airway wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:24 am

digits_ wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:10 am The last 2 companies I worked at, had it in their transport approved COM that time spent travelling to a deicing bay was not included in flight time. Personally, I think that's ridiculous.

This is absolutely ridiculous. By this logic, time spent traveling to the runup bay for a runup should also not be included in flight time.

Or how about the time spent traveling to the button of the runway, because you had to stop momentarily to let another aircraft clear the runway?

Oh, I agree. No argument here. Happy to know it's not a common thing.

Just explaining where my grey area thing comes from. I've been looking for a TC reference for this, but couldn't find anything strangely enough. There must be some TC involvement, no idea why companies would come up with it by themselves.

ahramin wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:19 am Oldguy, I don't see how Airframe could have been more clear. For his pilot logbook he is using his estimated air time plus .1 or .2 depending on his estimate of time taxiing. Obviously air time + 0.1 is not = air time.

Well let me help you. When he writes this “ I determined that the Tach did indeed correlate very accurately with Air Time, so I use it for recording times in my and the aircraft's log book as air time. “ That seems to indicate that he puts tach time, which is equivalent to air time, his words, in both the planes logs and his own. I realize he makes mention of adding a point or two to come up with flight time, but he doesn’t state that he uses flight time for his own log. Do you see how he could be clearer now?

He could have stated, “ I determined that the Tach did indeed correlate very accurately with Air Time, so I use it for recording times in the aircraft's log book as air time. I then add 0.1 or 0.2 for flight time and enter that in my log book.”

Airframe, no offence meant by the above, I just wanted your clarification, I think I know what you meant but I want to be sure. I have listened to these round tables in person and sometimes one person invariably uses flight time instead of airtime or vice versa and you are left fairly certain that you understand what they meant but it may not jive with literally what they said. I guess it’s obvious to everyone but me

Oldguystrtn2fly wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:56 amAre you saying you use airtime for your pilot log book? And not flight time?

No, I log Flight time, but I get it from Tach time for Air Time plus .1 to .2 depending on time spent on ground. I do not log exact clock times at start, takeoff, landing, and shutdown. Sorry, I guess I did word that a little awkwardly the first time.

Zaibatsu wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:08 amFlight time starts at the first movement of the aircraft for the purpose of taking off. I don't think rolling forward and then setting up avionics, getting clearance, etc is within the spirit of that definition.

It most certainly is. The reason they worded it this way is that you don't get to log "flight time" when you're just repositioning an airplane on the ground... ie. if your aircraft is on one side of the airport, and the fuel pumps are on the other, and you have to wait at the hold short line for 10 minutes while they land a stream of traffic before they can scoot you across to the fuel pumps, where you shut down again to fuel up, you don't get to log that 0.2 on your subsequent flight. The airplane didn't move for the purpose of taking off, it moved for the purpose of buying gas.

Ah, I see others have quoted the regs that confirm this.

If you spend forty minutes doing slow and fast taxi runs as a first lesson in a taildragger, with no intention to take off, can the student log any time? What about the instructor?

AirFrame wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:08 am

Oldguystrtn2fly wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:56 amAre you saying you use airtime for your pilot log book? And not flight time?

No, I log Flight time, but I get it from Tach time for Air Time plus .1 to .2 depending on time spent on ground. I do not log exact clock times at start, takeoff, landing, and shutdown. Sorry, I guess I did word that a little awkwardly the first time.

Thank you. Makes perfect sense!

AirFrame wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:17 am The airplane didn't move for the purpose of taking off, it moved for the purpose of buying gas.

Again, by this logic, we should not be logging time spent to taxi to the runup bay to do a runup. The airplane moved for the purpose of doing a runup.

I would think not. Same thing if you spend an hour practicing emergency procedures in the cockpit before going flying.

What if you do an hour of ground handling and fast taxi runs, followed by a single circuit for 0.1 airtime? What could you record in your personal log?

airway wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:11 am

AirFrame wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:17 am The airplane didn't move for the purpose of taking off, it moved for the purpose of buying gas.

Again, by this logic, we should not be logging time spent to taxi to the runup bay to do a runup. The airplane moved for the purpose of doing a runup.

If the purpose of starting the engine was to take off, it counts. Getting to the runway, doing your runup, getting clearances, are all part of the Flight.

Going for gas is not, because your purpose on *that* startup was just to get gas. You'll shut down to do so. Next engine start is next flight movement.

photofly wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:45 am What if you do an hour of ground handling and fast taxi runs, followed by a single circuit for 0.1 airtime? What could you record in your personal log?

According to the AIM, 1.1. "Flight Time is the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight."

So is that a yes or a no?

What about time on floats spent learning sailing, docking, beaching etc. You could spend an hour or more in the plane and not leave the water.

What about a rejected takeoff? Airplane moved for the purpose of taking off but didn't actually take off.

Or what if you cancel the flight because the student just sucks at taxiing
You had the intention of going flying though initially.

Or what if you were just going to taxi, and changed your mind later and went flying without shutting down. Can you log from when the aircraft first moved, or only from when you changed your mind? Or from when you first had the idea you might fly even if you weren't quite sure at that time?

Personally, I had a situation once where the second engine wouldn't start and we had to return to the gate. Flight time about .5 and no air time. We had to log it in the aircraft log, it showed up on our company pilot logbook report, but I didn't log it in my personal log. It counted towards my duty day and total flight time limit though so technically I guess I should have and I certainly wouldn't say there is anything wrong with logging it.

photofly wrote: ↑Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:08 pm So is that a yes or a no?

You didn't ask a yes or no question?

What if the pilot is wearing blue underwear, and the passenger is wearing red? Log what you want to, just try to be consistent about it. The reality is that nobody will ever read it in this amount of detail.

AirFrame wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:33 am What if the pilot is wearing blue underwear, and the passenger is wearing red? Log what you want to, just try to be consistent about it. The reality is that nobody will ever read it in this amount of detail.

Underwear of different colours is allowed as long as its a pilot to passenger comparison. Pilots and copilots must have matching underwear, just color, not size. Says so in the CARS, 17-5(13)

AirFrame wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:33 am Log what you want to, just try to be consistent about it. The reality is that nobody will ever read it in this amount of detail.

There are 63 pages of comments discussing the issue in the following thread, so there are some folks that are looking at it in detail.

Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook