just be... you're welcome

I've been around long enough to recognize strong repeated sarcasm. But thank you anyways or shall I say....your welcome.

[Pilotdaddy]

Here's the revised take off checklist... it's 6x safer!

checklist.jpg (127.62 KiB) Viewed 1525 times

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think it would be useful to return to first principals ( to be clear I am talking about single pilot GA operations)

-Do list: A written checklist where the pilots reads an action, does the action and then reads the next item, does it etc etc

-Checklist; A written checklist which is read after all actions are completed by a flow or memory to confirm all actions were done

- Flow check: This where the physical layout of the cockpit is used to perform actions is an orderly consistent way. ( eg, for a C 172 a prelanding flow that starts at the fuel selector, goes up to the carb heat and mixture controls, over to the lower switch panel and finishes with the brake check)

- Memory check: checks done solely by memory, usually with the aid of a mnemonic ( eg GUMPS)

-SOP: Procedures which are regularly performed but are not part of a formal checklist ( eg brake check just as the aircraft starts to move from its parking spot, or turning on strobes when entering runway)

Like most things in aviation there is more than one philosophy how to do something. The remainder of this post is BPF's opinion. Constructive
feedback is welcomed

1) Human factors research indicates that shorter checklist work better than longer ones. Flight schools tend to have very long checklists because they tend to include a lot of SOP item, or even "how to fly items" in the checklist. They also tend to indiscriminately mix do and checklists in one document, or have checks that are just stupid ( i.e. selecting left and right tanks to "confirm flow" in a C172R or S)

2) Do lists and checklists should only cover items which will have a significant adverse affect on safe fight if they are missed. So for example IMO not turning on your transponder does not have a immediate safety impact and so should be a line up SOP not a checklist item.

3) Do lists should only be done when the airplane is stopped on the ground or in stable enroute flight. Everything else is a checklist. Personally I don't like mnemonics so all my checklist are designed to be done after a flow.

4) Checklist should be driven by phase of flight ( eg the descent check is always done commencing descent from cruise altitude or before entering the CZ or selecting gear down automatically triggers the landing check)

5) If a written do list or checklist is broken ( ie stopped by some external force) either start over from the beginning or place you thumb over the last item performed and restart the checklist from that.)

6) Controlling the airplane always takes precedence over doing checklist. If you are being rushed or feel that you are behind in completing the checklist give yourself time( eg refuse the immediate takeoff clearance/ wait for the airplane on final to land

7) We are not flying the space shuttle on a re-entry maneuver. Necking down the checklist, developing a good flow and staying current means that all the checks in a light aircraft can be done quickly and completely with a minimum disruption to look out and flying the airplane

8 ) Checklist discipline is a choice. You can make a personal commitment to following good checking practices on every flight......or not.

[photofly]

+1 to all that. Especially to not using a checklist as a “how to fly” list of instructions to do.

[pelmet]

Here's the revised take off checklist... it's 6x safer!

checklist.jpg

I think it would be useful to return to first principals ( to be clear I am talking about single pilot GA operations)

-Do list: A written checklist where the pilots reads an action, does the action and then reads the next item, does it etc etc

-Checklist; A written checklist which is read after all actions are completed by a flow or memory to confirm all actions were done

- Flow check: This where the physical layout of the cockpit is used to perform actions is an orderly consistent way. ( eg, for a C 172 a prelanding flow that starts at the fuel selector, goes up to the carb heat and mixture controls, over to the lower switch panel and finishes with the brake check)

- Memory check: checks done solely by memory, usually with the aid of a mnemonic ( eg GUMPS)

-SOP: Procedures which are regularly performed but are not part of a formal checklist ( eg brake check just as the aircraft starts to move from its parking spot, or turning on strobes when entering runway)

Like most things in aviation there is more than one philosophy how to do something. The remainder of this post is BPF's opinion. Constructive
feedback is welcomed

1) Human factors research indicates that shorter checklist work better than longer ones. Flight schools tend to have very long checklists because they tend to include a lot of SOP item, or even "how to fly items" in the checklist. They also tend to indiscriminately mix do and checklist in one document

2) Do lists and checklists should only cover items which will have a significant adverse affect on safe fight if they are missed. So for example IMO not turning on your transponder does not have a immediate safety impact and so should be a line up SOP not a checklist item.

3) Do lists should only be done when the airplane is stopped on the ground or in stable enroute flight. Everything else is a checklist. Personally I don't like mnemonics so all my checklist are designed to be done after a flow.

4) Checklist should be driven by phase of flight ( eg the descent check is always done commencing descent from cruise altitude or before entering the CZ or selecting gear down automatically triggers the landing check)

5) If a written do list or checklist is broken ( ie stopped by some external force) either start over from the beginning or place you thumb over the last item performed and restart the checklist from that.)

6) Controlling the airplane always takes precedence over doing checklist. If you are being rushed or feel that you are behind in completing the checklist give yourself time( eg refuse the immediate takeoff clearance/ wait for the airplane on final to land

7) We are not flying the space shuttle on a re-entry maneuver. Necking down the checklist, developing a good flow and staying current means that all the checks in a light aircraft can be done quickly and completely with a minimum disruption to look out and flying the airplane

8 ) Checklist discipline is a choice. You can make a personal commitment to following good checking practices on every flight......or not.

Thank you BPF and PilotDaddy for taking the time to make your last posts. What a classic example of the difference between a 'new green instructor' and professionalism.

Beware who you choose for an instructor.

[Pilotdaddy]

Beware who you choose for an instructor.

But... I modeled my checklist after yours. I feel betrayed!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Here's the revised take off checklist... it's 6x safer!

checklist.jpg

I think it would be useful to return to first principals ( to be clear I am talking about single pilot GA operations)

-Do list: A written checklist where the pilots reads an action, does the action and then reads the next item, does it etc etc

-Checklist; A written checklist which is read after all actions are completed by a flow or memory to confirm all actions were done

- Flow check: This where the physical layout of the cockpit is used to perform actions is an orderly consistent way. ( eg, for a C 172 a prelanding flow that starts at the fuel selector, goes up to the carb heat and mixture controls, over to the lower switch panel and finishes with the brake check)

- Memory check: checks done solely by memory, usually with the aid of a mnemonic ( eg GUMPS)

-SOP: Procedures which are regularly performed but are not part of a formal checklist ( eg brake check just as the aircraft starts to move from its parking spot, or turning on strobes when entering runway)

Like most things in aviation there is more than one philosophy how to do something. The remainder of this post is BPF's opinion. Constructive
feedback is welcomed

1) Human factors research indicates that shorter checklist work better than longer ones. Flight schools tend to have very long checklists because they tend to include a lot of SOP item, or even "how to fly items" in the checklist. They also tend to indiscriminately mix do and checklist in one document

2) Do lists and checklists should only cover items which will have a significant adverse affect on safe fight if they are missed. So for example IMO not turning on your transponder does not have a immediate safety impact and so should be a line up SOP not a checklist item.

3) Do lists should only be done when the airplane is stopped on the ground or in stable enroute flight. Everything else is a checklist. Personally I don't like mnemonics so all my checklist are designed to be done after a flow.

4) Checklist should be driven by phase of flight ( eg the descent check is always done commencing descent from cruise altitude or before entering the CZ or selecting gear down automatically triggers the landing check)

5) If a written do list or checklist is broken ( ie stopped by some external force) either start over from the beginning or place you thumb over the last item performed and restart the checklist from that.)

6) Controlling the airplane always takes precedence over doing checklist. If you are being rushed or feel that you are behind in completing the checklist give yourself time( eg refuse the immediate takeoff clearance/ wait for the airplane on final to land

7) We are not flying the space shuttle on a re-entry maneuver. Necking down the checklist, developing a good flow and staying current means that all the checks in a light aircraft can be done quickly and completely with a minimum disruption to look out and flying the airplane

8 ) Checklist discipline is a choice. You can make a personal commitment to following good checking practices on every flight......or not.

Thank you BPF and PilotDaddy for taking the time to make your last posts. What a classic example of the difference between a 'new green instructor' and professionalism.

Beware who you choose for an instructor.

To return to the thread topic and just to be absolutely clear you will notice that nowhere in my post do I mention the "killer items check" and as I have said repeated I do not support your rational for this check

[pelmet]

Here's the revised take off checklist... it's 6x safer!

checklist.jpg

I think it would be useful to return to first principals ( to be clear I am talking about single pilot GA operations)

-Do list: A written checklist where the pilots reads an action, does the action and then reads the next item, does it etc etc

-Checklist; A written checklist which is read after all actions are completed by a flow or memory to confirm all actions were done

- Flow check: This where the physical layout of the cockpit is used to perform actions is an orderly consistent way. ( eg, for a C 172 a prelanding flow that starts at the fuel selector, goes up to the carb heat and mixture controls, over to the lower switch panel and finishes with the brake check)

- Memory check: checks done solely by memory, usually with the aid of a mnemonic ( eg GUMPS)

-SOP: Procedures which are regularly performed but are not part of a formal checklist ( eg brake check just as the aircraft starts to move from its parking spot, or turning on strobes when entering runway)

Like most things in aviation there is more than one philosophy how to do something. The remainder of this post is BPF's opinion. Constructive
feedback is welcomed

1) Human factors research indicates that shorter checklist work better than longer ones. Flight schools tend to have very long checklists because they tend to include a lot of SOP item, or even "how to fly items" in the checklist. They also tend to indiscriminately mix do and checklist in one document

2) Do lists and checklists should only cover items which will have a significant adverse affect on safe fight if they are missed. So for example IMO not turning on your transponder does not have a immediate safety impact and so should be a line up SOP not a checklist item.

3) Do lists should only be done when the airplane is stopped on the ground or in stable enroute flight. Everything else is a checklist. Personally I don't like mnemonics so all my checklist are designed to be done after a flow.

4) Checklist should be driven by phase of flight ( eg the descent check is always done commencing descent from cruise altitude or before entering the CZ or selecting gear down automatically triggers the landing check)

5) If a written do list or checklist is broken ( ie stopped by some external force) either start over from the beginning or place you thumb over the last item performed and restart the checklist from that.)

6) Controlling the airplane always takes precedence over doing checklist. If you are being rushed or feel that you are behind in completing the checklist give yourself time( eg refuse the immediate takeoff clearance/ wait for the airplane on final to land

7) We are not flying the space shuttle on a re-entry maneuver. Necking down the checklist, developing a good flow and staying current means that all the checks in a light aircraft can be done quickly and completely with a minimum disruption to look out and flying the airplane

8 ) Checklist discipline is a choice. You can make a personal commitment to following good checking practices on every flight......or not.

Thank you BPF and PilotDaddy for taking the time to make your last posts. What a classic example of the difference between a 'new green instructor' and professionalism.

Beware who you choose for an instructor.

To return to the thread topic and just to be absolutely clear you will notice that nowhere in my post do I mention the "killer items check" and as I have said repeated I do not support your rational for this check

Thanks,

I understand that. But I respect the professionalism of your reply(and the time it took to write it) compared to the immaturity of the new green instructor(and several others). I welcome intelligent discussion on differences of opinion, and yours fits the bill. It doesn't have ridiculous, far out scenarios and seems to have plenty of common sense. A good example for those new students trying to choose the quality instructor.

Updated: His next post says it all, with him getting the last word of course(but I am sure his intentions were genuine when he was thanking me for advice earlier ).

[Pilotdaddy]

Thanks,

I understand that. But I respect the professionalism of your reply(and the time it took to write it) compared to the immaturity of the new green instructor(and several others). I welcome intelligent discussion on differences of opinion, and yours fits the bill. It doesn't have ridiculous, far out scenarios and seems to have plenty of common sense. A good example for those new students trying to choose the quality instructor.

There is not even a question that BPF is a supremely much more of a higher caliber instructor than I am, that's for sure.

What's also for sure is, once again, you've tired me out Mr. Pelmet! You really are the king of longevity... a master of beating a dead horse. Practically no one in this entire thread agrees with you, yet you fail to have an open mind and hurl insults to those who disagree. Good for you! If that's professionalism, I don't want any of it.

I bow down... You will have the last word. In the meantime, let me finish up with my 6 checklists...

[‘Bob’]

https://youtu.be/nUY5eNwu8S8