Spin Training

[Expat]

777,

Spinning was my best fun in aviation , even ahead of fly-in barbecues. I used to go flying early week end mornings, just for fun. I would climb to 5000, then do my routine. First, a couple of stalls, then spin entries, and when I was comfortable, do a one turn spin, recover, then a two turn, then, three turn spins. I was doing them seriously, over a highway, in order to recover on a steady heading.
I knew that recovery from a three turn spin takes exactly 500 feet in a Cessna. It also requires almost 180 degrees.

I was good at them, and knew what to do, and what to expect.

I never used aileron inputs, and learned how to line up on my recovery heading using feet only.

I would suggest that you should spin a little more, and then share your personal views on it, and not some publication.
Cheers,
expat.

[triplese7en]

Expat -

I was doing them seriously, over a highway, in order to recover on a steady heading.
I knew that recovery from a three turn spin takes exactly 500 feet in a Cessna. It also requires almost 180 degrees.

Ahh yes.. precision flying maneuvers! I am familiar with them. Go back and read what I wrote in regard to "precision flying maneuvers".

I would suggest that you should spin a little more, and then share your personal views on it, and not some publication.

I take it you don't have much respect for "publications". Join the rest of the crowd in this thread! If you'll disregard publications from Transport Canada and the FAA, who would you listen to then?!

I love spinning too! It's fun to toss a plane around the sky for an afternoon. I did a 12 turn spin in a Pitts S-2B - that was quite fun! However, I have a hard time figuring out how your post is related to anything that I've talked about so far.

As for my "personal views" they just so happen to align perfectly with what's written in the publications I've been referencing.

[Old Dog Flying]

As for my "personal views" they just so happen to align perfectly with what's written in the publications I've been referencing.

And we old farts are called arrogant.

[mcrit]

And we old farts are called arrogant.

You are. But that's ok. Some people like that in a pilot.

[Expat]

777,

Between emergencies here, I have a little time to reply.
This tread was about spin training. Most comments I have read were about the pros and cons of spin training, and the poor training standards in that respect.
Actually, you have a point. I never understood the meaning of your posts. And I think no one here either.
In this forum, as in life in general, you have to have an idea before you write, and then slowly convince your audience that your post is relevant, informative, and convincing. Failing to do that, you are inviting negative criticism, verbal abuse, or simply the fact that seasoned posters would think that you are a troll, or just a plain idiot.
That being said, I would really like to know how you got to that high skill level, where you would spin a Pitts 12 turns, and still seem to be a low hour pilot.
No offense.
expat

[triplese7en]

That being said, I would really like to know how you got to that high skill level, where you would spin a Pitts 12 turns, and still seem to be a low hour pilot.
No offense.

Slight offense taken. What makes you think that I'm a low hour pilot? The fact that you think it takes a "high skill level" to spin a Pitts 12 turns makes me think you don't know what you're talking about.

CS might be able to comment on it since he's very experienced in flying the Pitts.

Edit: What skill differences do you need to be able to spin a Pitts 12 turns versus 1 turn?

[Expat]

Since you are that experienced, you get my admiration.
Not having flown Pitts, or any aerobatic planes, my experience was limited to exploring the joys of flight for the ordinary pilot, owning his own humble Cessna.
So I will not bore you with the details of spinning such a simple plane as a C-150, or C-172 on a Sunday morning, with a son or daughter in the right seat. You probably have done much more in the Pitts, and are without doubt an expert on this forum to talk about it. As I mentioned, I did not want to offend you, such an expert in spins, with my private experiments.
I would certainly like to hear more about your exploits as a seasoned pilot, who can certainly fly a Pitts in all types of spins, especially the inverted types.
Please share with us.
This site has a lot of thoughtful readers, although they may not respond all the time.
Cheers,
expat

[triplese7en]

I really haven't done much in the Pitts - you're giving me far too much credit.

I think you'd learn more about the Pitts from CS than from myself.

[Cat Driver]

Edit: What skill differences do you need to be able to spin a Pitts 12 turns versus 1 turn?

Before this gets to ten pages on flying a Pitts maybe you could just link the " Publications " and everyone will know how.

[triplese7en]

I don't know of any 'publication' for doing a 12 turn spin in a Pitts.

If someone were to attempt it I'd suggest they talk to someone who's familiar with the Pitts and its spinning characteristics. Someone like CS would be the best to consult.

[Colonel Sanders]

My buddy Spencer is into that stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXhKiGEK_6Q

Personally, I like to take pride in stopping a spin as
soon as possible.

For example, you could have wild heading variations
in a tailwheel aircraft which you heroically catch.

Or you could just roll it on straight

I will admit that the inverted flat spin is a hoot,
and is actually very safe, as opposed to the
upright flat spin.

This may sound weird, but I always prefer to spin
inverted as opposed to upright. The visuals are odd,
but the aircraft has no eyeballs, and when you are
inverted, the rudder above the horizontal stab is
in clean air. Incredibly effective. I can stop an
inverted flat spin in 1/4 rotation, but an upright
flat spin can take TWO rotations to stop, during
which people lose the religion and inevitably take
out the correct control inputs. There isn't much
rudder working for you below the horizontal stab
during an upright spin, especially if people put in
forward stick and blanket it even more with the
elevator.

[Colonel Sanders]

If you're really into that stuff, you can also do
crossover spins:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs5fO_11fjs

This guy starts inverted/right then converts it to
an upright/left.

[triplese7en]

Personally, I like to take pride in stopping a spin as
soon as possible.

I personally don't get much out of the spin after a few turns. It's almost like flying straight and level (other than the Gs you might be feeling) - you're not moving the controls and the plane is continuing to do exactly what it was doing a moment before!

You do bring up a great point about the inverted spin! A point which applies to a t-tail aircraft in an upright spin - although elevator effectiveness could be brought into question.

And interesting video regarding t-tail spins: http://youtu.be/I-LdRDU6zcs

[Cat Driver]

(other than the Gs you might be feeling)

Can you elaborate on the G loads in a spin?

[Big Pistons Forever]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs5fO_11fjs

[triplese7en]

Can you elaborate on the G loads in a spin?

Something (an object with mass) that is rotating will have a tendency to move outwards from the axis of rotation. This is most noticeable in a flat spin.

[triplese7en]

Paragraph 105. STALL RECOVERY - FAA AC 61-67C "Stall and Spin Awareness Training"

"The key factor in recovering from a stall is regaining positive control of the aircraft by reducing the AOA. At the first indication of a stall, the aircraft AOA must be decreased to allow the wings to regain lift. Every aircraft in upright flight may require a different amount of forward pressure or relaxation of elevator back pressure to regain lift. It should be noted that too much forward pressure can hinder recovery by imposing a negative load on the wing. The next step in recovering from a stall is to smoothly apply maximum allowable power (if applicable) to increase the airspeed and to minimize the loss of altitude. Certain high performance airplanes may require only an increase in thrust and relaxation of the back pressure on the yoke to effect recovery. As airspeed increases and the recovery is completed, power should be adjusted to return the airplane to the desired flight condition. Straight and level flight should be established with full coordinated use of the controls. The airspeed indicator or tachometer, if installed, should never be allowed to reach their high speed red lines at anytime during a practice stall."

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/medi ... HG%201.pdf

[Cat Driver]

Can you point me to some reading material that will get me up to speed on this subject, I was under the impression that G loads were measured in relation to the force of gravity, I had no idea rotational forces were measured in G's.

[triplese7en]

Cat - I have something better than some reading material; it's a video!

http://youtu.be/fAqa982j1a0

[triplese7en]

I was under the impression that G loads were measured in relation to the force of gravity, I had no idea rotational forces were measured in G's.

When you pitch up at high speed in an airplane and experience 4G, how come you have no problem with accepting that it's 4G? You're rotating around an imaginary axis as your flight path changes - it really isn't any different.

[Cat Driver]

O.k. a centrifuge can produce a outward force and if you are out on the end of the arm and sitting in a chair. That can produce a force to mimic G forces.

So lets get back in a pitts stabalized in a spin, we will be sitting very close to its vertical axis not out in the tail where rotational forces would be highest.

For some reason at no time during my training in the air show business did they teach me about G forces in a spin.....

Fortunately my not thinking about that did not kill me.

By the way now that you brought space travel into this I was fortunate to have flown with France's first astronaut Patrick Baudry, for two years.

In fact I was Patricks instructor for his type rating in the PBY, and he talked at great length about flying the space shuttle.

[Colonel Sanders]

One of the sillier things you can do in a Pitts
is an accelerated spin, either upright or inverted.

It's quite a show. Inverted, you will see -2.5G's
on the accelerometer, and if you are not wearing
a chin strap or snoopy helmet, your headset will
be snatched off your head and will bang painfully
against the canopy.

PS There is a huge difference between a snap roll
and an accelerated spin. You can do multiple snap
rolls (either inside or outside) on a vertical downline,
exchanging altitude for airspeed, with plus or minus
12 G's on the meter. Don't feel bad if you don't
understand this detail. Rich Stowell, whom everyone
thinks is the "Upset King" - and I think is an idiot -
doesn't know the difference between them, either.

[triplese7en]

Cat - I know that most upright spins are pretty much just 1G, straight down. I included a little remark about the G forces being different than level flight because they are in some spins.

Your astronaut experience sounds pretty cool!

[Cat Driver]

Yes for sure it was interesting flying with Patrick, but the funny thing was he found flying the PBY on the water to be more challenging than flying the Space Shuttle for the simple reason the Space Shuttle is computer flown except for the last bit on final to the landing.

My reason for asking so many questions about your comment about spins is because a lot of pilots read this stuff and few comment, therefore it is important to make sure there is no missunderstanding about what we are describing.

As the Colenel points out there are many variations of spins and unusual attitudes that can result in very high forces if allowed to keep progressing.

I generally let the Colonel go into the details on this stuff because he does.

Never do something someone else will do for you.

I am not sure but I believe the Colonel is satisfied I grasp a bit about how to fly.

[Colonel Sanders]

Heh. . has forgotten more about aviation than I know!