First Air Crash Resolute Bay August 20 2011

[pelmet]

Of course, they won't give the detailed reason for the delay. Three years is a long time for a runway excursion.

[Diadem]

Some people will never be happy. If they came out with a final report days after the accident, someone would start shouting about how they came to their conclusions far too quickly and they must be covering something up; if they take five years to make sure everything is covered in minute detail, someone would start shouting about how politics are interfering and the TSB must be covering for someone. They can't win, no matter what.

[Gear Jerker]

Of course, they won't give the detailed reason for the delay. Three years is a long time for a runway excursion.

I think you're confusing accidents - this was a CFIT accident.

[Colonel Sanders]

As if politics never gets involved in accident investigations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

"Whereas in the case of the Egyptians, they were following a completely different line of thinking. It seemed to me that they knew very well that their man, Batouti, had done this. They were pursuing a political agenda that was driven by the need to answer to their higher-ups in a very pyramidal, autocratic political structure. The word had been passed down from on high, probably from Mubarak himself, that there was no way that Batouti, the co-pilot, could have done this. For the accident investigators in Egypt, the game then became not pursuing the truth but backing the official line."

[Diadem]

As if politics never gets involved in accident investigations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

"Whereas in the case of the Egyptians, they were following a completely different line of thinking. It seemed to me that they knew very well that their man, Batouti, had done this. They were pursuing a political agenda that was driven by the need to answer to their higher-ups in a very pyramidal, autocratic political structure. The word had been passed down from on high, probably from Mubarak himself, that there was no way that Batouti, the co-pilot, could have done this. For the accident investigators in Egypt, the game then became not pursuing the truth but backing the official line."

There is no comparison between the political situation in Egypt and Canada, and the TSB is in no way subject to the same pressures and gerrymandering as the Egyptian investigators. The fact that someone, somewhere, at some point in time, was urged to seek a different conclusion than the one to which the evidence pointed doesn't mean that the investigations in a country halfway around the world are automatically suspect. How ridiculous.

[Cat Driver]

pursuing a political agenda that was driven by the need to answer to their higher-ups in a very pyramidal, autocratic political structure.

Canada does not have a pyramidal, autocratic political structure?

[YYZSaabGuy]

pursuing a political agenda that was driven by the need to answer to their higher-ups in a very pyramidal, autocratic political structure.

Canada does not have a pyramidal, autocratic political structure?

Nice pun, Cat. And no, it doesn't, at least no more so than any other Western democracy. And certainly not to the extent that the head or any other member of the democratically-elected government would dream of actively interfering in a TSB accident investigation to ensure that it arrives at a pre-determined conclusion which supports the state religion.

But I suspect you already knew that.

[Cat Driver]

O.K. I guess I just missunderstood how your Canadian government works, somehow I got the impression that the Prime Minister pretty well calls the shots and his minions do as told.

For sure your Prime Minister will not condone his underlings paying money to bail out a loyal senator who got confused about how to submit expense accounts......

How dumb of me to think your government is autocratic.

[55+]

Look at the NTSB site and you will see many examples of reports that were released 2 yrs after accident date. Didn't this First Air accident happen August 2011..........

and no, I don't believe there is active input from the executive levels(Cabinet, PCO,PMO) of the Government of Canada to put a particular slant on an active investigation to change the findings as to cause and contributing factors.

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/repo ... ation.html

[GyvAir]

Anyone else notice that the overrun report was released 2 days after these posts?:

According to the TSB's website there are 14 current active investigations that have yet to release a final report for accidents that occured prior to the First Air accident in August 2011. Still waiting for the report on the United Express Embraer overrun in YOW that occured on June 16, 2010.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inves ... /index.asp

Get off your asses girls! That's just a bloody embarrassing disgrace! It's well into 2013!!!

[Ricktye]

Now, not saying anyone is influencing this investigation, but the Canadian system is certainly, or can be, under influence. It was a few years ago, but remember when the majority of CASB (Canadian Aviation Safety Board, the forerunner of TSB) quit when they couldn't release the true cause of the DC-8 disaster in Gander..... The government refused to let them release the cause as an onboard explosion (bomb) and instead rewrote the report to blame it on airframe icing........... Thank goodness for the moral values of those that resigned!

Have faith y'all!

As if politics never gets involved in accident investigations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

"Whereas in the case of the Egyptians, they were following a completely different line of thinking. It seemed to me that they knew very well that their man, Batouti, had done this. They were pursuing a political agenda that was driven by the need to answer to their higher-ups in a very pyramidal, autocratic political structure. The word had been passed down from on high, probably from Mubarak himself, that there was no way that Batouti, the co-pilot, could have done this. For the accident investigators in Egypt, the game then became not pursuing the truth but backing the official line."

There is no comparison between the political situation in Egypt and Canada, and the TSB is in no way subject to the same pressures and gerrymandering as the Egyptian investigators. The fact that someone, somewhere, at some point in time, was urged to seek a different conclusion than the one to which the evidence pointed doesn't mean that the investigations in a country halfway around the world are automatically suspect. How ridiculous.

[Diadem]

Now, not saying anyone is influencing this investigation, but the Canadian system is certainly, or can be, under influence. It was a few years ago, but remember when the majority of CASB (Canadian Aviation Safety Board, the forerunner of TSB) quit when they couldn't release the true cause of the DC-8 disaster in Gander..... The government refused to let them release the cause as an onboard explosion (bomb) and instead rewrote the report to blame it on airframe icing........... Thank goodness for the moral values of those that resigned!

Have faith y'all!

It took me less than a minute on Google to show that your statement is wrong. If a majority of the board members had determined that a bomb was responsible, that's what would have been published, but four out of nine isn't a majority. The fact that the minority dissension was included in the final report indicates that there wasn't a concerted attempt to suppress that conclusion; it was still released, but less than half of the investigators thought it was a credible idea. Not only that, but they didn't have any conclusive evidence, only that it "may" have been caused by an in-flight fire. This report was published at a time when airframe icing wasn't considered as big an issue for the safety of flight as it is today, and many pilots didn't think ice was a big deal, so many dismissed it as being a credible explanation. Justice Willard Estey also reviewed the evidence, which he concluded supported neither conclusion. Regardless, the mere fact that both the majority and minority reports were permitted to be released demonstrates that the government wasn't trying to cover anything up; if they had wanted to do that, they would have issued a single report and silenced anyone who threatened that position. In Egypt, those dissenters would be executed or "disappeared". This is not Egypt, and there is no comparison between their investigators and the TSB.

[55+]

Now, not saying anyone is influencing this investigation, but the Canadian system is certainly, or can be, under influence. It was a few years ago, but remember when the majority of CASB (Canadian Aviation Safety Board, the forerunner of TSB) quit when they couldn't release the true cause of the DC-8 disaster in Gander..... The government refused to let them release the cause as an onboard explosion (bomb) and instead rewrote the report to blame it on airframe icing........... Thank goodness for the moral values of those that resigned!

Have faith y'all!

It took me less than a minute on Google to show that your statement is wrong. If a majority of the board members had determined that a bomb was responsible, that's what would have been published, but four out of nine isn't a majority. The fact that the minority dissension was included in the final report indicates that there wasn't a concerted attempt to suppress that conclusion; it was still released, but less than half of the investigators thought it was a credible idea. Not only that, but they didn't have any conclusive evidence, only that it "may" have been caused by an in-flight fire. This report was published at a time when airframe icing wasn't considered as big an issue for the safety of flight as it is today, and many pilots didn't think ice was a big deal, so many dismissed it as being a credible explanation. Justice Willard Estey also reviewed the evidence, which he concluded supported neither conclusion. Regardless, the mere fact that both the majority and minority reports were permitted to be released demonstrates that the government wasn't trying to cover anything up; if they had wanted to do that, they would have issued a single report and silenced anyone who threatened that position. In Egypt, those dissenters would be executed or "disappeared". This is not Egypt, and there is no comparison between their investigators and the TSB.

There was infighting amongst the nine board members as each had strong personalities and thought their individual qualifications trumped others. Also some of them felt they should have been part of the actual field investigation. There was all kinds of stuff floating around from bombs/TR deployment/fire to the eventual item on contaminated wing(ice). For the conspiracy types, there was commentary on munitions as part of that Iran arms sale being run in the lower part of the US Pentagon by this renegade Col. North during that time. Still waiting for the movie………. perhaps I missed it.

[Dash-Ate]

In the news today, it's been over 2 years.

At what point do you move from cover-your-ass to cover-up theories? 2 years? 3 years? You tell me.

[URC]

it's been over 2 years.

Still waiting for the report on the American Airlines B737 runway excursion in YUL that happend on November 30, 2010. Coming up on 3 years. Why is this one taking so long ?

[Liquid Charlie]

Should we not be more concerned they get it right and not how long it takes. Right from day one the TSB said it would be a minimum of 2 years.

[pdw]

The narratives need to be figured out. How binding are statements in a narrative ?

If there's a gross error in a narrative it can lead to further issues. A fact misrepresented in an accident, or wrong due to an error, leaves the chances wide open for repeat because no one is the wiser ...

No matter how much publicity, the writers will want to have their final investigation narrative laid out in pallatable form and ensure there's no reason of having to correct something later.

[X-Savior]

inappropriate joke removed.

[Liquid Charlie]

They are waiting for the Mayday episode to finish filming so it will be a double feature.

Well there is a statement that should shock the room into silence -- I'm going to put it down to a rookie brain fart -- there is a difference between people airing frustration and just a dumb insensitive remark

This tragic accident hit close to home for many people on this site - there were lives lost along with 4 members of our profession - the only legacy for us as pilots, as in all accidents, is the knowledge gained to help prevent it from happening again - the families are about to have this all dragged back to the for front of their lives - trying times are here again for them with invasions of privacy from the press and likely countless others -- all we can do is show respect and be humbled by the notion this could happen to anyone of us.

[young grasshopper]

Well said Liquid Charlie. X-Savior...really? Brutal.

[X-Savior]

It was not meant to be insensitive... I apologize for coming across wrong... I was just trying to lighten the mood, as I know this hit home for everyone.

I too like everyone else here is on the edge of my seat for this report.

It was a very sad accident as the number of factors involved in this VERY unique accident will make it a VERY interesting report to read.

It was an extremely sad day for aviation in Canada and hope the investigators take all the time they need to get this one 100% correct.

[ragbagflyer]

I believe the preliminary report on this accident has been released. The back and forth communications between the company and the TSB after the release of the preliminary can extend the time until the final report is issued.

[co-joe]

Pardon me for asking, but isn't a PAR approach the only military approach that absolves the crew from the responsibility legally speaking of terrain seperation? Were they conducting one? If they were, and contacted terrain in the process, I could definitely see an argument that the military was responsible in a large way. Could be a real back lash if that's the case. I'd almost guarantee the crew wasn't trained in PAR approaches. Not that they are difficult but they are very different than anything in civilian aviation and only available at military airports on any other day.

[ettw]

They were not doing a PAR.

ETTW

[Sidebar]

I'd almost guarantee the crew wasn't trained in PAR approaches.

This is irrelevant.

They were doing an ILS to 35T. See http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/medias-media/p ... 120105.asp