Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

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Rockie
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

photofly wrote:(Please don't think that harassment is minor or trivial - a sexual assault is harassment, and harassment includes some very serious criminal behaviour.)
I don't.
photofly wrote:It's about the company being complicit in or encouraging staff to socialize, outside of the immediate workplace, at night, in individual's hotel rooms, away from home. The consumption of alcohol only compounds the problem. I think that most people would consider that a situation where sexual harassment is reasonably foreseeable.
Company functions and socializing on layovers are not the same thing, and I think most people are adults with a moral compass as troubleshot says above and are able to refrain from sexual harassment even after having a few drinks. No, it is not reasonably foreseeable.
photofly wrote:Meanwhile, if it proves true that several more flight attendants have come forward with allegations of harassment the company has a hard row to hoe to show that whatever it has done, it has done enough.
I'm glad you're starting to see that.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by ajet32 »

Thank you piano keys for saying what I've been thinking for the time this thread has been going. That young lady is the same age as my daughter. The idea that something as serious as this may have been ignored or swept under the rug is quite simply horrifying. As a father I would be ready to string the Captain up and I am one myself. I fully agree in innocent until proven guilty but, if the company is complicit in covering this up more heads should roll than Captain " M ".
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photofly
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote: Company functions and socializing on layovers are not the same thing, and I think most people are adults with a moral compass as troubleshot says above and are able to refrain from sexual harassment even after having a few drinks. No, it is not reasonably foreseeable.
It's settled law (this case is in Ontario, but let's extrapolate to Federal jurisdiction) that a company is "on the hook" for the behaviour of employees while staying away on business: see for instance Simpson v. Consumers' Association of Canada et al.

If it keeps happening, how can you say it's not reasonably foreseeable? It can only be a surprise the first time, surely?
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Donald »

How senior a pilot would M be, considering he was a captain in at least 2010 and maybe 2008?
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Rockie
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

photofly wrote:If it keeps happening, how can you say it's not reasonably foreseeable? It can only be a surprise the first time, surely?
Thousands upon thousands of crew members stay in the same hotel night after night without getting themselves in trouble. Don't let the high profile of this mess extend to the industry as a whole - or even WestJet. I'm quite sure 99.99% of WestJet crew are utterly dismayed and embarrassed at the implied association.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

Perhaps we disagree about the meaning of reasonably foreseeable. It's not reasonably foreseeable that harassment will occur on any individual occasion but, as you put it, with thousands upon thousands of crew members staying in the same hotel night after night, it might be reasonably foreseeable that harassment will occur on some occasions.

I believe that if WestJet knows that i) members of staff who have supervisory roles one over the other ii) socialize at night iii) in pairs, in hotel rooms iv) paid for by the company and while on company layovers v) and the staff members are accustomed to drinking alcohol on these occasions - and it doesn't take firm steps to prevent this happening - it's at risk of a court deciding it's not doing enough. So it rather depends on what steps they do take.

The "everyone's an adult, they can do what they like" line isn't going to cut it, in a courtroom.
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Rockie
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

No, I think we agree in principle but it's not just between supervisors and those under them. The best way to prevent this from happening is first - education. Second - come down like a ton of bricks on people too thick headed to benefit from the education.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

I don't know if that would do, because of the difficulty proving to an adequate standard who the boneheads are in order to take disciplinary action against them. Hence the difficulty of the problems in this present case.

I'm waiting for the "any two people alone together in a room with the door shut is automatically gross misconduct and they are both summarily dismissed" rule. That protects both parties. Some organizations have a similar rule about no adult alone in a room with a child. Simply to avoid the risk.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by rigpiggy »

A guy I used to work with was a known player, great talker, ok pilot, but in a lot of ways a douchenozzle. Went to CJ, skipped to AC wasn't long before we heard rumours of flight attendants asking not to fly with him. We all knew the reason why, just it hasn't had a Mandy Lewis to complain to the press about him.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by mmm..bacon »

photofly wrote:I'm waiting for the "any two people alone together in a room with the door shut is automatically gross misconduct and they are both summarily dismissed" rule. That protects both parties.
But, there might be times when both parties might want to be alone in the same room together. Are they going to face dismissal for persuing a mutual relationship? Then again, 'Dont dip your pen in company ink!'....
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photofly
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

mmm..bacon wrote: But, there might be times when both parties might want to be alone in the same room together.
Well, then they can't. Or they can book and pay for their own hotel. Company dime, company rules.

The "correct" outcome to Ms. Lewis's complaints might be some changes that nobody, including Ms. Lewis, enjoys. But, on reflection, I'm sure she'd agree that staff must be protected from harassment no matter how inconvenient to the majority of employees.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by 43S/172E »

The following is taken from the Airline Employee Forum and written by a writer known as Dagger. Dagger writes very clearly and in a very succinct manner.

http://theairlinewebsite.com/topic/4097 ... et/?page=6

I'm sure people engage in sexual activity. It's as old as the human race and why we are here. And airline pilots and FAs? Well, a lot of FAs marry pilots, so yes, there is fraternizing. I submit to you that every company has office parties, every company has men and women from the same office, maybe the same department, meeting in the bar down the street. And bosses exert power over employees which can lead to a nasty workplace environment, not only for the predator and victim, but for all of their co-workers who know what is going on, and are angry or resentful of the central characters - I've seen the latter first hand.

In the Westjet case, the issue is one of fact- did the event occur as alleged. It's about consent (or lack thereof) by the individuals and compliance with the company's policy and the law. The nub of the Westjet issue are these questions:



1. What did the airline know about any of the victims, whether we are talking about one, two or nine?

2. When did it know?

3. How thorough and professional was the investigation or investigations?

4. Was evidence withheld from police?

5. Was remedial action required, and was it taken, and if remedial action was taken was it commensurate with the circumstances of the case (.i.e did it fit the 'crime'?

6. Were individuals in this case treated fairly, was dismissal justified for the plaintiff? Was Pilot M shielded from having to face the consequences of his actions?

7. Are Westjet's sexual harassment rules and complaints procedures robust, and are they applied diligently?

8. How high up the food chain did plaintiff complaint go? (I'd be subpoenaing every email the relevant officials ever sent or received going back to 2008)

9. Does Westjet have more to hide than the information in the public domain as of tonight?

And one more thing: Gregg's stock in trade is his swagger. Whereas someone like Calin almost never utters the word WestJet, Gregg always seem to be trying to stick it to Air Canada in his public declarations. It's very American-style.

Well, from my experience, sometimes guys who think they have oversize balls aren't the sensitive types who can empathize with people who tend not to be his or her sheeple followers. People with too much swagger often have narcissistic tendencies that blind them to some things around them - call it selective vision.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by 43S/172E »

Another post from Dagger on a earlier page

The PR problem now is that this is becoming a regular story, with new people coming forward, new allegations, and the picture developing is no longer just question of one pilot and one flight attendant, but a systemic problem: Did Westjet create and maintain an environment where a few rogue individuals could act like predators and the worst punishment they would receive was to be separated at work from their prey?

If that's what forms in the public mind, it will do discernible damage to the Westjet brand and the willingness of some people to fly Westjet - some group and convention business will be the first to go, many organizations have codes of conduct they expect to be upheld. God forbid if it starts looking like Westjet actually protected predator pilots. That will hurt a lot in the pocketbook. This is, after all, 2016.

I don't think Greg's response was right. The airline has a Tylenol problem, and needs to double down on re-assuring the staff and public that this doesn't happen any more because it can't happen any more - the safeguards and deterrents in place are robust. Eight alleged victims sounds less like a lawsuit by a single FA and more like a systemic issue.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

photofly wrote:
mmm..bacon wrote: But, there might be times when both parties might want to be alone in the same room together.
Well, then they can't. Or they can book and pay for their own hotel. Company dime, company rules.
That can't be done and here's why:

1. People have the right to associate with whoever they want - company dime or not.

2. It's unenforceable in a practical sense unless you're willing to post chaperones at every door.

3. Even if it was enforceable nobody would work for a company with such medieval rules. This isn't Saudi Arabia.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by bobcaygeon »

Why doesn't Captain M just man up and lose the disguise and then take his lawyer to Maui on one of WJ twice daily flights to OGG? Company travel is about 150ish?? I'm sure someone could look at tomorrow loads. I can still by a ticket so their must be room. Hawaii is pretty civilized so I'd pretty confident that if I was innocent I would have nothing to worry about.

PS Gregg should be talking on the phone Michael McCain of Maple Leaf foods. His handling of the listeria crisis in 2008 will live in Executive courses for decades.

If Tony Hayward (of BP Deepwater Horizon fame) offers some advice I'd pass on it or just do exactly the opposite of what he says.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

Rockie wrote:
photofly wrote:
mmm..bacon wrote: But, there might be times when both parties might want to be alone in the same room together.
Well, then they can't. Or they can book and pay for their own hotel. Company dime, company rules.
That can't be done and here's why:

1. People have the right to associate with whoever they want - company dime or not.
If the company is responsible for what its employees do to each other in hotel rooms (and Ms Lewis correctly claims it is) then it has every right to control its employees in those same hotel rooms. You can't have it both ways.
2. It's unenforceable in a practical sense unless you're willing to post chaperones at every door.
That's not really the point.

-Hey, I went back to the Captain's room for drinks on his balcony alone, and he assaulted me! I demand you sack him!
-You're both sacked for gross misconduct. Goodbye!

Company harassment issue solved, for those two employees, and for everyone else when word gets around.
3. Even if it was enforceable nobody would work for a company with such medieval rules. This isn't Saudi Arabia.
Er... So people only work for WestJet for the one-on-one in hotel rooms? Ban the away-trip sex and nobody will work for them? No wonder they have a harassment problem!
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by pianokeys »

photofly wrote:
2. It's unenforceable in a practical sense unless you're willing to post chaperones at every door.
That's not really the point.

-Hey, I went back to the Captain's room for drinks on his balcony alone, and he assaulted me! I demand you sack him!
-You're both sacked for gross misconduct. Goodbye!

Company harassment issue solved, for those two employees, and for everyone else when word gets around.
Why would you fire a victim. That's almost as stupid as saying its the victims fault for going into the room with the Captain.

If the Captain is too stupid to pick up on the fact that the victim just wants to hang out and just be friends, thats the Captains issue. Not the Captain and victims issue.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

The company has an obligation to provide a harassment-free workplace.

The employees - not just the douchebags but everyone - Captains, FA's, men and women, everyone - have a duty to themselves and to each other to maintain a harassment-free workplace, and to cooperate with the company's efforts to provide them a harassment-free workplace.

The company has a problem in investigating allegations of harassment: natural fairness requires weight to be given to an alleged harasser's evidence, and in many cases this will make it impossible to take disciplinary action. The difficulty in taking action following many allegations, required by by fairness to all parties, hinders the company's ability to demonstrate to all staff that it takes a tough line on harassment.

So it's reasonable for the company to have rules that forbid scenarios where it would ever have to investigate and judge a "he-said she-said" complaint.

The best way forward is for all staff to assist the company by making sure they do not place themselves in a situation where a "he-said she-said" can occur. By allowing him or herself to be alone in a hotel room with another member of staff, an employee is failing to cooperate with the company's anti-harassment policy. And should therefore be terminated.
Why would you fire a victim. That's almost as stupid as saying its the victims fault for going into the room with the Captain.
I'm not firing the victim. I don't even know if there is a victim. The FA could be the victim of an assault, or the Captain could be the victim of a malicious allegation. I don't want to have to decide if there is a victim, and who it is, because if I do, I'll someday end up in the situation WestJet is in now. However I have two staff members who by placing themselves alone together in a room failed to comply with their obligations to all other staff to help me maintain a safe workplace, contrary to company policy, and who therefore should be terminated.
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Last edited by photofly on Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by 43S/172E »

Another very thoughtful post by Dagger on the AEF and it will be interesting see how "some" people respond to this one..

We'll deal with the outcomes when they are known, but if there are multiple cases against Pilot M, and there seem to be, then there is a likelihood that his behaviour was at the very least harassment. Whether that is sufficient to stand up to the legal standards for harassment is another thing. But I don't know who Pilot M is, wouldn't recognize him, so to this point, this is something largely known to those within the company.

I also find some of you too easily slip into the mode of blaming and shaming the woman, even suggesting that maybe she is a woman scorned, or someone who took an innocent advance and turned it into a feminist cause. Frankly, I wonder how some of you male pilots would react if a male captain grabbed you an throw you on your stomach on a bed and tried to pull down your pants. I bet you'd come out of that experience feeling pretty angry and or depressed at the victimization to which you'd been suggested. I doubt some of you would have the courage to admit a man preyed on you. It took a lot for the male victims of priest abuse to come forward, too.
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Rockie
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

I'll say it again Photofly, this isn't Saudi Arabia and Sharia law doesn't apply. A company cannot tell people who they can and cannot associate with. Providing a harassment free workplace does not mean preventing normal human interaction. It means having strict policies against harassment, educating employees on what those harassment policies mean, properly investigating reported incidences of it and if necessary punishing those responsible.

You do not prevent harassment by isolating everybody. It doesn't work in places where strict Sharia law applies, and it's not even legal here. Such a rule wouldn't last five minutes against a legal challenge.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

I heard you the first time. The fact that you have to keep calling it Sharia to find an argument against it shows you're not talking any sense.

If a company is responsible for what goes on in hotel rooms it can control what goes on in hotel rooms. And this has nothing to do with isolating people - party in groups of three or more, if you have to. But two people in a hotel room alone exposes the company to risk that it is required to prevent.

Ok, so I get that you don't like the policy. I agree, it's rather draconian. Let's hear a practical solution from you, then. "Education" isn't cutting it. Let's say there's a pilot, let's call him N, that likes to jump on FAs when nobody else is around. Do you think he's just badly educated? Is the problem merely that nobody told him he shouldn't do that?

Or perhaps you think we should automatically take accusations of harassment as true? No need for an enquiry, just sack the alleged perpetrator?
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by plhought »

This is absurd. Developing some sort of rule to ban opposite sexes (or same really) from being together in hotel rooms is ridiculous.

Think of the little ops out there. Male & Female medivac/703 crew sharing a small coop/crew house. Or the female AME tenting out in the bush alone with the Helo pilot 5 clicks from the mine. Happens every day. Prudence and our bloody morals dictate the guy doesn't jump the female.

Thousand's of other professions out there men & women work together in close proximity, with no or little oversight, with the expectation that one isn't going to pounce on the other.

This isn't a questions of internal rules/regs. It's the question of an alleged fool taking advantage of a situation, and the failure of the company to deal with him.

Frankly, if one of my employees had an outstanding charge/'wants-to-be-questioned' in some jurisdiction regarding sexual assault - I certainly wouldn't want him in my outfit.

Look at the RCMP/Military/Medical Prof et al. These are organizations with admitted previously-misogynistic cultures with harassment and abuse policies that fill whole bookshelves. They still struggle with it. They've discovered the only solution is to get the creeps out. Period. Beatin' around the bush by relocating personnel & duties, isolating the sexes, and protecting senior staff just spreads the problem and pleases no-one.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by crazyaviator »

They've discovered the only solution is to get the creeps out. Period.
The Catholic church has yet to discover that remedy and they have been at it for nearly 2000 years
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Rockie
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Rockie »

That kind of policy is draconian and illegal Photofly, you can't tell people who they can or cannot associate with...period. Freedom of association is one of the four fundamental freedoms enshrined in the Constitution Act of 1982.

I gave you the solution in my previous post. It's what every other company uses to good effect and there's no reason it wouldn't work for Westjet.
Rockie wrote: It means having strict policies against harassment, educating employees on what those harassment policies mean, properly investigating reported incidences of it and if necessary punishing those responsible.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

plhought wrote:They've discovered the only solution is to get the creeps out. Period.
Hey! I've got a much better solution! I can't believe you didn't think of it! All they have to do is put "no creeps" in the job ad, and not employ creeps in the first place! Problem solved! :face palm:
Rockie wrote:That kind of policy is draconian and illegal Photofly, you can't tell people who they can or cannot associate with...period. Freedom of association is one of the four fundamental freedoms enshrined in the Constitution Act of 1982.
Of course you can, if the company is paying for the hotel room. Go f*ck on your own dime, in your own room. if you stay in mine your dick stays solo. I'd love to see a "constitutional challenge" to such a reasonable anti-harassment policy.
Rockie wrote: It means having strict policies against harassment, educating employees on what those harassment policies mean, properly investigating reported incidences of it and if necessary punishing those responsible.
You're a good politician. Easy words, great soundbites, but no content.
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