Canada and the C17

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mellow_pilot
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Post by mellow_pilot »

yultoto wrote:What worries me is that we are purchasing things with taxpayers money for reasons that are politically motivated, ie please people in Washington.
I suppose you're ok with buying sub-standard equipment to please people in Quebec though, aren't you? Cause that's basically what you're arguing for. For a long time, crap equipment has been given to the forces because politicians want to make Quebec businesses happy. Your precious 'democratic' input is what caused political interference in the process, not the uncontested purchase of the proper equipment for the job. So in effect you're arguing against yourself.

Need a non-aviation example? How about Grenades that don't explode? Jeeps with no heaters?
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WJflyer
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Post by WJflyer »

x-wind wrote:Wjetflyer

I think your degree in international relations makes you biased in this argument.

Plus you sound pretty hard headed with your response to yultoto.

You haven’t considered any of his arguments even creditable it seems, and to me he’s making a lot of informed points.

The C-17 was the only plane that fit the bill? Pretending to be diplomatic would work a little bit better.
His arguments have no creditability. There is no way in hell that we are buying Russian-bloc equipment. Period. Political and international realities make a CF purchase of IL-76's and/or AN-124's a non-starter. Canada and Russia do not have good relations (just look at the spy incident for starters). If the Russians ever disagreed with us, they could hold us hostage with availability of spare parts.

Had he argued that the CF instead of purchasing C-17, ordered the Airbus A400M, I would be more agreeable. Airbus is the only other possible candidate that is politically and internationally acceptable in geo-politics, besides the technical issues. Unfortunately, the A400M is suffering from further delays (the thing has been delayed for over a decade!), and it looks like it could miss the first flight in 2008. There has been lack of direction with A400M, it is like a ship without a rudder. We want our aircraft ASAP. That is why in the contract it states first delivery has been be within 18 months of the contract being signed. I was originally in favour of A400M, but due to the realities that I see everyday, C-17 is the only option that is available.
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w squared
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Post by w squared »

yultoto wrote:
w squared wrote:Yultoto, if you want to request that WJF produce evidence of the LAPES delivery into Afghanistan, you had best produce evidence that nobody in the CF is qualified to do a LAPES drop. Based on the accuracy and objectivity of information that the two of you have provided in the course of this debate, he currently has FAR more credibility than you.
Your turn. You want me to prove they did not do a LAPES drop? An you call yourself impartial? Find me one evidence I ever provided that was false. I could show you several of WJ's

Anyway..... go here to this unreliable source, I agree with you:

http://www.airforce.dnd.ca/equip/cc-130/hercules4_e.asp

Read this there:

A CC-130 Hercules conducting Low Altitude Parachute Extraction Sytem (LAPES) maneuvers. LAPES drops are no longer performed by the Herc, due to the extreme hazard. They were one of the most demanding tactical skills the Herc crew performed.
CF Photo


Here are some other unrealible and biased sources :

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=18510.30
http://www.dcds.forces.gc.ca/jointDoc/d ... sary_e.pdf
http://www.jcaa.us/AA_Conference_2000/Th-13.pdf

No LAPES with the CC-130s and there will ne none with the tactical C-17 either.
Maybe you didn't read the glossary that you provided the link to. It stated that LAPES is "No longer practiced by the CF in peacetime" As far as the photo caption, we all know that PA officers never, ever, ever dumb anything down for public consumption. Given that the specific glossary reference you so kindly provided specifically stated that the CF's exclusion of LAPES operations was a peacetime only decision, did you consider that perhaps the caption had been shortened and simplified in order to make formatting the website a little easier?

It would seem to me that the decision was made that this particular operation posed a risk that was not acceptable under peacetime conditions...and the decision not to do so anymore was made with a caveat in it so that the practice could be dusted off and used again in time of war. Perhaps some airframes that have not been in service for 30 to 40,000 hours would stand up a little better to the rigours of LAPES.

There are lots of things that the CF doesn't do in peace time. Drop-firing their 60mm mortars (as opposed to using the trigger). Firing standard 40mm grenades from the M203 for practice. Calling in arty "danger-close". Training for these particular operations is still part of the CF's doctrine, we simply do not incorporate the most dangerous aspects into our peacetime training.

That doesn't mean that these things are not going to be done when Canadian lives are at risk. Once again, your complete lack of knowledge of military realities has led you to an argument that simply doesn't hold water.
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yultoto
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Post by yultoto »

WJflyer wrote:Yet the CF has studied the C-17 for over a decade and came to the conclusion that when push comes to shove, C-17 is the best option there is for us.
Produce one document dated before the June 6th 2006 SOR that proves DND interest in the C-17.
WJflyer wrote:The UK purchased the C-17 Globemaster III in 2000 (BEFORE BUSH GOT ELECTED, NOTE THIS!) with the Short-Term Strategic Airlift (STSA) competition. The UK canceled the competition in late 1999 and acquired the C-17 after realizing that C-17 was the only aircraft available on the market that met the UK's needs. The purchase of the C-17 was to fill in the gap created by the wait for the Airbus A400M. The UK has been delighted with the service and capabilities of the C-17 in RAF service, and have purchased (not leased) an additional example, with the possibility of more to follow, and have stated that at the end of the lease for the existing C-17's, they will elect to purchase.
Wrong! The UK LEASED 4 C-17s in 2000 as a stop gap measure while waiting for the A400. The following year they went to war in Afghanistan and in 2003 in Iraq, doubling the planned use they made of the C-17 from 750 hours a year in the Lease, to 1500 hours a year. If you leased a Toyota and had a 4 year, 96,000 km contract with a 10 cent a kilometer penalty for going over and after 2 years you had already done 100,000km and faced paying an extra 10,000$ on top of your lease, what would you do? Pay the 10,000$ and return the car or buy the car? Yes they are delighted with the aircraft because it is a fantastic aircraft, and they took another because they are fighting a war on two fronts and running their C-17s into the ground, having to regularly charter Antonovs to help them out
WJflyer wrote:Australia purchased the C-17 in 2005 due to their acknowledgment that chartered airlift was no longer acceptable for the jobs the Australian Defence Forces were undertaking around the world; the same situation that is facing Canada.
Everywhere I looked, the Australian order was on March 2006. For example:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/200 ... /index.php

WJflyer wrote:Sweden is also talking about buying the C-17 after they identified a need for a strategic airlift capability for use with the EU Nordic Battlegroup in 2006. Sweden is not a nation that you normally associate with the US on many issues.
Dont hold your breath for that one. There is C-17 talk in Sweden but any orders are nothing but wishful thinking on Boeing's part for the time being. However if and when they do order, I agree with you that their order will be legit and not a result of any arm twisting. For now lets wait and see, and remember, breathe......
WJflyer wrote:Germany is also talking C-17 as well. The Germans have been watching the performance of the C-17 in USAF and RAF service, as the government realized a need for its own organic strategic transport capability to be able to respond to disasters in a timely manner than it was able to during the 2004 Tsunami crisis. During the tsunami relief effort, Germany tried to acquire transport through its usual method of leasing Antonov airlifters via private companies, but found to its dismay that there were no available aircraft for a timely response.
http://www.expatica.com/actual/article. ... y_id=15827
That link is dated January 2005! Go ahead and hold your breath this time, they will order some, tonight. They started SALIS because of that.
WJflyer wrote:..... Canadian citizens stranded in a disaster zone, and we can't get to them fast enough.
You mean to save "so-called Canadian" civilians who were forced to flee by the tens of thousands the bombs let loose in a measured and proportionate reaction to a vicious attack on our friend? I thought that was all done by civilian contracted ships? Did we have CC-150s on the ground in Beirut? No it requires a tactical aircraft for such a mission, like the C-17s. Perhaps we had a few CC-130 Hercules in Beirut evacuating the poor refugees then? No? They had more important missions elsewhere. But I am certain that if we had C-17s at the time, they would have gone in to save the Canadians.
WJflyer wrote:Canada has been severely criticized in the past by our allies in NATO for the neglect of our military and the lack of capability the CF had in the 1980's-1990's. When our forces were deployed in Germany during the Cold War, we got relegated to second-line duties even though we sent our best divisions over. Do you want us to return to this situation, that when we deploy overseas in support of NATO and UN missions, that we get relegated to second line duties because our men do not have the equipment to do their jobs properly? I sure hope not.
There I agree. We just dont agree on where the priorities are in procurement. For example, say you were the boss and given the choice: 40 state of the art helicopter gunships and 40 Medium helicopters for the Forces (Puma or Blackhawk etc) or 4 C-17s (same price) Which would you chose?
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Last edited by yultoto on Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:08 pm, edited 7 times in total.
yultoto
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Post by yultoto »

mellow_pilot wrote:
yultoto wrote:What worries me is that we are purchasing things with taxpayers money for reasons that are politically motivated, ie please people in Washington.
I suppose you're ok with buying sub-standard equipment to please people in Quebec though, aren't you? Cause that's basically what you're arguing for. For a long time, crap equipment has been given to the forces because politicians want to make Quebec businesses happy. Your precious 'democratic' input is what caused political interference in the process, not the uncontested purchase of the proper equipment for the job. So in effect you're arguing against yourself.

Need a non-aviation example? How about Grenades that don't explode? Jeeps with no heaters?
There you are putting words in my mouth. Where did I write anything that remotely ressembles that?
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yultoto
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Post by yultoto »

w squared wrote: Maybe you didn't read the glossary that you provided the link to. It stated that LAPES is "No longer practiced by the CF in peacetime" As far as the photo caption, we all know that PA officers never, ever, ever dumb anything down for public consumption. Given that the specific glossary reference you so kindly provided specifically stated that the CF's exclusion of LAPES operations was a peacetime only decision, did you consider that perhaps the caption had been shortened and simplified in order to make formatting the website a little easier?
I gave not one, not two not three, but four references, 3 of which are on DND websites, and all of which state that LAPES is no longer done and has not been done by the CF in over 10 years. And you argue?
A colleague of mine, ex CC-130 pilot , now a civilian, confirmed it to me some days ago. To do LAPES in wartime, one has to train for it. No LAPES training as been done with CF aircraft in years.

Just provide a proof that LAPES was done in Afghanistan this year or drop the issue please.
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Post by WJflyer »

Produce one document dated before the June 6th 2006 SOR that proves DND interest in the C-17.
Easy: look up FSA (Future Strategic Airlift)
Document dated April 29th 2004:
http://wps.cfc.forces.gc.ca/papers/csc/ ... parker.pdf
Thirdly, there is no guarantee that commercial An-124s will be available when required. To address this potential problem, the Minister of National Defence, John McCallaum, signed a letter of intent on 13 June 2002 with eleven other NATO countries to from a pool of leased An-124s. The idea would be for partner countries to draw from this common pool as required and thus share the cost burden associated with guaranteed access. Unfortunately, Canada’s Department of National Defence’s (DND) own analysis of this concept indicates that the costs associated with guaranteeing access to the required capability is prohibitive. Based upon the CF’s anticipated strategic airlift requirement as identified in the Future Strategic Airlift Statement of Requirements (FSA SOR), the CF “would need guaranteed access to two An-124s within 48 hours, with two more within seven days for a total of 1 000 flying hours per year.” The life cycle cost of this arrangement is forecasted to be comparable to the purchase of six C-17 or 12 A400M aircraft, both of which would meet the FSA SOR.

Finally, the issue raised by the above quote highlights the risk of political interference inherent in becoming dependent upon commercial strategic airlift. Although difficult to quantify, there exists the real possibility that either Russia or the Ukraine could limit Canada’s access to commercial strategic airlift. The United Kingdom recently experienced such interference when the French commercial carrier Corsair was prevented by the French Government from moving British troops into Iraq. There are any number of scenarios that could cause political interference, with the most likely being that Canada’s need for commercial lift is for a mission that is contrary to the Russian’s or Ukrainian’s national interest. Although our countries currently enjoy cordial relations, Russia and the Ukraine have distinct national interests that are not shared by Canada or other NATO countries. To become totally dependent upon the commercial assets of a non NATO member to deploy and sustain a CF mission posses a potentially unacceptable risk.

Due to the CF’s small fleet of Polaris and ageing fleet of Hercules aircraft, it has unfortunately become dependent upon commercial strategic airlift. Although currently meeting the CF’s needs, a dependence upon commercial strategic airlift posses many risks for the CF including cost, safety, availability and the potential for political interference. Given that these risk factors are outside of the CF’s control, there exists the real potential that commercial means may not be available when needed. This has the potential to prevent the CF from either deploying as desired or being able to deploy at all. The CF’s dependence and the risks associated with commercial airlift are well understood by NDHQ planners and it is foreseen that this situation will exist for at least the next ten years as the CF is unlikely before then to take delivery of a Hercules replacement.

The Future Strategic Airlift Project (FSA)
In an effort to address the problems associated with the ageing Hercules fleet and the lack of a true organic strategic airlift capability, the FSA project proposed to obtain either through lease agreements, or outright ownership a fleet (4 to 6 aircraft) of American made C-17 Globemaster IIIs. The C-17 is currently the world’s most capable military strategic airlift platform. It is capable of carrying outsized cargo, including every vehicle in the CF’s inventory, and has an advertised payload of almost 77 tonnes. This makes it capable of transporting three of the Army’s LAV III vehicles in a single lift. It is ramp loaded, capable of operating from austere runways and has almost unlimited range with air-to-air refuelling. Unfortunately, the C-17 is an extremely expensive aircraft with a unit price of $600 million and the forecasted project cost of owning four was approximately $3.5 billion. The option of purchasing them and then leasing them back to the United States to offset the cost was rejected after issues surrounding basing, aircraft insignia and the potential for conflicting national interests could not be satisfactorily resolved.

The project was halted in October of 2003 when the Minister of National Defence stated:
In terms of demonstrating responsible management, I have made it crystal clear that Canada will not be unilaterally purchasing strategic airlift for the Canadian Forces. Only two NATO nations, the US and the UK have this capability. For a country of Canada’s size, it is simply not an effective use of resources. Over the past six fiscal years, Canada has spent approximately $107 million in strategic airlift, an average of $18 million per year. This is but a mere fraction of the annual interest on the cost of our own strategic airlift – let alone the capital cost [$3.5 billion].
Article dated August 2005:
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/boo ... icLift.pdf

Also, make an Access to Information Request for "Future Strategic Airlift Study and all Annexes" from the DND. Someone else made a request for this in request A-2001-00278. The Access to Information Request Document is here:
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/dwnld/350-57_e.pdf
Federal Government Institution: Department of National Defence
Provide details regarding the information being sought: Future Strategic Airlift Study
Method of access preferred: Receive copies of originals
Name of applicant: You
Your Address
This request for access to information under the Access to Information Act is being made by: a Canadian citizen, permanent resident oranother individual present in Canada, or
Your Signature

Also attach a $5.00 money order or cheque payable to the Receiver General of Canada. Further charges may apply.
Everywhere I looked, the Australian order was on March 2006. For example:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/200 ... /index.php
The Aussies were talking C-17 a year before that. Check Australian government records. They announced the contract March 2006, but they were starting to negotiate the contract in late 2005.

Dont hold your breath for that one. The ... athe......

The talking was done by politicians on both side of the political spectrum. The Swedish Defense Materiel Administration put up a notice (that was later taken down) that they were interested in a oversized airlifter.

That link is dated January 2005! Go ahe ... e of that.
Still valid. SALIS is not guaranteed access for Germany. They have to wait in line if they want access to those AN-124's. Not what the Germans want, but an improvement over the situation before.
You mean to save "so-called Canadian" civilians who were forced to flee by the tens of thousands the bombs let loose in a measured and proportionate reaction to a vicious attack on our friend? I thought that was all done by civilian contracted ships? Did we have CC-150s on the ground in Beirut? No it requires a tactical aircraft for such a mission, like the C-17s. Perhaps we had a few CC-130 Hercules in Beirut evacuating the poor refugees then No?
PM Harper flew some of those refugees out on the government CC-150 Polaris when he made a diversion to Cyprus. And if you didn't know, the Israeli's bombed Beirut's airport so no aircraft could land or take off. :roll:
There I agree. We just dont agree on where the priorities are in procurement. For example, say you were the boss and given the choice: 40 state of the art helicopter guships and 40 Medium helicopters for the Forces (Puma or Blackhawk etc) or 4 C-17s (same price) Which would you chose?
C-17's. Without them, you will be still sitting at home. Having helicopters is great, but if you can't get them there dependably, what's the point?
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Post by yultoto »

"The project was halted in October of 2003 when the Minister of National Defence stated:
In terms of demonstrating responsible management, I have made it crystal clear that Canada will not be unilaterally purchasing strategic airlift for the Canadian Forces. Only two NATO nations, the US and the UK have this capability. For a country of Canada’s size, it is simply not an effective use of resources. Over the past six fiscal years, Canada has spent approximately $107 million in strategic airlift, an average of $18 million per year. This is but a mere fraction of the annual interest on the cost of our own strategic airlift – let alone the capital cost [$3.5 billion]."


Now its four billion for 4 aircraft instead of 6. Very interesting indeed. We were spending 18 million a year on strategic airlift, and now we are going to spend between 200 and 250 million a year. But you've made your point, some people in DND wanted the C-17 in 2003. I looked for that document and could no longer find it on line, although many authors mentionned it. I will get a copy, thank you.
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Post by yultoto »

WJflyer wrote:[
PM Harper flew some of those refugees out on the government CC-150 Polaris when he made a diversion to Cyprus. And if you didn't know, the Israeli's bombed Beirut's airport so no aircraft could land or take off. :roll:
I'll have to find you some pictures then , since you will not believe that several military aircraft (but none Canadian) landed in Beirut while the conflict was going on (Jordan, Portugal and France I think were among them)
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Post by WJflyer »

yultoto wrote:
WJflyer wrote:[
PM Harper flew some of those refugees out on the government CC-150 Polaris when he made a diversion to Cyprus. And if you didn't know, the Israeli's bombed Beirut's airport so no aircraft could land or take off. :roll:
I'll have to find you some pictures then , since you will not believe that several military aircraft (but none Canadian) landed in Beirut while the conflict was going on (Jordan, Portugal and France I think were among them)
The aircraft that could fly in realistically under those conditions are fully military type aircraft; C-130's, C-17's, etc. CC-150 Polaris is a civilian Airbus A310 in military markings. CF C-130's are overstretched in deployments around the world, and through the horrible condition CF Herc's are in.

Edit: For $170 million dollars for 4 C-17's with a life of at least 20 years of service, with assured, priority access to strategic lift, 18 spare engines, defensive suites, and 20 night vision goggles, Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program software equipment, mission planning system and software, COMSEC equipment, spare and repair parts, Personnel Life Support equipment, flares, supply support, training equipment and support, publications and technical data, U.S. Government and contractor technical assistance, and other related elements of logistics support is a good deal. Most of the costs, is in the electronics and in the engines, that's the big inflater of the costs of the aircraft. Now, if only we can replace the CP-140 Aurora's...
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Post by yultoto »

WJflyer wrote: Edit: For $170 million dollars for 4 C-17's with a life of at least 20 years of service, with assured, priority access to strategic lift, 18 spare engines, defensive suites, and 20 night vision goggles, Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program software equipment, mission planning system and software, COMSEC equipment, spare and repair parts, Personnel Life Support equipment, flares, supply support, training equipment and support, publications and technical data, U.S. Government and contractor technical assistance, and other related elements of logistics support is a good deal. Most of the costs, is in the electronics and in the engines, that's the big inflater of the costs of the aircraft. Now, if only we can replace the CP-140 Aurora's...
We obviously didn't go to the same grade school, we don't count the same way
The contract for 4 Boeing C-17s which covers all you mentionned here and major maintenance and certains parts is 4 BILLION dollars over 20 years.
Divide that by 20 years and it comes out to:
200 millions dollars a year for the fleet, or
50 million dollars per year per aircraft, or again,
4,166 millions dollars per month per aircraft.

And that does not include pilots and mechanics salaries and travel expenses, fuel and oil, landing and navigation fees, hangar fee, de-icing fees, unscheduled maintenance expenses, etc etc.

(I skipped the insurance, because there will be none)
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Post by yultoto »

WJflyer wrote:
Produce one document dated before the June 6th 2006 SOR that proves DND interest in the C-17.
Easy: look up FSA (Future Strategic Airlift)
Document dated April 29th 2004:
http://wps.cfc.forces.gc.ca/papers/csc/ ... parker.pdf
Very interesting document. I have a few comments to make on it.

First of all, like all literature ever produced by the DND, Pro Strategic Airlift Think Tanks, and the Press articles that get their sources from these same people, the author compares the C-17 to the Antonov 124 and to the yet to fly Airbus A-400. It just blows my mind that all these authors seem to suffer from a bizare form of selective and temporary amnesia when it comes to comparing the C-17 to the Ilyushin 76. The IL-76 is never mentionned in this report, only the Antonov. He does mention CF deployments that were done with IL-76s, like Haiti, but does not mention the Ilyushin. He uses AN-124 arguments only to explain and justify all his arguments.
How can DND always think of the IL-76 when its time for leasing aircraft, as the many pictures of IL-76s on the ground in Trenton and Edmonton can attest, but fail to ever think of it when comparing the C-17 to the aircraft we most commonly lease? The comparaisons are ALWAYS with and only with the Antonov 124.

He then adds "There are currently 22 AN-124 in commercial service (there are now 25, since three new ones were delivered since this report was written) based in either Russia or the Ukraine " and that they are 15 years old on average (Our CF-18s are how old now? Over 20 years)

He fails to mention that there are over 250 Ilyushin 76s in commercial service in the World and that is it the main Strategic aircraft of Russia's Air Force which also has several hundred of the type in service.

This document, written in 2004, states that the CF spent 77$ million in commercial airlift since 1997, and another 37$ million for using the US's strategic ressources. That comes out to 114 million dollars in seven years, so 16 million a year, or probably 18 million to quote Minister McCallum since I dont have the exact dates associated with these figures.
The author begins that paragraph by stating that the leasing AN-124s for 13,300 to 16,000$ an hour is expensive (Today with increased demand and the rise of fuel, it is around 23,000$ an hour). However, that is cheap, when you compare it with the 40,000$ an hour that it is going to cost DND to fly C-17s. Maybe cost is irrelevant, as posters seem to think, and that the C-17 is required regardless of cost, but claiming that renting AN-124s for 16,000$ an hour is certainly not an argument in favor of the C-17.

He states that CF requirements in Airlift would require at least 1000 hours of AN-124s per year. The author then adds that "the life cycle cost of this arrangement is forecasted to be comparable to the purchase of 6 C-17s or 12 A400M". He must have gone to the same grade school as WJflyer because I was unable to come up with such numbers.
I attempted to multiply 16,000$ by 1000 hours by 20 years and only came up with 320 million, well short of the 3.5 Billion the FSA project claimed the C-17s were to cost back then. And by the way, the 320 million included crew, maintenance and fuel, while the 3.5 Billion did not, like the 4 Billion do not today.

He then adds:
"The problem with obtaining C-17s for the CF is that they are highly suitable for only one aspect of the reach equation. Although they are eminently suitable to support deployment and redeployments, their capacity and operating costs makes them ill suited to carry out the sustainment acpect of most missions. The costs associated with obtaining a fleet of C-17s is unrealistic given the budgetary realities of the CF"

Then in a footnote he adds "The forecast project cost of purchasing four to six aircraft for 3.5 billion dollars is optomistic given the UK's experience. The UK entered into a seven year lease of four C-17s for 1.8$ Billion. Maintenance and operating costs were not included in the lease agreement and were covered under a number of smaller contracts"
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Post by w squared »

yultoto wrote:
w squared wrote: Maybe you didn't read the glossary that you provided the link to. It stated that LAPES is "No longer practiced by the CF in peacetime" As far as the photo caption, we all know that PA officers never, ever, ever dumb anything down for public consumption. Given that the specific glossary reference you so kindly provided specifically stated that the CF's exclusion of LAPES operations was a peacetime only decision, did you consider that perhaps the caption had been shortened and simplified in order to make formatting the website a little easier?
I gave not one, not two not three, but four references, 3 of which are on DND websites, and all of which state that LAPES is no longer done and has not been done by the CF in over 10 years. And you argue?
A colleague of mine, ex CC-130 pilot , now a civilian, confirmed it to me some days ago. To do LAPES in wartime, one has to train for it. No LAPES training as been done with CF aircraft in years.

Just provide a proof that LAPES was done in Afghanistan this year or drop the issue please.
My point was not ever that LAPES has been done this year in Afghanistan...it was simply that the CF would not be likely to deliberately and permanently turn their back on a capability because of the decision that it was too risky to practice in peacetime.

As far as providing four references, did you actually bother to READ them? Or read my response? As I said, because the CF has decided not to practice something in peacetime because of the risk, doesn't mean that they've decided that it will not happen in wartime. I won't quote other examples of this, since you've obviously neglected to read my previous examples.

As far as needing training before doing a particular operation, how do you think that LAPES was first developed?
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Post by EI-EIO »

yultoto - I would make a distinction between what the CF want and what the party in govt. want.

Now, most of the time if the party in govt wants to buy something (or not buy something) CF has to take it on regardless of its wants. There is no way however that the botched Liberal helicopter replacement which meant paying $500m for no choppers was something the CF wanted. Similarly, the arctic patrol ships the Tories wanted don't seem to be causing the celebration they expected in the Forces.

Accordingly I don't regard the statements of John McCallum or any minister as reflective of what the CF want or need. I trust officers not to lie, that's about it.

The promotion of a Canadian aerospace industry is a priority for successive governments. Personally unlike some I don't care which province gets which % but industrial offset is a modern reality in maintaining some little financial return for the cost of running a military.

Regardless of your opinion of the US administration, I trust Lockheed and Boeing to continue supplying spares. I don't have that level of trust in former Soviet states. If a diplomatic incident such as a spy network caused the halting of spares or tech support for the Ilyushins, they would be too expensive even at half the price you think they'll cost.
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Post by WJflyer »

First of all, like all literature ever produced by the DND, Pro Strategic Airlift Think Tanks, and the Press articles that get their sources from these same people, the author compares the C-17 to the Antonov 124 and to the yet to fly Airbus A-400. It just blows my mind that all these authors seem to suffer from a bizare form of selective and temporary amnesia when it comes to comparing the C-17 to the Ilyushin 76. The IL-76 is never mentionned in this report, only the Antonov. He does mention CF deployments that were done with IL-76s, like Haiti, but does not mention the Ilyushin. He uses AN-124 arguments only to explain and justify all his arguments.
How can DND always think of the IL-76 when its time for leasing aircraft, as the many pictures of IL-76s on the ground in Trenton and Edmonton can attest, but fail to ever think of it when comparing the C-17 to the aircraft we most commonly lease? The comparaisons are ALWAYS with and only with the Antonov 124.

He then adds "There are currently 22 AN-124 in commercial service (there are now 25, since three new ones were delivered since this report was written) based in either Russia or the Ukraine " and that they are 15 years old on average (Our CF-18s are how old now? Over 20 years)

He fails to mention that there are over 250 Ilyushin 76s in commercial service in the World and that is it the main Strategic aircraft of Russia's Air Force which also has several hundred of the type in service.
The IL-76 does not fit the biggest of CF land forces equipment: the Leopard tank. The IL-76's is simply not wide enough (IL-76's cargo hold dimensions are 18m/25m L x 3.25m W x 3.4m H while A400M's cargo hold is 17.71m L x 3.85m W x 4.0m H, and the Leopard C2 tank's width is 3.37m.) Sure, it may be able to lift the weight of a Leopard tank, but the cargo hold dimensions aren't big enough to fit one in. We have to exclude the IL-76 from carrying the biggest of CF equipment just because of this issue. It's good for carrying smaller stuff, like LAV's and our trucks, but a tank? Forget it.

The AN-124 is no longer in production; any current examples coming onto the market were either ex-military ones retired by the Russian Air Force, or frames that were built in the 1980's that were completed recently. In 20 years, those airframes will also retire slowly, reducing supply of out-sized heavy lift, as demand increases, as Volga-Dnepr has stated that the demand for out-sized cargo is increasing by 8-10% a year and at least 50 new An-124s will be required by 2030, some of them to replace older frames. Antonov, the maker of the AN-124, is reluctant in re-starting production because the start up costs are extremely high as the aircraft will have to be re-designed from scratch to be produced.

Costs are increasing for us to lease those Antonov's. The thing is that everyone wants these birds to carry their out-sized products and equipment, from the military to corporate businesses. Costs per hour to lease those Antonov's have virtually doubled in the past few years due to the increase in demand. For example chartering two AN-124's to transport DART's equipment in five flights to Sri Lanka cost approximately $5.3-million Canadian. CF demand for strategic lift is also on the increase, we are chartering more of these Antonov and Ilyushin birds than ever before to sustain our demands overseas. This is not sustainable. The CF needs its own organic strategic lift capabilities to ensure immediate access to strategic lift to sustain the tempo of operations overseas.
He fails to mention that there are over 250 Ilyushin 76s in commercial service in the World and that is it the main Strategic aircraft of Russia's Air Force which also has several hundred of the type in service.
The CF is looking for out-sized cargo airlift capability. The Russians don't need this capability, as they can transport all of their larger cargo by rail or road or by ship. As I stated before, we have to exclude the IL-76 because it can't fit the biggest of CF equipment, the Leopard tank. With the increasing usefulness of the Leopard tank in CF service, there is talk and rumor that the CF is going to look at purchasing new tanks in the near future.
We obviously didn't go to the same grade school, we don't count the same way
The contract for 4 Boeing C-17s which covers all you mentionned here and major maintenance and certains parts is 4 BILLION dollars over 20 years.
Divide that by 20 years and it comes out to:
200 millions dollars a year for the fleet, or
50 million dollars per year per aircraft, or again,
4,166 millions dollars per month per aircraft.

And that does not include pilots and mechanics salaries and travel expenses, fuel and oil, landing and navigation fees, hangar fee, de-icing fees, unscheduled maintenance expenses, etc etc.

(I skipped the insurance, because there will be none)
Government has budgeted $1.8 billion for acquisition and $1.6 billion for 20 years of support of four strategic airlifters, and all associated hardware and purchases (engines, electronics, night vision goggles, tools, manuals, simulators, etc). That is $3.2 billion dollars CANADIAN over 20 years (at least) of service. $3.2 billion divided by 20 years = $160 million a year.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... leet+.html

I personally did not like the Russians when they visited to do their demo. Them claiming we use Russian ammo and arms is absolutely ludicrous. All ammo the CF uses is either from Canadian stocks or from NATO ally stocks, and when they were pressed to explain the arms, they looked uncomfortable and declined to answer.
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Post by yultoto »

w squared wrote: My point was not ever that LAPES has been done this year in Afghanistan...it was simply that the CF would not be likely to deliberately and permanently turn their back on a capability because of the decision that it was too risky to practice in peacetime.
What do you want me to say? That the CF can still retrain, using their old tech manuals and videos, and maybe with the help of US Air Force people, who are current in LAPES, re-qualify themselves in LAPES since we seem to be in a war today? I would agree. Have some exchange CF pilots performed LAPES in US Air Force aircraft lately? Possible
Should we be doing it? I think so.
Could our troops in Afghanistan use that capability right now if we had it? Probably.
Have we done it? I would like that but not that I've heard.
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Post by WJflyer »

This year has been an extremely good year for procurement and replacement for the CF. This year, we are borrowing the USS Gunston from the Americans for a short bit to test the new SCTF (Standing Contingency Task Force) concept, which will require immediate, on demand strategic sealift, with possible airlift. The USN has even indicated to us that they may sell one of their LPD 4 Austin class or LSD-36 Anchorage class ships to us until we build our amphibious warfare ships.
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Post by w squared »

yultoto wrote:
w squared wrote: My point was not ever that LAPES has been done this year in Afghanistan...it was simply that the CF would not be likely to deliberately and permanently turn their back on a capability because of the decision that it was too risky to practice in peacetime.
What do you want me to say? That the CF can still retrain, using their old tech manuals and videos, and maybe with the help of US Air Force people, who are current in LAPES, re-qualify themselves in LAPES since we seem to be in a war today? I would agree. Have some exchange CF pilots performed LAPES in US Air Force aircraft lately? Possible
Should we be doing it? I think so.
Could our troops in Afghanistan use that capability right now if we had it? Probably.
Have we done it? I would like that but not that I've heard.
The whole reason that LAPES came up was my statement that one of the advantages of using the C-17 as our strategic airlifter was that it retained far better short field/tactical delivery properties than anything else capable of hauling that much payload. LAPES is not really necessary in the current situation in Afghanistan, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how it might be useful in the not-too-distant future. In order to successfully use LAPES, the delivery aircraft needs to have the qualities that contribute to short field performance.

The overall point that I was trying to get at was that our solution to the strategic airlift question needs to incorporate delivering large loads into less-than-ideal airfields...and the C-17 simply does a better job than it's competitors at that.
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Post by yultoto »

WJflyer wrote: The IL-76 does not fit the biggest of CF land forces equipment: the Leopard tank. The IL-76's is simply not wide enough (IL-76's cargo hold dimensions are 18m/25m L x 3.25m W x 3.4m H while A400M's cargo hold is 17.71m L x 3.85m W x 4.0m H, and the Leopard C2 tank's width is 3.37m.) Sure, it may be able to lift the weight of a Leopard tank, but the cargo hold dimensions aren't big enough to fit one in. We have to exclude the IL-76 from carrying the biggest of CF equipment just because of this issue. It's good for carrying smaller stuff, like LAV's and our trucks, but a tank? Forget it.
You know what, in your heart you want a certain product and nothing else. It is obvious you never looked at anything else and just assume things about the product you dont want. The normal manner would be to study all and compare, then take decisions.

Image

BTW, the picture is of a T-72 rolling out of a IL-76. I'll let you look up the size and weight of the T-72 and compare that to the Leopard. You really think the Russians stupid enough to manufacture a strategic aircraft that cant' carry their own tanks? The best way to loose a battle and a war is to think that your opponent is stupid.
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Last edited by yultoto on Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by w squared »

Yup...because that's a leopard rolling off that IL-76. Maybe you should work on your AFV recognition, yultoto.
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Post by yultoto »

w squared wrote:Yup...because that's a leopard rolling off that IL-76. Maybe you should work on your AFV recognition, yultoto.
I get it. How silly of me :lol:
You're just acting stupid to crank me aren't you?
I wont fall for it any longer.
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Post by w squared »

Sigh.

As WJFlyer pointed out, the issue with the Leopard fitting into the AN-72 is not weight. It is size.

If you took a minute to look up the specs, you would find that the Leopard is about 40 cm wider than a T-72. As I'm sure is evident from the photo that you so kindly supplied, there is most assuredly NOT 20 cm to spare on either side of that T-72. Let's not even consider what would happen to the uselfulness of the IL-76 in Canadian service if the decision is taken to replace the Leo with a modern MBT (IE surplus Leopard II's from the Germans)

Thank you for emphasizing one of the points that we've been trying to make here. Russian aircraft are sized to haul Russian equipment - that makes perfect sense. Russian tanks are historically smaller than western ones because of a different design philosiphy.

NATO standards exist for a reason. Weapons systems do not exist in a vacum...they are part of a combined arms concept that must work together.

Edited because my eyes crossed at 11:30 last night, causing me to type AN-72 instead of IL-76.
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Last edited by w squared on Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by WJflyer »

yultoto wrote:
w squared wrote:Yup...because that's a leopard rolling off that IL-76. Maybe you should work on your AFV recognition, yultoto.
I get it. How silly of me :lol:
You're just acting stupid to crank me aren't you?
I wont fall for it any longer.
Get yourself a copy of Jane's Tank Recognition Guide. Amazon.ca has a copy here:
http://www.amazon.ca/Janes-Tanks-Recogn ... F8&s=books
What you posted is a T-72 coming off a IL-76. We are talking about Leopard tanks. Leopard tanks are wider than a T-72. As I stated earlier:
The IL-76 does not fit the biggest of CF land forces equipment: the Leopard tank. The IL-76's is simply not wide enough (IL-76's cargo hold dimensions are 18m/25m L x 3.25m W x 3.4m H while A400M's cargo hold is 17.71m L x 3.85m W x 4.0m H, and the Leopard C2 tank's width is 3.37m.) Sure, it may be able to lift the weight of a Leopard tank, but the cargo hold dimensions aren't big enough to fit one in. We have to exclude the IL-76 from carrying the biggest of CF equipment just because of this issue. It's good for carrying smaller stuff, like LAV's and our trucks, but a tank? Forget it.
Leopard tank is is almost 40cm wider than the IL-76's cargo hold. It won't fit.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/English ... uSection=1
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Post by w squared »

HAH! For once, I beat WJflyer to the punch when we're both about to say the same thing. It's nice to see that we both came up with same answer independently though.
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Post by yultoto »

What I posted, as is written under the picture, is a T-72 tank rolling out of an IL-76.

It is not a Leopard, and the Aircraft is not an AN-72.

The T-72 is 3.6 meters wide, anywhere you look, including Janes.

The Leopard is 3.37 wide. So, in the grade school I went to anyway, 3.6 is wider than 3.37, by 23 cm.

By deduction, if a 3.60M wide T-72 can fit into a IL-76, and the width of the Leopard is what you claim is the reason it cannot fit into into an IL-76, we can assume that a 3.37m wide Leopard can fit into an IL76.

I give up with you guys. Next you are going to claim that Russian meters are smaller than Canadian meters. You would not admit the most obvious thing if it went against anything you argue. This is getting ridiculous and I have better use of my time. I'm certain the readers see the light, even if certain people have their heads up their.....

btw w squared, you are to WJflyer what Harper is to Bush. Take that as a compliment.....
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