Ontario Restricting CPL instruction

[xsbank]

Kelowna, doctors have to pay receptionists and run offices with that dosh - it ain't bad but it ain't all gravy.

Clunck, I enjoyed that bit where you said a kid from the country wouldn't mind being "sent to a shithole..."

Any time you mess with a system, either by putting artificial limits to it or capping prices, you fzck it up.

Wage and price controls, rent controls, fuel price controls all distort the marketplace and have unintended consequences. Rent controls mean buildings stop being built or maintained, thus a shortage or none available or run-down crappy housing. Wage controls mean doctors don't go to Ontario ergo a shortage - beating the bushes for foreign-trained doctors who come here and get certified then go to the US.

[Kelowna Pilot]

Any time you mess with a system, either by putting artificial limits to it or capping prices, you fzck it up.

No doubt. Child labor laws have gotten in the way of me owning my own factory here in Kelowna to make shoes. I'd like to employ the local kids to work 14 hours a day for 15 cents an hour. But those commies in Victoria won't let me do it.

Maybe I'll relocate to Alberta... I hear they're more into John Smith over there....

[Stan_Cooper]

I received a reply to my letter from the MTCU by email today!

The pdf he sent was an image type, so I only transcribed the most salient two paragraphs.

Staff at the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities have been working closely with officials from Transport Canada and consulting with flight schools to ensure that our provincial requirements do not interfere with the Government of Canada's regulation of aeronautics. As a result, a number of the requirements for registration and program approval, such as program content, instructor qualifications, admission requirements, and maintenance of student transcripts, will be satisfied by maintaining a valid Flight Training Unit Operator Certificate as issued by Transport Canada.

There are a number of aspects of flight training schools that are neither regulated under the Aeronautics Act, nor touch upon matters integral to the federal power over aeronautics. Under the PCCA, measures including requirements for student contracts, complaint procedures, refund policies, and access to training completions or refunds if a private career college goes out of business will now apply to flight training schools.

[RatherBeFlying]

Like other institutions and organisations providing postsecondary training that leads to employment, flight training schools offering vocational programs, such as commercial pilot or flight instructor, will be required to register as private career colleges as of September 18, 2007. The PCCA ends the previous exemption for flight training schools from registration as private career colleges because the Government of Ontario has determined that all students in vocational programs should have the same consumer protections, regardless of the type of institution they attend.

Thanks to SC for transcribing two paragraphs

Staff at the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities have been working closely with officials from Transport Canada and consulting with flight schools to ensure that our provincial requirements do not interfere with the Government of Canada's regulation of aeronautics. As a result, a number of the requirements for registration and program approval, such as program content, instructor qualifications, admission requirements, and maintenance of student transcripts, will be satisfied by maintaining a valid Flight Training Unit Operator Certificate as issued by Transport Canada.

There are a number of aspects of flight training schools that are neither regulated under the Aeronautics Act, nor touch upon matters integral to the federal power over aeronautics. Under the PCCA, measures including requirements for student contracts, complaint procedures, refund policies, and access to training completions or refunds if a private career college goes out of business will now apply to flight training schools.

With respect to the cost associated with registration as a private career college, based on the current fees charged to the sector, registering a flight training unit with one vocational program would cost about $1,300, rather than the $10,000 cited by Mr. xxxxx. Private career colleges are also required to provide the Ministry with a financial security and to pay premiums into the Training Completion Assurance fund. The amounts of these costs are based on the financial information provided by each career college.

Thank you for writing. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call the Private Institution Branch at 416-314-0500 or 1-800-330-3395.

So I guess we have to multiply the $1,300 per program by two for Commercial and Flight Instructor. So anyway the Minister believes a small FTU would only be stuck for $2,600 to register plus some annual premiums. Are there any single airport FTUs out there who can let me pass on to the Minister what it really costs for enrollment PLUS annual costs? Don't forget the accountants' billings for doing the paperwork.

[C-GGGQ]

I don't see how the provincial government can even do this since FTU's are regulated by TC and the Federal Government

[Tango01]

This whole thing is retarded.

[C-GGGQ]

well i was given two job offers, one in toronto and one in NFLD. Toronto was going to be more cost effective for me but if its gonna screw me sideways in a month.......

[RatherBeFlying]

Well, I was thinking of training for Instructor and while I could squeeze in at my favorite FTU before the 17th, they're going to have to drop Commercial and Instructor training and will shortly have less business; so, who do I get to teach for?

Plus there's going to be a whole bunch of laid off Instructors; so, not much point.

If any FTU has a handle on the real costs to enroll under the PCCA, especially including the paperwork morass, I like to know to feed that back to Minister Bradley who is about to see the manure hit the fan during the provincial election.

[wirez]

If they really are in a state of chaos, do you think this thing will really go forward next week? It seems to me that flight schools have not been fighting it much, in fact it has been difficult to find information. And I wouldn't know as much as I do if it weren't for this forum.

Toronto Airways has already announced to their students that the fees related to the PCCA are coming in Sept. 18.

If a lot of flight schools opposed it, I think they should have done more to keep the average person informed. Nothing big, even a page on their website would have sufficed.

[Kelowna Pilot]

I'm sorry, Clunk. Speaking as someone who flies only for fun and sees things perhaps in a more detached, less emotional way, you're being pushed out the door and it's quite deliberate.

Go read the Human Resources Study of Pilots or whatever ATAC calls it... the blue print for how the major players want flight training at the commercial level to be shaped in the future is spelled out in that document, although a lot of it is obfuscated in a writing style that is well over the head of your average pilot.

For better or for worse, there is no place for the 'little guy' in their vision of the flight training for the future.

I'd sell your business if you still can and go retire on the beach somewhere.

[Cat Driver]

Hi Clunk, I will be back in Kanada the land of tyrants masquerading as government officials next week.

I have had to change my travel plans with my motorhome this fall due to this job I've taken on here in Greece, but will call you on the phone when I get back home.

As to this:

Jim Dow at TC who did even less,

Here, please allow me to express my feelings about Jim Dow because I can.

Having dealt with him in the past I would not piss down his throat if his guts were on fire.

[Bushav8er]

Forgive me, I found this late. The title of the post had me thinking it was about something else...that is until "Ontario Flying Schools Yell Mayday".

1) There is an election soon...vote against the 'ruling' party (more reasons then just this subject to do so),

2) Does a Provincial Govt have a legal right to tread on Federal jurisdiction? That is, can they actually 'audit and inspect' in Federal terrain? This subject is better suited to something like the Ministry of Labour based on the 'concerns' the Govt states.

3) Aside from the obvious cash grab, this would force students into colleges (or bigger schools) which is again a 'boost for enrollment' and could likely be more costly to students then the small FTU route.

Questions:

1) Is there a 'form' letter that we can email to members of all Parties - best to bitch to all with an election coming and
2) is there an online partition started somewhere that we can sign?
3) Should we not get AOPA involved too? They seem to keep an eye up north because sometimes 'ideas' flow south.
4) What is the latest on this matter?

damn! and I was thinking of getting my Instructors Rating this Fall and pass along some of my 6000+ hrs experience - EI to pay as there seems to be a high demand for (low paid) instructors - maybe truck driver school instead, pays better

[Ronner]

The link to the article online. http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/fina ... b4&k=92887 (It has its own thread but belongs here 2)

[2R]

This is painfull to watch

What are the views of the Candidates in the next election on this issue ???

Any lists made up yet ???

[Johnny]

Today, in Thunder Bay, Ontario PC Leader John Tory said the following with respect to the flight training issue:

And he’s still at it. Just last week, Dalton McGuinty implemented another decision that will have a devastating effect on flight schools and smaller airports in Northern Ontario. His government has decided to regulate flying schools, which are already regulated under Transport Canada, under the Private Career Colleges Act.

The new regulation will force flight centres to pay thousands of dollars in registration and annual fees, and to contribute to the Training and Completion Assurance Fund, which was established to reimburse students when a private college or industry collapses.

There are 64 flight schools in Ontario. They employ more than a thousand people. Already, six have closed because of the additional costs of this regulation. There are estimates that another 15 will not be able to continue vocational flight training. This will cost the North even more jobs.

He was in Thunder Bay addressing issues that are important to Northern Ontario, including the forest industry, diamond mining, over-taxation, and loss of jobs.

He plans to remove the disputed oversight if elected.


John Tory, Jr

[wirez]

Today, in Thunder Bay, Ontario PC Leader John Tory said the following with respect to the flight training issue:

And he’s still at it. Just last week, Dalton McGuinty implemented another decision that will have a devastating effect on flight schools and smaller airports in Northern Ontario. His government has decided to regulate flying schools, which are already regulated under Transport Canada, under the Private Career Colleges Act.

The new regulation will force flight centres to pay thousands of dollars in registration and annual fees, and to contribute to the Training and Completion Assurance Fund, which was established to reimburse students when a private college or industry collapses.

There are 64 flight schools in Ontario. They employ more than a thousand people. Already, six have closed because of the additional costs of this regulation. There are estimates that another 15 will not be able to continue vocational flight training. This will cost the North even more jobs.

He was in Thunder Bay addressing issues that are important to Northern Ontario, including the forest industry, diamond mining, over-taxation, and loss of jobs.

He plans to remove the disputed oversight if elected.


John Tory, Jr

Do you know where I can find something to back that up?

[Johnny]

Today, in Thunder Bay, Ontario PC Leader John Tory said the following with respect to the flight training issue:

And he’s still at it. Just last week, Dalton McGuinty implemented another decision that will have a devastating effect on flight schools and smaller airports in Northern Ontario. His government has decided to regulate flying schools, which are already regulated under Transport Canada, under the Private Career Colleges Act.

The new regulation will force flight centres to pay thousands of dollars in registration and annual fees, and to contribute to the Training and Completion Assurance Fund, which was established to reimburse students when a private college or industry collapses.

There are 64 flight schools in Ontario. They employ more than a thousand people. Already, six have closed because of the additional costs of this regulation. There are estimates that another 15 will not be able to continue vocational flight training. This will cost the North even more jobs.

He was in Thunder Bay addressing issues that are important to Northern Ontario, including the forest industry, diamond mining, over-taxation, and loss of jobs.

He plans to remove the disputed oversight if elected.


John Tory, Jr

Do you know where I can find something to back that up?

Sorry, I can't think of anywhere these particular quotes were published. He gave me his speech notes from Thunder Bay, September 29, 2007.

I give you my word - I've been speaking with him about this issue for a few months...

John

[NStephen]

Questions:

1) Is there a 'form' letter that we can email to members of all Parties - best to bitch to all with an election coming and
2) is there an online partition started somewhere that we can sign?
3) Should we not get AOPA involved too? They seem to keep an eye up north because sometimes 'ideas' flow south.
4) What is the latest on this matter?

Well, I'm jumping into this conversation a bit late but here are some updates.

1)There isn't a form letter that we can email to the governement, HOWEVER, I will see if I can type one up and post it for students, instructors, and anyone interested to print sign and send. Although, it is MUCH more effective if people us their own colourful vocabulary when writting these letters. I'll see about posting all the pertinent details online asap though.

2) Online partition don't legally mean a thing. In order for a petition to legally have any impact they must have the persons name, address phone number and signature on them. But we could look at distributing one to every flight school that is member of the fledgling OFTP (Ontario Flight Training Providers, founded after this mess with the Ontario Government started)

3) It could be difficult to get AOPA involved. COPA, Canada's premier Aviation Organization has turned their backs on flying schools and refuses to help us. They believe it isn't their mandate, nor is it their problem. Flight Schools are commercial entities. But how many instructors have losts their jobs, how many pilots and student have been stranded with nowhere else to go. (FYI, as of Friday, 5 October 2007, seven flight schools have closed their doors due to this act, another 15 are rumoured to be strongly considering it. Ontario has approximatly 65 flight schools, representing approximately 33% of the Flying Schools in Canada)

4) The Ontario Government, despite the cries of the Industry is pushing ahead with the program. Transport Canada, although unimpressed with the act, is allowing them to move forward since it is designed to "Protect the Student". And unfortunately, the estimate of 10 000$ is a little off. The school that I work for needs to pay 30 000$ and the students must each pay 1 720$ (on top of the 30-50 000$ in Flight Training) to register into the PCC. Some flight schools are paying more, some moderately less. One helicopter company needs to pay 1.5 million to register and others are likely just as high. (This is why the Helicopter Industry was the first to throw all its weight behind the OFTP in support of its fighting this legislation.)

I'll keep you updated as I get more info. I need to go vote...

[G whiz]

Trapped Under A Paper Mountain; No. 2 Complaint; Small business bears brunt of costs

NATIONAL POST
Jim Middlemiss
10/15/2007

Stefan Corriveau knows about government red tape. In fact, his business is at risk because of it.

Mr. Corriveau runs Algonquin Flight Centre, a flight training school in North Bay, Ont., that trains commercial pilots and flight instructors. It's a business that traditionally has been regulated by Transport Canada.

Now the Government of Ontario is imposing harsh new measures on the industry and claiming the power to regulate it as a private career college. The new regulations will add thousands of dollars in expenses to his business model, money he hasn't budgeted.

Registering his two programs will cost $1,760, plus $10,000 annually, to a compensation fund in case his school, which employs 15 people, goes under. He will also have to post a security bond of about $30,000, amounts that far exceed what he pays to the federal government. "Why do we have to pay the province for programs they have no jurisdiction over?" he asks.

Increasingly, businesses are complaining about red tape overkill. A Canadian Federation of Independent Business study in 2005 found that companies spent $33-billion a year to comply with government rules.

Companies with fewer than five employees bear the brunt, with costs averaging $5,300 per employee, compared with $1,100 for businesses employing more than 100. Red tape ranks second in the most important issues facing businesses, trailing tax burden.

So what are the burdens? Most relate to taxes and employee issues, but one of the biggest hurdles is the annual mandatory Statistics Canada business survey. A federal government study in 2006 found that businesses prepare 17 million submissions each year and 64% of businesses say the survey occupies most of their time and money when it comes to government paperwork.

Tristan Goguen, president of Internet Light and Power, a Toronto-based Internet provider, says of the survey: "It takes time to put everything together and it's mandatory."

It's not worth it, he contends. "They seem to be fairly lackadaisical about the quality of the information. I wonder about the veracity of it."

Red tape has also dissuaded him from pursuing business with the government. "We no longer bid on government business in any way, shape or form. It is extremely difficult to maintain all the information to be a vendor of record."

Help is on the way for business owners who feel overwhelmed. There's a move afoot by governments across the country at the federal, provincial and municipal level to reduce the amount of red tape.

For example, the federal government has plans to reduce the paper burden 20% by November, 2008, says Diane Ablonczy, the newly minted Secretary of State responsible for Small Business & Tourism. "Key department and agencies must actually start a count of their requirements being placed on businesses."

Ms. Ablonczy, who ran a small business before being elected, says she understands the paper-work burden businesses face.

"My main mission must be to make sure the regulatory burden gets cut."

For one province, that will be done through a tax agreement Ottawa signed with Ontario, which will allow Ontario companies to file a single tax return and maintain one point of contact starting next year.

Most provinces have red-tape reduction initiatives underway, including British Columbia. The government tallied up its regulations and found it had almost 400,000. Since 2001, that has been cut to 225,600, a 43% decline.

British Columbia is one of the first governments to put in place a mechanism to monitor the output of legislation and regulations.

It's a welcome development, says Laura Jones, vice-president of Western Canada for the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. "I am hoping this is the beginning of a red tape revolution."

She says attempts to reduce red tape are often ineffective. "It's a lot like weed-whacking," because there is no mechanism in place to prevent the weeds from growing back.

Ontario went through a red-tape-reduction push of its own in the 1990s; however, there was nothing in place to oversee the growth of red tape afterward. Heather Zordel, a lawyer at Cassels Brock & Blackwell in Toronto, says "there is a tendency to put red tape back in over time.

"We're dealing with bringing European companies to Canada and they just can't believe it. They get into the process and find out how expensive and complicated it is and they start wondering if it is really worth the effort."

Just one questions remains: Is removing red tape good for consumers? Many regulations are brought in to protect the public and, with headlines about lead-tainted toys and botulism in food products, do we risk reducing safety standards? Ms. Jones says: "We're not talking about rules and regulations important to protect human health and safety administered in a sensible way. We're talking about when we go beyond that."