Air Canada and their taxi speed

[yycflyguy]

Kinda spooky how we agree more and more Rockie .... perhaps I should be posting on the Mandatory Retirement thread again!

[Big Pistons Forever]

This threat is a threat on the entire industry. No exaggeration. This is the fight for your livelihood. This is the fight for all Canadian aviators.

Exactly.

If Air Canada has its way pensions will be gone and they will steadily farm out the flying to the lowest bidder until "Air Canada" ceases to exist. If you think the race to the bottom in this industry is a problem now just wait until Air Canada straps a rocket to it should they win. This is ultimately every Canadian pilot's career we're fighting for here whether or not they fly, or aspire to fly for Air Canada.

In that light reaching the runway a little slower and safer isn't so bad is it?

Sorry but I think this taxi to rule is wrong. Your point about the future is bang on but that is still no excuse to be unprofessional when operating the aircraft. There are plenty of ways to remind the fools that run Air Canada that the whole operation works a lot better when the Pilots are happy without demonstrating poor airmanship.

[rudder]

This threat is a threat on the entire industry. No exaggeration. This is the fight for your livelihood. This is the fight for all Canadian aviators.

Exactly.

In that light reaching the runway a little slower and safer isn't so bad is it?

If you guys believe that taxiing slowly, refusing drafts, booking off sick, writing up extra snags, or any other traditional pilot work-to-rule campaign is going to make a difference this time around, you are seriously misjudging your circumstances.

You are probably correct, there is a Howitzer pointed right at you. But you are responding with a water pistol. This is the big leagues and you need better advisors, better resources, and a better strategy. You are up against someone that has access to resources that currently far exceed your own and he has a head start. He will not back down simply because you are burning a little extra fuel.

This matter will not be settled on the taxiways of Canadian airports. It will be settled in the AC Board Room or the office of the Minister of Labour. Start developing a response based on that reality and you will have taken a step in the right direction.

[BLZD1]

If Air Canada gets their way:

1. There will over 1/3 of ACPA pilots list looking for work.
2. Pay cuts to Westjet wages because they are connected to AC wages.(correct me if i am wrong please)
3. The new carrier will have lower operating costs than Westjet most likely.

2-3 min taxi delays please. I guess I will be flying a 320 or 737 for $65000 in the left seat. Nice!!!

Stop pissing on your fellow pilots! It's war time here at AC!

[Rockie]

Your point about the future is bang on but that is still no excuse to be unprofessional when operating the aircraft.

Taxiing slowly is not being unprofessional. Being unsafe or deliberate and flagrant violations of the SOP's is, but that's definitely NOT what's going on here.

If you guys believe that taxiing slowly, refusing drafts, booking off sick, writing up extra snags, or any other traditional pilot work-to-rule campaign is going to make a difference this time around, you are seriously misjudging your circumstances.

You are absolutely right, and nobody believes that. The real fight hasn't even started yet.

Kinda spooky how we agree more and more Rockie .... perhaps I should be posting on the Mandatory Retirement thread again!

Not to thread drift, but you'll notice the overall discussion is just now reaching the things myself and others were saying years ago. Still have a ways to go yet...age 65 BFOR anyone? In any event this is small potatoes compared to the current fight, and the time has long passed where we could materially effect what's going to happen on that file to manage the outcome anyway so it's rather pointless to talk about it now. So I haven't been.

[yycflyguy]

Your point about the future is bang on but that is still no excuse to be unprofessional when operating the aircraft.

Taxiing slowly is not being unprofessional. Being unsafe or deliberate and flagrant violations of the SOP's is, but that's definitely NOT what's going on here.

If you guys believe that taxiing slowly, refusing drafts, booking off sick, writing up extra snags, or any other traditional pilot work-to-rule campaign is going to make a difference this time around, you are seriously misjudging your circumstances.

You are absolutely right, and nobody believes that. The real fight hasn't even started.

Agreed on both posts.

This is just the foreplay.... I can't wait for the main event. Our Strike mandate has another 51 or so days... probably less when it becomes obvious to the Mediator, the government and our NC that AC has no intention on negotiating.

Expect delays. Plan for it.

[Rockie]

This is just the foreplay....

Agreed but I have a more apt analogy. In dog fight parlance this is just the snarling stage. There will be no lov'in going on between Air Canada and the employees that make the company for a very, very long time.

[rudder]

... probably less when it becomes obvious to the Mediator, the government and our NC that AC has no intention on negotiating.

Neither the Minister, Justice Otis, nor any tribunal or arbitrator is going to reward bad behaviour. Furthermore, the Labour Code requires full disclosure during bargaining. AC has a legal obligation to bargain fairly, honestly, openly, and in good faith. That does not mean that they have to capitulate. The same obligation falls to ACPA.

There will be no home runs that flow out of this process. All of the rhetoric about extreme outcomes makes for great theatre but is unlikely particularly if the final result falls to either the Minister or an arbitrator.

What is painfully obvious is that nobody involved is prepared to deal with the reality facing AC in 2014 and beyond. What is required is a plan that will generate sustainable cash flows that can reasonably be expected to meet the financial obligations associated with pension and fleet renewal in an environment of increased local competition.

This looks more and more like a pi$$ing contest and less and less like fact based problem solving. In the end, this is unfolding like a dysfunctional marriage where the logical conclusion would be divorce. I guess the only remaining question is who gets to keep the house?

[Biff]

I can sure understand your anger at management, and like most pilots in Canada, I support you, however now you are merely inconveniencing other airlines. If you are trying to prove a point, I'm not sure this is the way. You've added maybe a couple of minutes to the block time and burnt a little extra fuel(although not much). As far as the safety card goes, if on a long 2 mile stretch it's only safe to taxi 10kts, how can you possibly get airborne on a similar(although wider) 2 mile stretch?

If you really wanted to make a statement, why don't you extend the flaps at 25 miles out and maybe drop the gear down at 15 miles out. That way you can maintain an appropriate airspeed in the terminal area, thus not inconveniencing anyone, and still "stick it to the man".

If your really concerned about increasing your block time, can't you just adjust your speed in cruise. Generally that shouldn't inconvenience anyone else.

Again guys, you have the support of most of the other pilots in Canada, just try to protest in a way that doesn't inconvenience us or cause us to spend more in fuel or airframe time. I say this as we have a great relationship with our employer and are striving to fly our aircraft in a professional manner, which means both safely and efficiently.

[Donald]

I fully support the AC guys/gals, love your product, and I want you to at least maintain if not raise the bar for aviation in Canada.

Having said that...

Work-to-rule (which is what this slow taxi, slow cruise, block growth BS sounds like) will only piss off your passengers and future customers once they start missing connections or arrive late a few times. When your customers lose confidence, they will start booking WJ even more, and that will only serve to further hurt your bottom line and strengthen your management's position that they need concessions to stay alive. In the meantime, they collect bonuses and don't really care.

Bottom line, don't destroy whatever confidence is left for your customers!!

[Rockie]

What is required is a plan that will generate sustainable cash flows that can reasonably be expected to meet the financial obligations associated with pension and fleet renewal in an environment of increased local competition.

Couldn't agree more. Still waiting for the highly paid best and brightest to come up with one. For sure their LCC plan (ver. 3.5) is not it.

If your really concerned about increasing your block time, can't you just adjust your speed in cruise.

Block growth is not the concern, nor apparently are our salaries since we are flight planned most everywhere as a matter of policy at Cost Index 0. It`s not possible to go any slower, and most of the time on short sectors we`re going much slower than Porter.

[SilentMajority]

[/quote]
What is painfully obvious is that nobody involved is prepared to deal with the reality facing AC in 2014 and beyond. What is required is a plan that will generate sustainable cash flows that can reasonably be expected to meet the financial obligations associated with pension and fleet renewal in an environment of increased local competition.
[/quote]

Quote of the week..."Labor's worst enemy is an unprofitable employer."

[Rockie]

Quote of the week..."Labor's worst enemy is an unprofitable employer."

Let's review some history.

Our current CEO was the architect of the plan that withdrew Aeroplan, Jazz and maintenance services from Air Canada and sold them off for 4 billion dollars I believe, not one cent of which actually went to Air Canada. "Unlocking the hidden value" was the catch phrase, but they left off the part that said the proceeds wouldn't be returned to the company that created it.

That left only the employees, aircraft, and the passengers that bought seats in them, plus the rapidly accumulating debt since 3/4 of all the value was already removed. Both the debt and the employees are considered a liability on the Air Canada balance sheet leaving the aircraft and the passengers as the only remaining assets. The only reason the aircraft and passengers weren't taken as well was because of a little thing called our scope clause.

The company now wants to completely eliminate our scope clause removing any contractual rights the "AIR CANADA" pilots have to flying Air Canada aircraft and passengers.

What do you think our current CEO would do if we let that happen?

[scopiton]

everything is politics at air canada. you start a discussion about taxi speed and you end up with business recipes and political opinions...

[YYZSaabGuy]

everything is politics at air canada. you start a discussion about taxi speed and you end up with business recipes and political opinions...

Be grateful it hasn't degenerated into yet another FP60 slugfest....

[Old fella]

everything is politics at air canada. you start a discussion about taxi speed and you end up with business recipes and political opinions...

Be grateful it hasn't degenerated into yet another FP60 slugfest....

.


If commentary continues to a third page..... it(FP60) will no doubt, be a topic

[Rockie]

If commentary continues to a third page..... it(FP60) will no doubt, be a topic

Not unless you guys make it one. So how about you drop it and spare everybody?

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

Hey Rockie

Interesting to see the revisionist history come out....

Let's step back a few years. AC filed for bankruptcy in Apr 2003 after all the unions gave Mr Milton the "middle finger". So the corp filed under the CCAA.

In order to get investors to invest a huge amount of cash > $1.5 Billion...after the shareholders, bond holders, aircraft lease holders (and yes, the employees) took big haircuts, Milton came up with a plan. Invest your cash in AC, and we'll split up the company and you'll get all your money back within a few years...

The investors (GE Capital, Cerberus, Deutche Bank) all agreed to this plan, and signed the "plan of arrangement".

All the employee groups signed off on the plan.

The plan was executed and worked as advertised. Then a lawyer comes along and tells ACPA that the employees and pilots are getting a raw deal with the ACE $2billion payout to the shareholders. They go to court. The judge spanks APCA in her judgement essentially telling them that they signed on to the plan of arrangement, this breakup and sell-off was all laid out there, so don't come crying to me....

If Milton hadn't come up with the plan he did, there would have been no AC after sometime in 2004.

Now you might suggest that would have been a better thing to happen....but please don't cry about the "deal"....the only reason AC exists 8 years later is because of that deal....and all the complainers/whinners about that deal have had 8 years to find a better job...funny though, not too many have left for "greener" pastures recently.

[YYZSaabGuy]

If commentary continues to a third page..... it(FP60) will no doubt, be a topic

Not unless you guys make it one. So how about you drop it and spare everybody?

Don't believe either Old Fella or myself have been responsible for the ongoing FP60 debate in this forum, Rockie. Not much for us to drop.

[Rockie]

Invest your cash in AC, and we'll split up the company and you'll get all your money back within a few years...

What investment did Air Canada end up with? As I said everything's been stripped except the one thing our scope clause protected, and now they want that too leaving nothing. Revisionist history indeed...

Don't believe either Old Fella or myself have been responsible for the ongoing FP60 debate in this forum,

No, just this thread. Nobody wants to talk about it and it doesn't belong here anyway, so stop talking about it.

[Ah_yeah]

Kaffee, you have no clue. You must have read Milton, the sociopath`s, autobiography.
Ultimately, my bad for responding to the sausages on this board.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Don't believe either Old Fella or myself have been responsible for the ongoing FP60 debate in this forum,

No, just this thread. Nobody wants to talk about it and it doesn't belong here anyway, so stop talking about it.

That didn't stop you from jumping all over it above, did it? And besides, I don't see "Moderator" beside your name, so you don't get to tell people what they can't write about. If you don't like the way a thread is going, stop reading it.

[Rockie]

You're right, I'm not a moderator and can't tell you what not to write about. So please feel free to write all you want about that topic you criticize other people for writing about. I'll just read.

[YYZSaabGuy]

You're right, I'm not a moderator and can't tell you what not to write about. So please feel free to write all you want about that topic you criticize other people for writing about. I'll just read.

And you should continue to feel free to write all you want about that topic, while simultaneously telling other people that they shouldn't write about it. I'll just read too.

[Old fella]

Now Rockie and YYZ SaabGuy………. Play nice, this is the old man and you may be sent to your rooms and your toys taken away from you.

Rockie: My commentary was tongue in cheek (I am old and nothing better to do – we are like that you know). It is apparent this (FP60) is a very sensitive topic with you so I do apologize if you took my post as rubbing your face into it. Shant happen again…
Cheers
OF