A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

[photofly]

Other jobs manage to have a way of promoting more able people

How do you know this?

The only thing you can determine is that the one who got the promotion is capable of doing their job, or not. There's no way to definitively know if they were the best choice for the promotion. Unless you promote every candidate for a month or so and see who performs the new job best. But that's highly impractical.

The joke, of course, is that competent people get promoted until they reach a level at which they are incompetent, at which point promotion ceases. Ergo, every manager is incompetent.

More seriously, there is no definitive way to know how someone will perform when promoted. I don't think that distinguishes between promotion on "merit" however you define it, and promotion on seniority. Lawyers don't queue up to qualify for partnership based on date of hire though, and then get through on a pass/fail standard test. A promotional process doesn't have to produce the "best". It merely has to try. It would be good if individual skill and endeavour was considered though. It is in most jobs. That makes piloting unusual.

[cdnavater]

The merit is, you have to be able to pass the process, it’s not a guarantee, ability plays a significant part.
Go back in the conversation, when 95% of the group are similar in capabilities, what other metric would you use?

Just looking at these two sentences together, they do rather contradict each other. If 95% of the group are similar in capabilities, then in no sense can ability play a part in whatever process is being used.

How would you apply this, if pilot A has 5000 hours and 1 year of service and pilot B has 6000 hours and 6 months of service but there is only one Captain spot available, who gets to attempt the upgrade?
What if Pilot A and B have the same date of hire, which one upgrades first if not based on seniority?

Well, simply, whichever pilot is better. It's up to pilots/airlines/the industry to decide what "better" means. Other jobs manage to have a way of promoting more able people, even from a group of peers who are all equally able to carry out their daily duties. I can make some suggestions, and you can argue with each one individually, but the concept wouldn't be impossible to implement.

I’ll rephrase, 95% of the pilots who attain a left seat are equally capable of doing the job, not all FOs who attempt the upgrade make it through.
As for your other question what percentage of FOs remain FOs? I honestly don’t know the exact but I’d be comfortable asserting that 5% works.
I will say that lately there have been significantly more failures than the past, including in the new hire FO category, as a training pilot, the work is much more and a lot less fun than it used to be.
Back when Jazz had their pick and all new hire FOs had 5000+ hours the training went much more smoothly but this is no longer the case and companies have had to adapt to the new environment we are in, which includes a more robust training program.

[rookiepilot]

Firstly, why should date of hire be considered even remotely relevant for when a pilot can achieve promotion?

Secondly, honestly what proportion of pilots never make captain and retire as first officers?

Thirdly, what is the merit-based procedure for moving from, say, n/b f/o to w/b f/o, or 737 captain to 787 captain?

If you're happy that you have a merit-based promotional structure, and that being a better pilot is the way to end up earning more by the end of your career - if you're happy that your own individual skills and efforts lead to faster promotion than some of your less able and less committed colleagues - then there's clearly nothing you could change for the better.

Haven't you heard PF? This whole site somehow is now restricted for "professional airline pilots only"

Scan your proof of ATPL and Union card to comment.

Rookie,
No proof required, you should have an understanding of how something works if you want to post an opinion on it.
I myself am not what some would call a savvy investor, therefore I would never post on a web board how to invest your money.
I might ask for advice or how it works but to simply post authoritatively on a subject I clearly know nothing about would need to be called out, that simple.

I posted on my disagreement with teachers refusing to be rated on merit -- and got called out for that too.

Are you all experts on this too? And on finance, let's not go there. See the posts on my threads on the topic, sheesh.

Seems only the "professional" pilots can comment on the correct flavor of ice cream.

[photofly]

As for your other question what percentage of FOs remain FOs? I honestly don’t know the exact but I’d be comfortable asserting that 5% works.

OK. I'll suggest that a merit-based process that weeds out only 5% of candidates isn't really merit based at all.

When a new lawyer joins a big law firm, they can imagine making partner, and earning the big $$$$. But they will know the reality that 90% of new recruits don't make it. They stay as associates, or they leave and start their own law firms (small $) or go and work in-house for respectable but by no means stellar salaries.

When a new pilot joins a 705 operation they have every confidence of retiring top of the heap as a wb captain, as long as they're employed long enough. Either they've been lied to (in which case you should be shouting it from the rooftops, because if everyone knew that was a lie then about a million things to do with pilot pay would fix themselves overnight) or else it's not a competitive process at all. If 95% of entrants all "win", then "win" takes on a whole different meaning.

[photofly]

Let's try a thought experiment.

Imagine that an airline had a simulator test ride, with a range of scenarios, from easy to deal with, to difficult - perhaps culminating in a Kobyashi Maru type situation. Every pilot would achieve a grade, according to their ability. Perhaps they could re-sit the test every year or two years, to account for improving skill, or plain bad luck on one test.

Po (as de Bono would say) that following some induction period (4 years? 5 years?) pilots were assigned seats and upgrades based in order of their test metric. 50 new captains required? The presently top-scoring 50 first officers would be invited to upgrade. Economy in recession? PIlots on the bottom rungs of testing would be laid off.

What would be the effects - both good and bad?

[cdnavater]

As for your other question what percentage of FOs remain FOs? I honestly don’t know the exact but I’d be comfortable asserting that 5% works.

OK. I'll suggest that a merit-based process that weeds out only 5% of candidates isn't really merit based at all.

When a new lawyer joins a big law firm, they can imagine making partner, and earning the big $$$$. But they will know the reality that 90% of new recruits don't make it. They stay as associates, or they leave and start their own law firms (small $) or go and work in-house for respectable but by no means stellar salaries.

When a new pilot joins a 705 operation they have every confidence of retiring top of the heap as a wb captain, as long as they're employed long enough. Either they've been lied to (in which case you should be shouting it from the rooftops, because if everyone knew that was a lie then about a million things to do with pilot pay would fix themselves overnight) or else it's not a competitive process at all. If 95% of entrants all "win", then "win" takes on a whole different meaning.

You are simplifying it too much, the process begins at the interview, in fact the sim eval instructors make notes on new hire interviewees about their upgrade potential for the final assessment.
There are/were companies known for ending up with the bottom of the barrel candidates who were PFOd from other airlines, so by that metric they were making less than other pilots doing the same job, ie; GGN. Now it seems the hiring metric has changed, this is simply due to supply and nothing to do with company preference
By the way 10% of lawyers don’t make it, not a significant difference between 5 and 10% really and mine was only an educated guess, could be in the 10% range. I could look at the seniority list and see who in the top 10% of the total list is in the right seat but that wouldn’t account for those who stay there for a better lifestyle.

[cdnavater]

Let's try a thought experiment.

Imagine that an airline had a simulator test ride, with a range of scenarios, from easy to deal with, to difficult - perhaps culminating in a Kobyashi Maru type situation. Every pilot would achieve a grade, according to their ability. Perhaps they could re-sit the test every year or two years, to account for improving skill, or plain bad luck on one test.

Po (as de Bono would say) that following some induction period (4 years? 5 years?) pilots were assigned seats and upgrades based in order of their test metric. 50 new captains required? The presently top-scoring 50 first officers would be invited to upgrade. Economy in recession? PIlots on the bottom rungs of testing would be laid off.

What would be the effects - both good and bad?

Great a method for determining the top gun, now how do we get the companies, A to care who the best is and B want to pay more for the best.
You seem to be missing, they don’t give a flying monkeys arse who is in the seat, just as long as they can do the job. There is literally NO benefit to the company to have a pilot who scores 100 over one who scores 75 as long as they both can complete the mission.
If the company doesn’t care or gain from it, what’s the point, are you suggesting we redistribute the same pie so some make more based on skill.
Who bears the cost of this simulator assessment, is it in addition to the regulatory sessions or part of it?

[digits_]

Let's try a thought experiment.

Imagine that an airline had a simulator test ride, with a range of scenarios, from easy to deal with, to difficult - perhaps culminating in a Kobyashi Maru type situation. Every pilot would achieve a grade, according to their ability. Perhaps they could re-sit the test every year or two years, to account for improving skill, or plain bad luck on one test.

Po (as de Bono would say) that following some induction period (4 years? 5 years?) pilots were assigned seats and upgrades based in order of their test metric. 50 new captains required? The presently top-scoring 50 first officers would be invited to upgrade. Economy in recession? PIlots on the bottom rungs of testing would be laid off.

What would be the effects - both good and bad?

I think that could work.

I think it would result in less people sticking around for lower wages (which is good). You'd have the danger of developing the 'old boys club' mentality where the training pilots would have sole discretion on who gets upgraded. Then again, if they really wanted to, they have a lot of power today as well.

You'd likely have some politics with the selection if your test partner. It might be possible to pass a PPC with a sub-par partner, but if your test score depends on it, I can see some tension there.

[CanadaAir]

703 two crew King Air captains who are able to make over $200,000 per year, as posted by the employer.

-.png (18.57 KiB) Viewed 5849 times

Although there are captains making less than $200,000 at the company, this shows that $200,000 or higher King Air jobs do exist and are available to experienced captains. Boost salary even more above $200,000 if you have the ability to do training or SOP development.

Still many 704 and 705 captains making less than $100,000 on Dash 8, ATR, RJ, Metros, 1900, Citations, Lear

Lots of Medevac Captain hiring right now. Long term jobs at $150,000 to over $200,000 available based in major centers or doing the week on week off, 2 on 2 off.

Better lifestyle than sitting as a junior seniority at 705s and taking 10 to 15 years to even catch up with Medevac captain salaries. Roughly same crew you work with every flight. More stable schedules and ability to vacation.


704 and 705 captains making less than $150,000 better start to learning to negotiate better terms.

[digits_]

Better lifestyle than sitting as a junior seniority at 705s and taking 10 to 15 years to even catch up with Medevac captain salaries. Roughly same crew you work with every flight. More stable schedules and ability to vacation.

That's debatable. There's a reason King Air medevac captains are starting to make so much.
People aren't passing on those jobs because of the 'King Air' (or MU2) part...

[CanadaAir]

Better lifestyle than sitting as a junior seniority at 705s and taking 10 to 15 years to even catch up with Medevac captain salaries. Roughly same crew you work with every flight. More stable schedules and ability to vacation.

That's debatable. There's a reason King Air medevac captains are starting to make so much.
People aren't passing on those jobs because of the 'King Air' (or MU2) part...

There are Medevac companies which have poor working conditions. They might be going out of business if they can't improve their working conditions and pay to find captains.

For pilots who are already experienced in 705 operations, they can contact the Medevac owners and state their terms. Experienced pilots don't have to wait for companies to post job openings or for the company to dictate the terms. Arrange a meeting with the company owner, show them your experience and ask for $150,000 to start and the working conditions you want. Don't be surprised if they agree.

If they don't agree, you still have your 705 job and they might call you this summer when they desperately need a captain or face grounding aircraft.

[cdnavater]

703 two crew King Air captains who are able to make over $200,000 per year, as posted by the employer.


-.png


Although there are captains making less than $200,000 at the company, this shows that $200,000 or higher King Air jobs do exist and are available to experienced captains. Boost salary even more above $200,000 if you have the ability to do training or SOP development.

Still many 704 and 705 captains making less than $100,000 on Dash 8, ATR, RJ, Metros, 1900, Citations, Lear

Lots of Medevac Captain hiring right now. Long term jobs at $150,000 to over $200,000 available based in major centers or doing the week on week off, 2 on 2 off.

Better lifestyle than sitting as a junior seniority at 705s and taking 10 to 15 years to even catch up with Medevac captain salaries. Roughly same crew you work with every flight. More stable schedules and ability to vacation.


704 and 705 captains making less than $150,000 better start to learning to negotiate better terms.

I’d like to know the actual mileage and what this “top mileage earner’s” logbook looks like.
I’ve done medevac and quite honestly I wouldn’t change my 150,000 705 Captain spot for that job, not even for 250,000 with a guaranteed 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off schedule, especially the Sky North position.
A couple things, this company and every single medevac operator will change the terms as soon as it suits them, if we end up with a couple companies shut down in this upcoming recession, when their resume pile has more applicants than jobs, they will “lay you off” and hire cheaper pilots, that is a fact as personally witnessed by me in the past.
The other thing, other than reserve, my schedule is pretty well guaranteed for the month, I don’t worry about being awake for 12 hours and then getting a call for a 15 hour duty day, that happens in the business.
That’s why they are paying what they are, with all the choices out there, Manitoba medevac is low on the list

[CanadaAir]

Well said.

Not much point of going Medevac for a 705 captain making $150,000 or more.

705 first officers making $60,000, with upgrades to $80,000 705 captain and no guarantee of pay raises due to 17 year contracts or lack of mainline flow. Then a $150,000 Medevac captain might be appealing.

If already in 703/4, finding a $150,000 Medevac captain might be more useful than going to a regional at $60,000.

Medevac captains have a direct path to Air Canada or WestJet, or other jobs.

[digits_]

The 150k will keep some medevac cpts at their job, and it will attract some lower time pilots into the job instead of going to jazz or encore for the 'adventure' or to pay off student loans.

It won't attract high time pilots or ex-medevac pilots. No amount of money likely could unless the lifestyle issues get addressed.

[Ash Ketchum]

Do these 150K medevac gigs allow pilots to live in major southern cities and commute on the company dime for their rotations? If so, could be a good opportunity for underpaid 705 FOs unable to afford the ever rising cost of living.

[CanadaAir]

Do these 150K medevac gigs allow pilots to live in major southern cities and commute on the company dime for their rotations? If so, could be a good opportunity for underpaid 705 FOs unable to afford the ever rising cost of living.

Several of the Medevac and King Air jobs allow pilots to live in major southern cities and also to be based there without having to commute north. The southern city is your base.

If the company wants the pilots and aircraft to do a week on week off, or 2 week on off rotation then most the companies are flying the pilots out on the company dollar, which is usually done on company aircraft, without the pilots having to pay anything. The pilots might also do the swap in the southern base and the pilots fly themselves and the aircraft out to the remote base.

Getting to and from the remote base is not a cost any pilot should absorb, and most companies dont expect this.

Even non Medevac jobs are rotating pilots in and out of the north paid by the company.
You don't have to live in the North for most 700 operators, with exception of a few seasonal camps and a few old operators.

The issue that annoys some rotational pilots is which days the pilot swaps are done on. Some companies make the pilot work a week and then swap crews on day 8, and then the pilots lose a day for travel.

It's standard for Medevac companies to pay in full for your remote accommodations, tv, remote internet & food. Medevac fly back to a southern base when doing patient transfers, so you can resupply when in the southern base.

[Ash Ketchum]

Do these 150K medevac gigs allow pilots to live in major southern cities and commute on the company dime for their rotations? If so, could be a good opportunity for underpaid 705 FOs unable to afford the ever rising cost of living.

Several of the Medevac and King Air jobs allow pilots to live in major southern cities and also to be based there without having to commute north. The southern city is your base.

If the company wants the pilots and aircraft to do a week on week off, or 2 week on off rotation then most the companies are flying the pilots out on the company dollar, which is usually done on company aircraft, without the pilots having to pay anything. The pilots might also do the swap in the southern base and the pilots fly themselves and the aircraft out to the remote base.

Getting to and from the remote base is not a cost any pilot should absorb, and most companies dont expect this.

Even non Medevac jobs are rotating pilots in and out of the north paid by the company.
You don't have to live in the North for most 700 operators, with exception of a few seasonal camps and a few old operators.

The issue that annoys some rotational pilots is which days the pilot swaps are done on. Some companies make the pilot work a week and then swap crews on day 8, and then the pilots lose a day for travel.

It's standard for Medevac companies to pay in full for your remote accommodations, tv, remote internet & food. Medevac fly back to a southern base when doing patient transfers, so you can resupply when in the southern base.

That's actually not bad. Back when I used to fly 703, captains made under 100K so I never really considered it a long term career option.

[mmm..bacon]

$200K for medevac? I'd believe that when I see it; and, if it's Manitoba-based, that's 14 hour rolling duty days, flying your azz off (it's mileage-based, remember..) shitty strips in the middle of the night, poor wx reporting, and probably more than a few days of OT.....

[CanadaAir]

What's more appealing a 705 FO on reserve making $60,000, or 703 captain time making over $120,000 only 13 days a month on duty, with 2 weeks to vacation.

--.png (116.44 KiB) Viewed 4999 times

[CanadaAir]

Why are pilots accepting the PASCO salary? Captain rates are up, $120,000 is available for ATPL and 2000 hr pilots.

PASCO base salary for Direct Entry Captains $83,347

[digits_]

What's more appealing a 705 FO on reserve making $60,000, or 703 captain time making over $120,000 only 13 days a month on duty, with 2 weeks to vacation.

--.png

it's 13 days on/ 13 days off. that's on average 15 days per month, not 13.
They are mentioning 4% vacation pay. That very likely means if you want to take a rotation off, you won't get paid.

Is Missinippi still doing rolling duty days? That's very important to know as well if you're interested in those kind of jobs.

[greygoose]

$200K for medevac? I'd believe that when I see it; and, if it's Manitoba-based, that's 14 hour rolling duty days, flying your azz off (it's mileage-based, remember..) shitty strips in the middle of the night, poor wx reporting, and probably more than a few days of OT.....

210K last year. Around 700hrs flown to get to it. It adds up quick when you're making nearly a buck a mile. Hardly any OT done last year as well, maybe a few days over the whole year. It's not a job for every pilot out there and certainly isn't as cushy as going from gate to gate. We don't push wx or fatigue (if you don't feel good about things, you don't go or you miss and go home), I've never been challenged on either by management. The flying keeps you sharp and rarely get boring. Outside of work I live a better life than most of my airline friends-especially the commuters, but to each their own. The current selection of airline jobs in Canada is nothing to write home about either. Its a pick your poison situation. I'd rather have a great life with my family when i'm not at the controls (yes, challenging at times) than be sitting in a cushy seat in a new jet or dead heading to the other end of the country thinking about how much life i'm missing out on back home.

[CanadaAir]

Most Medevac dual G1000 – nicer than old CRTs on CRJ, A320.

G1000 have newer autopilots, TCAS, and synthetic vision

EFB and software for performance & flight planning.

No flying into YYZ or LGA & hours of delays.

You should refuse to fly if the rotating schedule causes fatigue. There are medevac aircraft at other bases & flown by other operators who can cover if you get fatigued. Never fly Medevac tired.

[Dronepiper]

Minnisipi is now paying close to 140k for DEC and their base scale tops out at 170k before any per diems or other things

[rookiepilot]

This guy ain’t going to live like a meter reader or a first year FO….

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/ ... is-funeral