Bearskin Metro 3 CYRL accident - Speculation thread

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fche
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Re: Bearskin Metro 3 CYRL accident - Speculation thread

Post by fche »

Ki-ll wrote:Well, with all respect, if you think that a TPE331-11 spinning at 96% at zero torque is a garden-variety engine failure then I really have nothing to add.
Fair enough - I don't know how weird that is. OTOH, if one ignores the gauges and flies by the seat of one's pants - i.e., experiences the yaw, lack-of-thrust-response - it is garden-variety, no? Diagnostics shouldn't be driven exclusively, and maybe not even primarily, by the gauges.
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Re: Bearskin Metro 3 CYRL accident - Speculation thread

Post by Ki-ll »

fche wrote:
Ki-ll wrote:Well, with all respect, if you think that a TPE331-11 spinning at 96% at zero torque is a garden-variety engine failure then I really have nothing to add.
Fair enough - I don't know how weird that is. OTOH, if one ignores the gauges and flies by the seat of one's pants - i.e., experiences the yaw, lack-of-thrust-response - it is garden-variety, no? Diagnostics shouldn't be driven exclusively, and maybe not even primarily, by the gauges.
Yes, the tactile clues would be the same if not more pronounced once the power was applied. Response should have still been the same - pull the Stop and Feather control as soon as possible. That is if one forgets the fact that initial yaw happened with little differential thrust, they were at landing power setting, which means it was not well pronounced. Also, there was gusty wind - which means there was more yaw in different directions. Darkness outside would also mask the visual indication of yaw. It is evident that the crew was confused as to what happened - that Nose Left trim says a lot more to me, personally, than anything else. I am struggling with the same question over and over - why Peter and Ani did not pull that red knob.
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cncpc
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Re: Bearskin Metro 3 CYRL accident - Speculation thread

Post by cncpc »

This one at Barcelona has some similarities...

http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 19980219-1

The history is in English but the cause is in Spanish. It basically says that the "probable" cause was a high descent rate and fatigue caused by the length of flight duty and the rest periods, compounded by a possible failure of the left engine and failure to maintain directional control. Aircraft struck a tree then the ground.
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Re: Bearskin Metro 3 CYRL accident - Speculation thread

Post by Crusty »

Ki-ll wrote:
fche wrote:
Ki-ll wrote:Well, with all respect, if you think that a TPE331-11 spinning at 96% at zero torque is a garden-variety engine failure then I really have nothing to add.
Fair enough - I don't know how weird that is. OTOH, if one ignores the gauges and flies by the seat of one's pants - i.e., experiences the yaw, lack-of-thrust-response - it is garden-variety, no? Diagnostics shouldn't be driven exclusively, and maybe not even primarily, by the gauges.
Yes, the tactile clues would be the same if not more pronounced once the power was applied. Response should have still been the same - pull the Stop and Feather control as soon as possible. That is if one forgets the fact that initial yaw happened with little differential thrust, they were at landing power setting, which means it was not well pronounced. Also, there was gusty wind - which means there was more yaw in different directions. Darkness outside would also mask the visual indication of yaw. It is evident that the crew was confused as to what happened - that Nose Left trim says a lot more to me, personally, than anything else. I am struggling with the same question over and over - why Peter and Ani did not pull that red knob.
Some of us struggle each day with the question of why a co-worker and supposed friend would go to someone's funeral to support the families and then hop on avcanada and talk about semi-privileged information and then repeatedly dredge up the old thread while an investigation is still underway. Using first names does not make the whole spectacle any less upsetting.
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Re: Bearskin Metro 3 CYRL accident - Speculation thread

Post by fche »

Ki-ll wrote:I am struggling with the same question over and over
Yup. And fresh email from the TSB suggests extra information is not easily forthcoming:
TSB wrote:Thank you for your message and for your interest into the investigation report
on the occurrence A13C0150.

Flight Data Recorder (FDR) data are included in investigation reports when they
are relevant to explain the development of an event or a chain of events. The
Investigator in Charge will evaluate which data to include and especially its
relevance to be included in the report or not. As for the Cockpit Voice
Recorder (CVR) data, it is protected information and has been this way for a
number of years. The content of CVR data is no longer included in reports.
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Ki-ll
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Re: Bearskin Metro 3 CYRL accident - Speculation thread

Post by Ki-ll »

Crusty wrote: Some of us struggle each day with the question of why a co-worker and supposed friend would go to someone's funeral to support the families and then hop on avcanada and talk about semi-privileged information and then repeatedly dredge up the old thread while an investigation is still underway. Using first names does not make the whole spectacle any less upsetting.
I am sorry you or anyone else feel that way. I have reviewed all my posts in two topics on this accident and I stand by all of them. At no point I have divulged any information that is either confidential, company-proprietary or was passed on to me privately by colleagues. All of the information I posted is available from open sources such as news, aircraft and maintenance manuals or investigation report itself. I flew those airplanes for several months after the accident so I was looking for answers, I still fly turboprop airplanes of similar size so I want to know what I can do to save people in the back, one source I used was discussion with some very knowledgeable people here. If your way out of this situation is silence, that's fine with me.
fche wrote:
Ki-ll wrote:I am struggling with the same question over and over
Yup. And fresh email from the TSB suggests extra information is not easily forthcoming:
TSB wrote:Thank you for your message and for your interest into the investigation report
on the occurrence A13C0150.

Flight Data Recorder (FDR) data are included in investigation reports when they
are relevant to explain the development of an event or a chain of events. The
Investigator in Charge will evaluate which data to include and especially its
relevance to be included in the report or not. As for the Cockpit Voice
Recorder (CVR) data, it is protected information and has been this way for a
number of years. The content of CVR data is no longer included in reports.
Looks like we will not know the answer to the questions that bother us. I wonder if obtaining FDR data is possible at all. They will never release the CVR contents, that's for sure.
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cncpc
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Re: Bearskin Metro 3 CYRL accident - Speculation thread

Post by cncpc »

Lads, whatever the process and the disagreements about that process on here, it all sums to one thing...Pull the red knob. We're here to learn, and that's what we've learned. Nobody disputes that.

Although its not a red knob, the same thing applies to the NT Air accident in Richmond. And probably a few others.
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Maynard
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Re: Bearskin Metro 3 CYRL accident - Speculation thread

Post by Maynard »

We all know they didn't pull the S/F. We will never know for sure why. Rather than bickering and berating one another, why not talk about "what could have made them not think to pull it", rather than "all they had to do was pull it." Its not that simple. But apparently having professional discussions on this site are 1 in a million. We have facts showing that it was a very complex situation for any crew.
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I guess I should write something here.
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