Beaver down off Saturna island (Updates)

[viccoastdog]

Did I hear Yearwood correctly? All loss of life was the result of drowning?

I don't think I saw that mentioned. Did I miss it somewhere?

[Pratt]

Did I hear Yearwood correctly? All loss of life was the result of drowning?

I don't think I saw that mentioned. Did I miss it somewhere?

I just saw the news, Yearwood implied that was the case. The report doesn't come right out and say it either but it does imply that was the case, saying 5 pax that they found in the cabin had their seatbelts released.

[Widow]

I recorded it. Yearwood's exact words: "All of those who suffered loss of life in this accident drowned."

[viccoastdog]

I recorded it. Yearwood's exact words: "All of those who suffered loss of life in this accident drowned."

OK, thanks. I didn't see it on the news.

[Widow]

Here is the clip I recorded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS4wFASswaw

I'm curious ... since this accident appears not to have been the result of mechanical failure, and the objective should be to prevent the accident first, and improve survivability second (IMHO of course), why is there no mention in the TSB release of the 1993 Safety Study of Piloting Skills, Abilities, and Knowledge in Seaplane Operations?

I don't remember ever having discussion about what happened with the recommendations made in this study ... and there are no TC responses anywhere.

[Cat Driver]

These accidents usually have other contributing factors that trigger the a decision making process.

One trigger can be anxiety over running out of time to complete a flight before darkness.

Which can be exasperated by the problem of what to do with your passengers if you cancel the flight.

[HS-748 2A]

One trigger can be anxiety over running out of time to complete a flight before darkness.

Another one can be scrambling to try to get the day's work done before the end of the duty-day. I've seen lots of rammy things done to make sure an A/C didn't R.O.N.

Kind of contradictory to the purpose of "duty day" limitations isnt' it?

'48

[Dust Devil]

One trigger can be anxiety over running out of time to complete a flight before darkness.

Another one can be scrambling to try to get the day's work done before the end of the duty-day. I've seen lots of rammy things done to make sure an A/C didn't R.O.N.

Kind of contradictory to the purpose of "duty day" limitations isnt' it?

'48

That's what you get with over regulation. Regulation frequently gets in the way of common sense.

[X Driver]

One of the things that comes to mind from my days as a coast dog is when the wind reaches 30 that was when you really started watching where you were operating out of. Unfortunately you can land a lot of places that are very tough to take off from again especially with a load. And as someone above said there may be better equipment available to do the job, but at higher cost. A 680 hp Turbo Beaver on 4930 floats has pretty good climb performance, but costly to operate on Gulf Island Skeds. As Cat and some others have said many are the things that could be changed, but every thing comes at a cost and companies are trying to be compedative.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Dead passengers of sufficent number and importance + National news coverage + an allready well documented problem (lack of emerg door jettison system) = Standby for TC panic rule making.

[flyinthebug]

These accidents usually have other contributing factors that trigger the a decision making process.

One trigger can be anxiety over running out of time to complete a flight before darkness.

Which can be exasperated by the problem of what to do with your passengers if you cancel the flight.

Well said Cat. I hope that at very least we can start to alleviate some of these stresses just by THINKING of the outcome of this and other "pressured flights". Im sure if he had it to do over, the stress of where his pax would sleep that evening would be the very LEAST of his concerns. Its funny (odd) how everything is relative. If this flight had been cancelled til morning, there would be 6 people here now that arent. Id rather live with 6 pissed off pax then 6 dead ones. With Yearwood assuring us they all survived the crash and undid their belts...It may finally come to light that this kind of accident needs to STOP! Quick release doors will be TC`s knee jerk reaction to this accident.. but what will they REALLY do about it?..........
Next time your pushed for time, wx is closing in, daylight is fading and your rushed and uncomfortable.. PLEASE think of the outcome of this flight before you jump in your saddle and pump that throttle! It could just save your life and your passengers! We are paid to make these kinds of decisions everyday, lets start making the right ones, EVERYTIME!

Fly safe all.

[Cat Driver]

flyinthebug I walk a very thin line when I comment on these accidents, especially accidents that have yet to have the final cause report issued.

I also know a lot of the owners and some of the pilots who have been around for a long time.

I have to be careful of being accused of liable should I word something in the wrong way, in this thread I feel confident that my comments are generic and can be related to how things are here on the west coast where the conditions can vary vastly from one area to another and we fly sea planes year round, thus the problems with not only weather but scheduling flights to take into consideration the short daylight hours.

Rules and regulations are not always the best yardstick of what is prudent or even safe sometimes, the legal description of dark is a very good example of this.

As I recall you are legal to fly VFR under daylight rules until the center of the disk of the sun is six degrees below the horizon or something close to that.

Out here on the coast it can be dark long before the sun sets due to a low overcast with rain falling from a very thick cloud layer with random fog patches, made even worse by the high mountains in a lot of areas.

Thus the intense pressure pilots sometimes face trying to get back to home base.

There is a way to improve this situation somewhat, however I have not seen the industry get their heads together and agree to co-operating with each other to remove the competition factor which would be a step in the right direction.

There let them try and sue me for saying that.

[snoopy]

Yes Cat, and this is where company culture needs to change, in that it should support the pilot and good pilot decision making. Planning scheduled flights to the tight tolerances of legal twilight, encourages the problems previously described in this thread to develop into accidents.

It knowingly puts the pilot in a situation of rushing, and does not allow for good decision making - such as taxiing for calmer water and/or an into wind departure; taxiing for an optimal obstacle vs. prevailing wind departure; properly warming up a radial engine in winter conditions; waiting for other water traffic to clear the departure path; properly assessing questionable weather conditions enroute and/or at the destination before departure; dealing with a darker than normal day (due wx)...etc..... there is simply no time for any of that. Such a flight schedule sets the pilot up for failure from the get/go.

Of course the pilot has the ultimate say - however a "good" company would create a supportive flight schedule, with a tolerance for pilot decision making, good airmanship and headwinds built in.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[beechnut]

FLYTHEBUG
Give your head a shake .I really think you are so very wrong in calling QUICK RELEASES on the doors of a Beaver is a KNEE JERK REACTION. I have been flying these aircraft for over 30 years now and it really pisses me off to look at the brackets that are still in place on some of these airplanes that have been disabled because they were only used on the Military machines. We have always needed these in service I think the push should be to get this door issue rectified here and now.I'm quite sure that Sealand or any other AMO could come up with a relatively easy and quick fix.
Float planes are going to flip over occasionally and each and everyone in those airplanes deserve a chance at getting out and a jettisoned main door on the Beaver would be a great start in a panic situation. The door handle location is also a big problem on the main doors as well.
I have finished my rant for the morning
Beechnut

[Cat Driver]

Of course the pilot has the ultimate say - however a "good" company would create a supportive flight schedule, with a tolerance for pilot decision making, good airmanship and headwinds built in.

And once again allow me to suggest that is where an association of workers in the industry could support each other across company lines and politics by watching dangerous trends and using peer pressure to start to try and change how things are done.

The companies will never do that and the regulator long ago lost interest in the subject.

[snoopy]

Cat, you well know I would support such an association, providing it included and supported all players in the industry - not just pilots.

However I think it is far too easy for the average Joe/Jane pilot/mechanic/etc. to hope that some miracle organization will come along to solve all their problems and implement world peace.

I believe people need to shed their fears and have the courage to stand up for themselves. Get their hands dirty and maybe bleed a little - invest something of themselves by being part of the solution, not part of the problem. I also believe that when more people show this courage, it will inspire others and an association of like-minded people will naturally develop in its own good time. Such an organization formed in this way, would have a better chance of success, because it would be self-sustaining - all interested parties would in some way have contributed to its existence.

With the present mindset, it is easier for people to stand by and do nothing. Or to help ostracize others in order to deflect attention from themselves in order that they don't stand out in a crowd and become ostracized. I think this behavior is called self-preservation? Or is it kill or be killed?

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[flyinthebug]

FLYTHEBUG
Give your head a shake .I really think you are so very wrong in calling QUICK RELEASES on the doors of a Beaver is a KNEE JERK REACTION. I have been flying these aircraft for over 30 years now and it really pisses me off to look at the brackets that are still in place on some of these airplanes that have been disabled because they were only used on the Military machines. We have always needed these in service I think the push should be to get this door issue rectified here and now.I'm quite sure that Sealand or any other AMO could come up with a relatively easy and quick fix.
Float planes are going to flip over occasionally and each and everyone in those airplanes deserve a chance at getting out and a jettisoned main door on the Beaver would be a great start in a panic situation. The door handle location is also a big problem on the main doors as well.
I have finished my rant for the morning
Beechnut

Beechnut... I was referring to TC`s "knee jerk" reactions to everything they do...not that quick release doors would be a bad thing! I too have a couple hours on the -2 and I also realize they have needed quick release doors for a very LONG time now. TC will now, finally, listen to what pilots and people in general in aviation have been telling them for years. Its too bad it takes a tragic accident like this before they start to listen and ACT. I meant no disrespect to the families, friends & people directly involved in this accident. As Cat pointed out, its a fine line we walk when we comment on an accident that has yet to be determined for cause. Just know that I agree about quick release doors.. I was only questioning what TC would or will do about it, and how or IF at all.

[xsbank]

Didn't the accident report say that 2 doors were jammed by the crash forces? Pulling the pins out of the door hinges, wouldn't that still leave you with jammed doors due to a warped frame? As I recall, the doors fit inside the frame....

I hesitate to comment further on this accident as all the warnings I can remember from my early career as a float pilot are banging around in my head. One of the huge advantages of a room in the back with a beer fridge.

Stay safe out there, remember "skin, tin, ticket."

[Widow]

xsbank, yes, that is what Yearwood said. Doors becoming jammed on impact is one reason why pop out windows may be a better solution. It is also the reason egress trainers teach you to get the doors unlatched before impact - if you have the time. This is something that should be included in a pre-flight briefing, IMHO. There was earlier discussion about making the door handles easier to locate/use ... it looks like Kenmore down in Washington is working on a mod. http://www.king5.com/news/business/Wash ... 81122.html

It is interesting to me to note that on AQW, the co-pilot door was actually jammed open - which would indicate that occupant was prepared for a hard landing and knew about the doors. For those who don't remember, or aren't familiar with the case (A05P0039 - don't bother looking on the TSB site, it doesn't exist there), all five occupants escaped the aircraft - without taking a single life jacket. In this most recent tragedy, I think it very unlikely that the two survivors would have survived had this not taken place so publically and with such a quick response.

[snoopy]

"It is interesting to me to note that on AQW, the co-pilot door was actually jammed open - which would indicate that occupant was prepared for a hard landing and knew about the doors."

Possibly, but it is also worth noting that those front doors are notorious for popping open in flight - it is possible an impact could have that effect as well. Just saying this is also a possibility...

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Widow]

Possibly, but the conclusion (from all parties) was that AQW was not a very hard landing - most of the damage was on rollover, not on impact. There was no jamming, open or closed, of any other door.

[Sidebar]

I'm curious ... since this accident appears not to have been the result of mechanical failure, and the objective should be to prevent the accident first, and improve survivability second (IMHO of course), why is there no mention in the TSB release of the 1993 Safety Study of Piloting Skills, Abilities, and Knowledge in Seaplane Operations?

Widow, it appears their focus is likely to be survivability, as they they do mention "A SAFETY STUDY OF SURVIVABILITY IN SEAPLANE ACCIDENTS", Report Number SA9401

This news release, the photo gallery, and previously published material (Safety Study SA9401 and TSB Report A04W0114) can be found on the TSB website at http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca.

[Lost Lake]

As I recall you are legal to fly VFR under daylight rules until the center of the disk of the sun is six degrees below the horizon or something close to that.

Just for information purposes, they have amended the definition to "twighlight". Open to interpretation. With GPS on most planes, one of the features is actual sunset at a selected point. Your operator and TC will know exactly when this is. For operators, it is a way to squeeze 1 more flight from you, relying on the "official" sunset/rise as proof they used due diligence.

Been there, seen that!

[Cat Driver]

If you can't see because it is to dark " official darkness " is meaningless.

[pilotidentity]

If the conditions are right you could find yourself landing 20 minutes before legal grounding time and not be able to make out logs and sticks in the water. Add a light drizzle in there with no wind and things get pretty grey.

I feel if you make it a rule to be back home and landing at SUNSET then at least if you have an engine failure or other problem (poor weather at the destination) then you aren't dealing with darkness as well. You might have a chance to see a safer spot to put down close to shore, and if response time is quick an aircraft already airborne and on your route (good chance on the coast) could perhaps have enough light to spot you.

Hate to have something go wrong 10 minutes before "official" darkness.

There is very little risk in the nice warm seat of a dispatcher.