Conservatives...

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:27 pm

You can vote when ever you damn well feel like it, just go to the returning office, I voted 3 weeks ago.....

LH · Post by LH » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:35 am

CID -----final comment directed towards you and then I'll retire.

1) "Yes"....I posted the figures regarding Winnipeg that I HAD NO IDEA AND COULDN'T PROVE were accurate because I had no clue nor took the time to find out HOW they were collected. I live in Winnipeg and have a clue about their figures, BUT I don't also live in all of the rest of Canada at the same time. Just because something has the stamp "StatCan" on it means "diddley" UNTIL you find out HOW that information was collected.........or are you one of those poor naive Canadians who believe that just because some information is produced by an arm of the Canadian Government, it has with gone "due diligence" and that stamp therefore gives it more "Validity" than from some other source?

If your "blinkered" purpose is to state that I was incorrect in using those figures, then "No" I wasn't because you came back with figures that you couldn't prove either and therefore YOU didn't know if those were correct either and for the exact same reasons as I had. THAT was my whole purpose because if you say something like that about firearms in particular, most Canadians will immediately turn their eyes south and start spewing American Statistics about something, ASSUMING that both countries' laws and collection methods are the same or almost so. I was not trying to 'trap' anyone with the intention of "putting them down" at all. It was a 'trap' set to prove a point that when comparing issues such as this, using American "Stats" about this subject, just doesn't work because of a host of differences.....some of which I've already stated. It would be much more accurate to pick another country in the world who compares more closely with regards governmental set-up and laws are concerned.......such as Australia, although they are farther away.

Here's some more differences between Canada and the US on this issue:

1) The owning and use of firearms is a "Privlege" in Canada, as is owning real estate and property........in the USA both are "Rights" guaranteed in their Constitution........so owning one and defending the other takes on a WHOLE different meaning in the USA. Defend you home or property in the USA and kill someone in doing so and it's altogether different than doing the same thing in Canada because in Canada, YOU might be the one serving time in a prison for doing so.

2) ALL Canadians, in ALL Provinces and Territories of Canada have the total control oveer their owning and using of firearms controlled by the Federal government........not so in he USA, where States also set rules in regard to their ownership and use and that cannot be over-ruled by their Federal government. Their penalties are theirs alone and vary widely from State to State.

3) We are a nation of 32,000,000, with our most populated Province being Ontario and Toronto being our largest city with an approximate population of the GTA of about 4.1M people. The USA has 294,000,000 and the State of California alone almost equals the entire population of Canada. It's largest city is New York and in the Greater New York area, inlcuding all it's buroughs, the population is almost half of the entire population of Canada.

3) Their laws are different and in one State, "Theft Over $200" is a "Felony Charge" and anything under is a "Misdomeanor". In another State, that amount would have to be $1000 to be a "Felony". In Canada, the Federal Criminal Code of Canada reigns supreme and will decide what qualifies as an "Indictable Offense" and what is "Summary Conviction". Steal or embezzel over $2000 and you fall unbder that Code.........and the Provinces have NOTHING to say about that and the charge laid will be an "Indictable" charge.

4) The penalties for crimes of "Homicide" and "Attempted Homicide" vary widely across the USA, BUT there is some common ground amongst the States. The "Death Penalty" can be sentenced, BUT that may be by hanging (one State only) to lethal injection of drugs. If the sentence is "Life", then that is 99 years. If it's "Attempted Homicide", then the sentence ranges from 30-50 years. In Canada only 1st Degree (Capital) Murder (murder that was pre-planned) will get a sentence of "Life" and that is 25 years. "Attempted Murder" will get you a maximum of 14 years.

There are some areas where comparison between us and the USA is valid, but there are certain other area areas where where their history, laws, governments and heavy concentrations of population differ too greatly to make any comparisons valid. As already mentioned, they have 51 different ways of collecting their "Statistics" because all States do it differently.

CID · Post by **CID** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:12 am

LH,

Regarding your latest essay, I'll give you 75% for accuracy, 0% for relavancy, and about 50% for further twisting your original argument about Winnipeg's murder rate.

1) The owning and use of firearms is a "Privlege" in Canada, as is owning real estate and property........in the USA both are "Rights" guaranteed in their Constitution........

You need to be a bit careful when you write about the US second amendment to the constitution.

There has been a great deal of turmoil with respect to the "RIGHT to bear arms". You should never state it out of context as it means nothing as a standalone statement.

The proper context is:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Arguably, (and yes it has been argued in the US for a looooong time) the second amendment was a measure instituted for a specific purpose at the time and is quite outdated. Others argue that the "right" to bear arms relates to the military. In the "olden days" , military forces were often hastily organized by collecting up as many available men as possible and quickly moving them to the area of conflict. This meant that the only effective way to be prepared was to maintain a militia force. Dictionary.com defines "militia" as:

1. An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.

2. A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.

3. The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.

This is a great way to (as a popular cartoon character has quipped) "Keep the king of England out of your face".

In modern times (like...right NOW) it is reasonable to assume that the US Armed Forces have now assumed the role of defense for the country and the need for militia has been assumed by organizations like the state National Guards and other reserve organizations.

Does this mean that all citizens of the US have the "right" to retain and bear arms? Many US citizens and legislators say "no".
So with respect to the interpretation of laws (especially in foreign countries where you do not live) and statistics, you need to be very careful when interpreting them.

http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm

so owning one and defending the other takes on a WHOLE different meaning in the USA. Defend you home or property in the USA and kill someone in doing so and it's altogether different than doing the same thing in Canada because in Canada, YOU might be the one serving time in a prison for doing so.

Don't forget "reasonable force". If an American who leagally owns a firearm shoots an unarmed trespasser, he may be serving time in prison too. It all depends on if the courts rule he/she used "reasonable force". It's much the same here in Canada.

You can read up on the definition here:

http://law.enotes.com/wests-law-encyclo ... able-force

And here's a cute little story about some guy who shot trespassers.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9359296/

We are a nation of 32,000,000, with our most populated Province being Ontario and Toronto being our largest city with an approximate population of the GTA of about 4.1M people.

What is your source for the population of the GTA? All my sources say that there are over 5 million in the GTA (approximately). Thats about 20% higher than your figure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Toronto_Area

http://www.toronto.ca/business_publicat ... a_2031.pdf

http://www.greatertoronto.org/investing_demo_03.htm

http://www.toronto.ca/toronto_facts/diversity.htm

The "Death Penalty" can be sentenced, BUT that may be by hanging (one State only) to lethal injection of drugs. If the sentence is "Life", then that is 99 years.

You forgot to mention that many states don't have a "death penalty". I think that's an important point.

As already mentioned, they have 51 different ways of collecting their "Statistics" because all States do it differently.

I'm pretty sure there are only 50 states in the US. Check out this link if you want to learn more! (because "knowledge is power!")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:50 am

Thank you for saving me the trouble of pointing out the "militia" argument CID.

LH · Post by LH » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:02 pm

CID

1) Your less than everage intelligence has now amptly been demonstrated.

2) I am also a citizen of the United States as well as Canada. I was born in Canada and went ot school in Canada as well as the US. I did part of my university in the US and finished it off in Canada. My Major was American Governmental Studies. I've lived in the US and served two years in their military. I did none of the foregoing using a computer, a website or watching movies.......it was ALL first person experience. I can most assuredly tell you that I KNOW exactly what I am speaking about and that knowledge is out-weighed only by your stupidity of items concernig the US. It will forever remain a mystery to me how Canadians can live right next door to another country and be so colossally ignorant of even the simplest facts about that nation.

3) Your point about the present heated discussions Stateside about the First Amendment is a total and absolutely "red-herring" and once again demonstrates your particular ignorance of America. It is also your OPINION and the OPINIONS of others that the "Right To Bear Arms" is outdated and was meant for other times, BUT that is not stated ANYWHERE in the US Constitution sir. IF you and those of like opinion are correct, then that also applies to EVERY OTHER section of the US Consitution because nowhere do those Rights or Amendments state that they were also meant for a certain time-frame or have a "time expiry date"......so YOU and others ALSO be careful what you wish for because you then bring the rest of the Consitution into doubt also. If you had any knowledge whatsoever of what is involved to make an Amendment to the US Consitution, you'd then understand something of what you were talking about.

The numbers of Americans who have never served in any Service or National Guard of the US is minute. If you serve in the Regular military and muster-out, you are IMMEDIATELY switched to the Reserve, Whether you like it or not and there you stay until you draw your last breath or are released do to age and/or heath issues. The American military is not only treeated as a military entity in the US. Their GI Bill is huge and is used by tens of millions to educate themselves and their offspring and a whole host of other items. I ontained my Degree using the GI Bill and they paid for the WHOLE thing, including $2,500/mth living expenses. THAT is why many, many people serve in the National Guards and Regular Forces sir, so forget all about the flag-waving on their part. So interpret that Right as literally as you wish on EITHER side of the border and the vast majority of Americans WILL STILL have the Right to own weapons because the vast majority of the US has served either in the Regular military or a National Guard at some point......and many for the reasons stated.

4) There were 49 States in the Union when I statrted breathing on this earth and that number has changed over the years. Was I mistaken on that number......"Yes" I was and have been before as have a whole bunch of Americans themselves before me.

We have digressed greatly from the original discussion, I've made my points that I intended to make and replied only because your ignorance of a neighbour who lives maybe no more than a two hour drive away continues to amaze and baffle me as to how that can be. That ignorance abounds across Canada and amongst many in this city that is 45 minutes from American soil.

CID · Post by **CID** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:21 pm

1) Your less than everage intelligence has now amptly been demonstrated.

If you are going to attack someone's intelligence, you should really try to spell correctly.

It will forever remain a mystery to me how Canadians can live right next door to another country and be so colossally ignorant of even the simplest facts about that nation.

Like how many states there are?

Your point about the present heated discussions Stateside about the First Amendment is a total and absolutely "red-herring" and once again demonstrates your particular ignorance of America.

Its the SECOND amendment, not the first. The first amendment protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference. Unless of course shooting a deer with a bazooka is your idea of "freedom of expression".

IF you and those of like opinion are correct, then that also applies to EVERY OTHER section of the US Consitution because nowhere do those Rights or Amendments state that they were also meant for a certain time-frame or have a "time expiry date"......

Many of the amendments to the US Constitution were temporary and had expiry dates. At least one was repealed because it was "outdated". Remember Prohibition?

The Constitution is open to "amendment" as required so why do you think amendments aren't? Perhaps you should read up on the US Constitution since you're a citizen and all.

http://www.house.gov/house/Educate.shtml

There were 49 States in the Union when I statrted breathing on this earth and that number has changed over the years.

How many states were there when you started breathing on the planet you are currently inhabiting? I bet it has NEVER been 51.

I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah!
- Grandpa Simpson

LH, I reserve this statement for a very small group on this planet, but you sir, are an idiot.

Brewguy · Post by **Brewguy** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:24 pm

LH wrote: It will forever remain a mystery to me how Canadians can live right next door to another country and be so colossally ignorant of even the simplest facts about that nation.

If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black - I don't know what is. I am not going to get into a pissing contest here, saying that the majority of Canadians know a lot about the US... as I have no solid proof of that either way. However, the average US citizen knows SFA about Canada. Hell, even the well educated ones repetedly demonstrate their ignorance of the subject. I am not saying everyone in the US is ignorant of Canada - as many are interested, either due to business relationships or because of friends / family. But all you have to do is watch, listen to or read most any type of US media to know that they are (in general) woefully ignorant.

Again, please don't take this as "US bashing" - but your comment about "it will forever be a mystery" should be directed towards the citizens of both countries, not just at Canadians. It also has to be stated that we are subjected to far more US culture here in Canada, then they are subjected to our culture in the USA. Heck, until the CRTC implemented the manditory Canadian content for radio & tv - Canadians only had local/regional Canadian content available - the rest was from the US.

LH: many of the other points you made are valid (edit: not necessarily the points above, but over the duration of this 8 page pissing contest) - but this one is completly unfair... You have to see that it goes both ways.

Brewguy · Post by **Brewguy** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:31 pm

Ad nauseam
Anybody else agree?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. wrote:Ad nauseam

(Ad nauseam is a Latin term used to describe something that has been continuing "to the point of nausea." For example "This topic has been discussed ad nauseam": it has been discussed extensively and everyone has tired of it. It is a form of proof by assertion.

Argumentum ad nauseam or argument from repetition is the false proof of a statement by (prolonged) repetition, possibly by different people. This logical fallacy is commonly used as a form of rhetoric by politicians, and it is one of the mechanisms of reinforcing urban legends. In its extreme form, it can also be a form of brainwashing. Though a logical fallacy, nonetheless it is convincing to people because, as one of history's main practitioners of this propaganda technique, Lenin, observed, if something is repeated as true often enough, people will eventually come to believe it is true.

Modern politics is fraught with examples of argumentum ad nauseam, and wide acceptance of many policies and perspectives is driven in part by the endless repetition of slogans. The exercise of argumentum ad nauseam can be widely observed in the distribution of "talking points," which are collections of short phrases that are issued to members of modern political parties for recitation to achieve maximum message repetition.

This phrase is often misspelled "ad nauseum".

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:06 pm

LH wrote:2) I am also a citizen of the United States as well as Canada. I was born in Canada and went ot school in Canada as well as the US. I did part of my university in the US and finished it off in Canada. My Major was American Governmental Studies. I've lived in the US and served two years in their military. I did none of the foregoing using a computer, a website or watching movies.......it was ALL first person experience. I can most assuredly tell you that I KNOW exactly what I am speaking about and that knowledge is out-weighed only by your stupidity of items concernig the US. It will forever remain a mystery to me how Canadians can live right next door to another country and be so colossally ignorant of even the simplest facts about that nation.

We have digressed greatly from the original discussion, I've made my points that I intended to make and replied only because your ignorance of a neighbour who lives maybe no more than a two hour drive away continues to amaze and baffle me as to how that can be. That ignorance abounds across Canada and amongst many in this city that is 45 minutes from American soil.

Oh please. Spare us the "We're all so ignorant of the US" crock of shit. Ask 100 Americans who the Prime Minister of Canada is; then ask 100 Canadians who the President of the USA is. Try the same thing with national capitals. Our ignorance of them is but a mere drop in the bucket of their collective ignorance of everything that exists beyond their own borders including Canada and Canadians.

3) Your point about the present heated discussions Stateside about the First Amendment is a total and absolutely "red-herring" and once again demonstrates your particular ignorance of America.

Yeah...uh.......speaking of demonstrating ignorance....I believe it's the second amendment.

Most will agree that the second amendment is not nearly as cut and dry as you would make it seem. It is open to widely varying interpretations which cannot conclusively be deemed correct or incorrect. To say that your interpretation is correct and someone else's is just plain incorrect is to be narrow-minded and in fact wrong. Since you don't view the internet as a valuable learning tool (only being at least half-American is good enough for you) here's some excerpts from the Yale Law Journal, Volume 99,pp. 637-659 Sanford Levinson.

I begin with the appeal to text. Recall the Second Amendment: "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." No one has ever described the Constitution as a marvel of clarity, and the Second Amendment is perhaps one of the worst drafted of all its provisions. What is special about the Amendment is the inclusion of an opening clause -- a preamble, if you will -- that seems to set out its purpose. No similar clause is part of any other Amendment, [38] though that does not, of course, mean that we do not ascribe purposes to them. It would be impossible to make sense of the Constitution if we did not engage in the ascription of purpose.
.....
This purposive reading quickly disposes of any notion that there is an "individual" right to keep and bear arms. The right, if such it be, is only a states's right.
.....
Consider once more the preamble and its reference to the importance of a well-regulated militia. Is the meaning of the term obvious? Perhaps we should make some effort to find out what the term "militia" meant to 18th century readers and writers, rather than assume that it refers only to Dan Quayle's Indiana National Guard and the like. By no means am I arguing that the discovery of that meaning is dispositive as to the general meaning of the Constitution for us today. But it seems foolhardy to be entirely uninterested in the historical philology behind the Second Amendment.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:35 pm

shimmydampner wrote: Oh please. Spare us the "We're all so ignorant of the US" crock of shit. Ask 100 Americans who the Prime Minister of Canada is; then ask 100 Canadians who the President of the USA is. Try the same thing with national capitals. Our ignorance of them is but a mere drop in the bucket of their collective ignorance of everything that exists beyond their own borders including Canada and Canadians.

Why not ask 100 Canadians who the President of Mexico is? I bet you most of us wouldn't even know whether they have a President or a Prime Minister. Geographically speaking, the US should know as little about us as they do Mexico. We are like a northern state. They should know who our leader is as much as they know who the Governor of Alaska is, if they even have one, I don't know. We have a population of 32 million and California has a population of 33 million.

nblythin was right. We are both ignorant of each other. The problem is that Canada receives continous media about the US whereas the US probably doesn't even realise that Canada is in the middle of a federal election nor should they. For the US to know less about us should be expected and it's embarrasing that we don't know as much about the US as the state of Alaska does with all the American media that we're exposed to every day.

CID · Post by **CID** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:53 pm

Why not ask 100 Canadians who the President of Mexico is?

Manuel Labour? Speedy Gonzales? Frito Bandito?

I have to agree with justplanecrazy. Although it's fun to laugh at some of the mistakes Americans make with geography, we must remember that it's easy to make someone look like an idiot if they aren't aware of the issues or context surrounding the question.

For example, asking an American about crossing Peter Mans-Bridge is just stupid. Why on earth should the average American know or even care who Peter Mansbridge is?

Furthermore, Canada has more than it's fair share of ignorance. Just look at LH's posts. On average, I agree that Canadians are generally more aware of other countries than Americans, but not by much. And our knowledge pales in comparison to the youth of some other countries.

I do have a good "ignorant American" story that is funny though. Recently I was on a flight that happened to originate in California and had a stop in Minneapolis. When we landed in Minneapolis a young lady (about 17) asked her mother what the local time was. The mother said "Well we're about half way across the US so add 12 hours." The daughter questioned the accuracy of her mother's statement so she said, "Well...it's at least 6 hours".

Now I'm just assuming the lady and her daughter were American since it was an NWA flight wholly within the US and they spoke with no distinguishable accent, but they could just as easily have been from Winnipeg.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:25 pm

CID wrote:
For example, asking an American about crossing Peter Mans-Bridge is just stupid. Why on earth should the average American know or even care who Peter Mansbridge is?

Ya but prime minister poutine is pretty funny though.

Rick Mercer makes me giggle.

CID · Post by **CID** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:36 pm

Ya but prime minister poutine is pretty funny though.

Totally agree. I laughed my ass off over Rick Mercer's special. But...ask the average Saskatchewan farmer what poutine is and I expect a great deal of them don't know.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:36 pm

CID wrote:
Ya but prime minister poutine is pretty funny though.
Totally agree. I laughed my ass off over Rick Mercer's special. But...ask the average Saskatchewan farmer what poutine is and I expect a great deal of them don't know.

ya

shimmydampner · Post by **shimmydampner** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:39 pm

justplanecrazy wrote: nblythin was right. We are both ignorant of each other.

True, but my point is you can't say that we're more ignorant of them than they of us.

justplanecrazy wrote:Why not ask 100 Canadians who the President of Mexico is?

Vincent Fox is it not?

Brewguy · Post by **Brewguy** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:06 pm

Dust Devil wrote:Ya but prime minister poutine is pretty funny though.

Not that I'm defending GWB on this one, but you can understand how he was confused... after all he probably knew that there was a foreign leader with that name (well sort of) - Vladimir Putin.

Prime Minister Poutine vs. President Putin.
I can see how that would be enough to confuse poor ol' George W.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:13 pm

And us Canadians is so smart, we knows the Californian Govnor 2, he's Arnold, see them's yankees wouldz notz knows who our Priemers is ethers.

justplanecrazy wrote:Furthermore, Canada has more than it's fair share of ignorance...
The problem is that Canada receives continous media about the US whereas the US probably doesn't even realise that Canada is in the middle of a federal election nor should they. For the US to know less about us should be expected and it's embarrasing that we don't know as much about the US as the state of Alaska does with all the American media that we're exposed to every day.

So so true.. =)

PS. I'm sure 100% of the Yanks and Canucks would say that hockey is Canada's national sport...

But in fact they'd be wrong on a TC exam, Hockey is only Canada's National Winter Sport. So have a good day, i'm going out to play lacrosse

Sheila · Post by **Sheila** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:26 pm

Well, Steven Harper did pretty good tonight on the CBC forum, "your turn".

But he didn't handle the question on "social justice" very well, because he answered it by saying he's committed to healthcare, but oh well, guess he forgot to say that it is part of the Senate reform he mentioned earlier. Ack! there's so much I want to say to Mr. Harper on where to find money, hope he's smart enough to find it, maybe he should hire me, but do you think he will hire women in his office? I'm wondering if you people think it's a big deal if senior civil service want to leave? What does that say about them?

Siddley Hawker · Post by **Siddley Hawker** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:37 pm

What I'd love to see Mercer do is park his mike in front of the Parliament buildings and ask some of the exiting Honourable Members a few questions. Start off by asking who's the name of Honourable Member from Dildo or the Honourable Member from St. Paul-de-la-Rive-Nord-de-Pike-River. They're honest questions, since the first town's in Newfoundland and the other's down southwest of Quebec City.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:16 pm

Siddley Hawker wrote:What I'd love to see Mercer do is park his mike in front of the Parliament buildings and ask some of the exiting Honourable Members a few questions.

Isn't it Harper or is it McGuinty? Who wants to force MP(P)s and senators to be present atleast 75% of the time for the "sittings?"

Anyways, I think he might be waiting for sometime to get an answer from our "hard workers."