Negotiations

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Ash Ketchum
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Ash Ketchum »

I don't see wages raising here unless the US airlines offer employment based sponsorship which is not the case yet. Seems like enough of the flying at Jazz is being covered by WDOs so pay isn't increasing. Sure, Canadian pilots can get the FAA ATP but then they need to struggle through the long and expensive process of getting the EB-2 NIW approved and many who are willing to go (myself included) do not meet the EB-2 NIW experience threshold of 10 years aviation experience and over 5000 flight hours.
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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

According to Joe Randell - CHR CEO:

“One topic that is being discussed with greater frequency lately is pilots. So I thought, it would be useful to provide some context. Canadian aviation industry is expected to experience increasing demand for pilots. However, Jazz is well positioned to attract and retain pilots with its pilot flow agreement to Air Canada and with Jazz and Air Canada teams working together to ensure a coordinated and smooth pilot flow process. We believe these agreements and processes will continue to allow us to proactively and effectively manage pilot recruitment.”

CHR Q3 2022 Earnings analyst call.
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daedalusx
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Re: Negotiations

Post by daedalusx »

Wake up people, they don't give a @#$! about your wages or the flow agreement because you're willing to work the tiller for 80K a year and you keep picking up that phone call on your day off to help pay for that 750k townhouse mortgage of yours and they'll keep putting 250 hours wonders on the right seat.
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Inverted2
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Inverted2 »

Rowdy wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:54 am Lots of jazz and ac folk getting their FAA ATPLS currently..


6-7k out of pocket.. but lots of LARGE hiring and retention bonuses south of the 49th to offset that. Plus the massively higher wages, better working conditions and lower living costs.

Seems there is a large lack of faith in negotiations here north of the border.

Anyone have any cute American friends? :wink:
Tinder my friend…. On US layovers. Throw out enough lines and you’ll eventually land yourself a big fish. 8)
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pirep
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Re: Negotiations

Post by pirep »

rudder wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:04 pm According to Joe Randell - CHR CEO:

“One topic that is being discussed with greater frequency lately is pilots. So I thought, it would be useful to provide some context. Canadian aviation industry is expected to experience increasing demand for pilots. However, Jazz is well positioned to attract and retain pilots with its pilot flow agreement to Air Canada and with Jazz and Air Canada teams working together to ensure a coordinated and smooth pilot flow process. We believe these agreements and processes will continue to allow us to proactively and effectively manage pilot recruitment.”

CHR Q3 2022 Earnings analyst call.
Aka endless stream of 250hr pilots from colleges. No need to raise wages with that demand!
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tango308
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Re: Negotiations

Post by tango308 »

pirep wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:21 pm Aka endless stream of 250hr pilots from colleges. No need to raise wages with that demand!
This is not the type of candidate that Jazz is after at the moment. The endless stream of Seneca student is useless without someone sitting next to them with an ATPL. Now how to attract those? Not with PCC ads that's for sure.

If this is not solved quickly (aka within 2-3 months) I predict Jazz will be parking aircraft for the summer '23 dues to lack of captains.
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Nick678
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Nick678 »

It doesn’t seem that jazz is in a hurry to fill the 250 plus spots that are supposed to flow to AC by year end so I don’t think they’ll be parking planes anytime soon.
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canadian_aviator_4
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Re: Negotiations

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

If flow doesn’t make an attempt to reach the 250 gap by year end, I’m sure many will leave, resulting in Jazz being short staffed anyway.
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RegionalPilot
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Re: Negotiations

Post by RegionalPilot »

Nick678 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:02 am It doesn’t seem that jazz is in a hurry to fill the 250 plus spots that are supposed to flow to AC by year end so I don’t think they’ll be parking planes anytime soon.
The simple reason is they can’t train that many people. They did a big wave of hiring recently, and adding all the upgrades, the training staff is 100% booked.
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Loon-A-Tic
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

If it's just a question of money then how much, is Porter remuneration the new "gold standard". What percentage of an increase would the negotiations to secure in order to elevate Jazz's pay scale to match Porter's.
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sstaurus
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Re: Negotiations

Post by sstaurus »

I think pilots overestimate the amount who will just 'leave' because their flow is taking too long. Leave where? This is Canada, if you're at Jazz you've probably had your sights on Big Red the whole time and most aren't going to give that up to gamble at one of the rickety ULCC options. Even if you said WJ, well that's a coin toss you might as well ride it out at Jazz.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Negotiations

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

sstaurus wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:02 am I think pilots overestimate the amount who will just 'leave' because their flow is taking too long. Leave where? This is Canada, if you're at Jazz you've probably had your sights on Big Red the whole time and most aren't going to give that up to gamble at one of the rickety ULCC options. Even if you said WJ, well that's a coin toss you might as well ride it out at Jazz.
It’s no longer a “gamble” though. AC hires more and more from Flair etc each groundschool.
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sstaurus
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Re: Negotiations

Post by sstaurus »

But would they look kindly on someone who quit jazz just to get around the flow? How long would you have to stay at Flair to be 'forgiven'...
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kiaszceski
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Re: Negotiations

Post by kiaszceski »

sstaurus wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:03 pm But would they look kindly on someone who quit jazz just to get around the flow? How long would you have to stay at Flair to be 'forgiven'...
3 months at Swoop.
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Re: Negotiations

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

sstaurus wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:03 pm But would they look kindly on someone who quit jazz just to get around the flow? How long would you have to stay at Flair to be 'forgiven'...
They don’t care one iota.
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Nick678
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Nick678 »

I talked to an AC recruiter and they give zero F***’s where you were before. They hire based on your credentials, flight experience, bilingualism, education, etc…

Considering they seem to be ignoring flow I suggest you leave and apply externally.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Outlaw58 »

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Malfunction
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Malfunction »

Fellow Pilots,


Over the past two weeks our Negotiating Committee had opportunities to meet with the Company. Though discussions are still open, the parties remain far apart.


We will communicate more information at the end of the week.


In solidarity,



JAZ MEC
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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

Malfunction wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:56 pm Fellow Pilots,


Over the past two weeks our Negotiating Committee had opportunities to meet with the Company. Though discussions are still open, the parties remain far apart.


We will communicate more information at the end of the week.


In solidarity,



JAZ MEC
The employer is not obliged to move off status quo in a closed CBA.

And the pilot employees are not obliged to mitigate the impact of that choice by the employer.
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daedalusx
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Re: Negotiations

Post by daedalusx »

If you keep accommodating the company by picking up trips on your days off ... where’s your leverage ?
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averageatbest
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Re: Negotiations

Post by averageatbest »

Malfunction wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:56 pm Fellow Pilots,

Over the past two weeks our Negotiating Committee had opportunities to meet with the Company. Though discussions are still open, the parties remain far apart.

We will communicate more information at the end of the week.

In solidarity,

JAZ MEC
Tis' the industry standard. We'll see if Jazz management moves the ball when the Encore management proposal comes out.
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RegionalPilot
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Re: Negotiations

Post by RegionalPilot »

daedalusx wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:56 pm If you keep accommodating the company by picking up trips on your days off ... where’s your leverage ?
I will never criticize or judge a FO making 42k/year doing a WDO. If the individual needs the extra revenue, go for it, it’s within the CBA that we as a group voted for. I am nobody to judge a person’s personal situation.
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kiaszceski
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Re: Negotiations

Post by kiaszceski »

averageatbest wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:58 pm
Malfunction wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:56 pm Fellow Pilots,

Over the past two weeks our Negotiating Committee had opportunities to meet with the Company. Though discussions are still open, the parties remain far apart.

We will communicate more information at the end of the week.

In solidarity,

JAZ MEC
Tis' the industry standard. We'll see if Jazz management moves the ball when the Encore management proposal comes out.
The first ones with a new payscale are going to be Flair pilots.
If the pay is substantially higher than Encore/Jazz then we will see them increase their wawcons.
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Aspiredtofly
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Aspiredtofly »

kiaszceski wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:53 pm
averageatbest wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:58 pm
Malfunction wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:56 pm Fellow Pilots,

Over the past two weeks our Negotiating Committee had opportunities to meet with the Company. Though discussions are still open, the parties remain far apart.

We will communicate more information at the end of the week.

In solidarity,

JAZ MEC
Tis' the industry standard. We'll see if Jazz management moves the ball when the Encore management proposal comes out.
The first ones with a new payscale are going to be Flair pilots.
If the pay is substantially higher than Encore/Jazz then we will see them increase their wawcons.
So Encore and Jazz are both in contract negotiations? When can we expect a prediction or a sneak peek for the payscales and perdiems
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averageatbest
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Re: Negotiations

Post by averageatbest »

Aspiredtofly wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:21 pm
kiaszceski wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:53 pm
averageatbest wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:58 pm

Tis' the industry standard. We'll see if Jazz management moves the ball when the Encore management proposal comes out.
The first ones with a new payscale are going to be Flair pilots.
If the pay is substantially higher than Encore/Jazz then we will see them increase their wawcons.
So Encore and Jazz are both in contract negotiations? When can we expect a prediction or a sneak peek for the payscales and perdiems
Not contract negotiations per se... they are both in discussions to solve the companies' problems for as cheap as possible. Unfortunately the pilot attraction and retention issues require expensive fixes.
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