Buttonville Airport . . . CYKZ

[Truthteller]

Depending how far out you go, land gets cheap. But I'm not going to try and come up with a business model or justification for a GA airport. If you can't make money running one, then why should anyone build one to lose money? If somebody wants to fly, they need to pay to play. Pay enough so that the airport makes their fair share and has reason to keep the doors open. As for CYKZ, they claimed to be moving on because they lost the GTAA kickback and couldn't make money. The kickback was in the order of a million or so. i.e. chump change. If the airport is being run on such a shoestring that it can't survive losing that kind of money, then the owners were idiots for sitting on such a goldmine of land playing around with a million here and there for profit.

As to development around an aerodrome, there are recommendations that Transport Canada spells out as to the appropriate developments allowed within certain radii of an airport. They are not regulations, which is the problem. If they were, no one would be having problems. But TC doesn't have the gumption to make it happen. This allows local government to build up around an aerodrome as they want. Markham is a great example. This is why anyone who builds a new airport would need to have some sort of agreement with the local government to prevent certain development nearby. It can happen very easily via zoning which is locally controlled.

Truthteller, ok not to be flippant, but there is not a "simple" solution and you are missing a point I made earlier.

You stated the solution is to find land "just outside any major developments. Here the land is cheap and there are no residential concerns (noise/safety)."

Firstly, land JUST outside major developments is still expensive to purchase! And on top of that, requires hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop into an aerodrome. The market value of land is priced to assume that the trend of urban sprawl will continue, and so even though its undeveloped, it is still expensive.
see MLS#: N1926969
Priced at $3.6M.

Additionally, I dont think you get how little profit there is to be made running an airport RELATIVE TO OTHER INVESTMENTS. - this is key, RELATIVE TO OTHER INVESTMENTS.

Assume just for fun, YKZ is profitable as an airport although I'm sure you'll probably claim it isnt. Say the Sifton family makes $100,000 per year net income (after paying all taxes, expenses, maintenance etc). The fact that the airport is profitable is irrelevant because the land it sits on can be used for real estate development which is far far more profitable than (by comparison) charging a few hundred bucks here and there for landing and tie down fees. Not sure if you live near YKZ or not, but the mass of land it sits on can be turned into multiuse residential condos and office space worth in the 100's of millions of dollars. I'm not exaggerating on that number. As a real estate developer I would be happy to pay the Sifton's $50M for the land so I can develop it and sell it for a quarter BILLION... and the Siftons would be happy to get a cheque for $50M because their profitable airport is by comparison, a crappy investment. And dont tell me theres some way an airport can financially compete with private free market development. You think Markham council will stop them? Why would they? When they develop property, they collect incrementally more property taxes, which benefits the city, council etc.

Now, I think ive heard you claim YKZ is poorly run/not profitable etc.. Well then what would you propose to turn a profit? Double everyones tie down fees? Double the hanger fees? double the landing fees?? You will quickly lose all traffic as they will leave for somewhere cheaper. Then what??

No disrespect to you personally but I think your solution is far too simplisitc for the many aspects that are impacting GA, not only in the GTA, but in North America. Also, I think its ridiculous you think somehow a private landowner/airport owner can somehow stop other private interests from development around you as you suggest. Theres nothing practically or legally that would give a private airport owner the "right" to stop or inhibit private development around the airport, other than regulatory requirements relating to building heights.

You wrote: "airport needs to work with the local and federal politicians to ensure no development happens".... Um, why do you think federal politicians have a say in municipal land development? You think the feds care about municipal zoning!?

Finally, even if all that happens and you claim there will be no problem "any time soon". Well, what about in 20 years once urban sprawl is again, knocking at the airports door. What then do you propose?? Owners sell out, aviators pack up and move the show even further outside the GTA!? Simple or not, your solution doesnt sound sustainable to me and is only kicking the can down the road...

[Truthteller]

Welcome to the majority.

A letter that I've seen from Transport Canada (shown by a local councillor) indicates that the airport operator (in this case Derek Sifton) is responsible for issues concerning noise in the community. NAV Canada sets the flight paths. Transport Canada cares about safety. But both will respond to a request to a change in flight path if the airport operator and local government want it. This has already happened once in the past. But don't get your hopes up...so many people have a negative view of Buttonville Airport just because they claim to work with the community but in reality they could care less.

Buttonville, in consultation with Transport Canada with regards to noise abatement, two years ago have created north/south corridors along Woodbine Avenue to the north practice area and east corridor to the east practice area along the 407. (check out the latest Toronto TAC or the CFS, if you own one). Coming into Buttonville from the north and east, ATC reminds pilots to remain at 2000' ASL until entering the circuit, FYI. If you read the CFS, any takeoffs from Rwy 15 require minimum height of 1000' AGL before commencing any turns eastbound or westbound and right hand circuits. When leaving the runways, it is strongly recommended that flights climb to 2500' ASL to help in noise abatement. Further, while climbing to altitude, as a pilot you need high engine RPM to attain altitude. I think that Buttonville/TC have done what was necessary/required/requested by residents of the area. I lived for 10 years in Thornhill, and had more noise from trains than planes. Those who live nearby should understand this prior to purchasing a house near the airport, or better yet, sell their house to deaf people who the noise wouldn't bother. .

Hi I am new to this forum and was directed to it by a post on another forum. I am a Markham resident who lives in the old town of Markham around Hwy 48 between Hwy 7 and Bullock (south of 16th). I have lived here all my life and am a second generation in our approx 80 year old house. From what I’ve read I would say there is a lot of anger on the forum directed at the residents. I don’t understand the anger since the comments here have nothing to do with your airport closing, which is a decision that was made by the Sifton family. I have to tell KZCVTM that the airplanes do not travel along the 407 as you have stated but directly over our community (that predates Buttonville) and do so constantly. Today between 10am and 3pm there was one aircraft after another flying east-west (in both directions). If there really is a “corridor” along the 407 why are the pilots not following it? Today it was not just 1 or 2 but a constant stream, so I don’t think the pilots are following the “noise abatement” rules and air traffic control is not enforcing it.

I would like to hear from a reasonable person as I don’t want to be yelled at. Is there some one that we should call when we see flights not following the noise rules set by Transport Canada and Buttonville?

Please let me know.

Sarah.

[x15]

I can't stand aircraft at FL420, either.

There's nothing more that I hate more than aircraft at FL420, carnies and the Dutch.

+1 LOL

[Truthteller]

Hey Bizjets, are you sure Sarah23 isn't really MarkhamResident? After all, I'm supposed to be that person. So cut the bullshit. If you had zero anger directed at the residents of Markham, you wouldn't have been a total prick when I came on agreeing with some of those statements.

Sarah23,

Here are your contact numbers; http://www.markham.ca/Markham/Departmen ... leAirport/ .

Also to be clear, there was zero anger directed at the residents of Markham.

A recent poster using the name MarkhamResident - posted some very disrespectful posts regarding the recent Seneca College accident, as well as non-factual statements against the users of Buttonville airport.

He further plastered newpaper forums and other aviation sites as well as AvCanada with his rant - so I assure you absolutely nothing was directed at you, or your fellow residents.

[cdnpilot77]

For the Jenny number, is she at Transport Canada and is that a 1 800 number? Could you give me the full number?

I was pulling your leg, and it appears it came off in my hand.

Sounds like you were pulling more than just a leg

[LousyFisherman]

Please do not feed the trolls.

It is not their natural diet and they will have trouble surviving the winter.

LF

[dcabrown]

Depending how far out you go, land gets cheap. But I'm not going to try and come up with a business model or justification for a GA airport. If you can't make money running one, then why should anyone build one to lose money? If somebody wants to fly, they need to pay to play. Pay enough so that the airport makes their fair share and has reason to keep the doors open.

Again, Sir, you are missing my point! So I'll go over it once more so you understand,

- Running an airport well can only make $X Dollars
- Turning that same land into something else will make $100X Dollars

It doesnt matter how you run an airport. You could be the best owner and your airport at capacity and have $25 landings fees, and you STILL wont make as much money as other ventures can with the same land.

So how far out do you do then to the point where land is "cheap". So far out that there is no population within a reasonable distance to support the airport? Dont you see how your statements are contradictory?? The farther away you get from the population, the less people will fly out of the airport.

I'm not asking you to come up with business plans. I'm just asking you to admit that although an airport can be run profitably, there are other land uses that can make way more, and thats the problem.

And yes, looking strictly from an economic/investment standpoint, the Sifton's are nuts and were absolutely gracious enough to the GA community that they didnt sell out on that land sooner

So to recap,

- Running an airport well can only make $X Dollars
- Turning that same land into something else will make $100X Dollars

Make sense?

[bizjets101]

The funny part, is the only way Markham Airport is going to see the type of expansion that would be required to assume Buttonville's traffic - will require Provincial/Federal funding.

Nobody in there right mind is going to invest the kind of money required - especially with a lack of Return on Investment.

Without some sort of Government involvement - who is even going to build hangars and take on a 25 year mortgage - when the airport could still be shut down at any moment should any future Government decide to build on Pickering lands.

So I guess if MarkhamResident hated Sifton's getting public funding, wonder how he'll like it when the Thomson family get funding!!!!

On a side note, had to laugh at the wikileak leaks; Canada has blown what 18 billion on Afghanistan - and on wikileaks they had a report of a Afhganistan Government official caught departing the country with 52 million dollars on him - and they let him go - just made a report.

Talk about wasting your tax dollars!!! That was enough money to keep Buttonville going for another 34 years - instead of allowing some Afgan to live on the French Riviera.

[fleet16b]

As I have said in past replies, I think if the truth came out, there is a good chance that markhamresident is closely associated with Markham Airstrip and I think this is part of his hostility towards the Siftons etc
Again as I have said, if my suspicion about his identity is correct, it explains much about his antagonostic ways.
Would love to out him but don't trust his reaction.

I wholly agree that the only way Markham will expand is with Gov funding and anything is possible but I still don't think thats what the owners are up to.
Have the owners ever come right out and said they are going to expand Markham and turn it into a major Airport ? Has anyone ever seen a planned layout of the expansion ? Not that I have ever heard or seen. As for the Thompson Corp itself, to my knowledge has they have never stated this
If I am wrong and there is a public statement and planned layout, please post them here so we can all see.
Sure some minor underlings looking after things for the owners have implied this but even they go only so far and do not provide any solid details etc .
These are just the same old pipedreams that have come out of there for years.... Blah Blah Blah

[sarah23]

Sarah23,
Here are your contact numbers; http://www.markham.ca/Markham/Departmen ... leAirport/ .

Bizjets101 or anyone could you confirm what kzcvtm said:

Buttonville, in consultation with Transport Canada with regards to noise abatement, two years ago have created north/south corridors along Woodbine Avenue to the north practice area and east corridor to the east practice area along the 407. (check out the latest Toronto TAC or the CFS, if you own one). Coming into Buttonville from the north and east, ATC reminds pilots to remain at 2000' ASL until entering the circuit, FYI. If you read the CFS, any takeoffs from Rwy 15 require minimum height of 1000' AGL before commencing any turns eastbound or westbound and right hand circuits. When leaving the runways, it is strongly recommended that flights climb to 2500' ASL to help in noise abatement.

Or is what Truthteller says right. It is pointless to call if kzcvtm is wrong.

[sarah23]

Concerning the finance of why build an airport, since I am in real estate, when you get classification as an airport you become exempt from local property taxes, that is a pretty big incentive when taxes are presently 2.141668%?

http://www.markham.ca/Markham/Departmen ... /TaxRates/

If your property is valued at $150,000,000 in 2010 then that works out $3,212,502 / year as you run your business. In real terms (bringing all that money forward to 2010 with interest) you can multiply this by the number of past years to get an idea of how much you can save, this certainly does add up over the years.

But gentlemen, back to my question, could some answer if what kzcvtm said is true?

[sarah23]

I have had an honest email concerning the 407 east/west corridor, that refutes what was posted by kzcvtm which was rather obvious to me since on a daily basis plane are flying east/west over Old Markham / Unionville, and as previously stated predates the Buttonville Airport. Too bad that you don't use the 407 as a corridor since this would go a long way to reduce the irritation and animosity the residents feel concerning the Buttonville Airport, and would go a long way to promote a support for aviation in our community and possibly Pickering.

[B and B]

Sarah,

I regularly fly into Buttonville arriving from the East and almost invariably am instructed by the tower "to report 3 miles East" which puts me overhead Unionville at 2,000' ASL or 1,400' above ground. At that point I am cleared to the circuit and immediately descend to 1000' above ground. I have never heard of a procedure or have received any instruction relative to following the 407 although now that you bring it up it's not a bad idea. My understanding is that any noise abatement procedure is the responsibility of the airport operator.

Hope that helps.

[bizjets101]

You can listen to Buttonville ATC here; http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=cykz

TAL noise abatement; http://airport.torontoairways.com/ap-co ... gement.php

[albertdesalvo]

@Sarah:

Do you know what a sockpuppet is?

[bizjets101]

That was actually my first thought.

I was attempting to be polite, in reality, how can you whine about an airport for 50 years without a clue to call your local council person, or the airport yourself!!!

A simple call to Toronto Airways and the phone call would have been redirected. You drive by the airport for 50 years and you never think of stopping to ask a question?

Buttonville has been in the news for good and bad, so many times - with the Sifton's name, Toronto Airways name, the reporters name, the papers name!!!

Suddenly MarkhamResident appears out of the blue, followed by Truthteller, and Sarah23.

Here's a nice shot of a Buttonville departure . . . just to make you feel comfortable while we're flying over your house

C-GMHU.jpg (72.85 KiB) Viewed 5348 times

airliners.net
TSB report

[fleet16b]

LOL
....good old MHU ..... I use to maintain her when she was at Burlington Air Park years ago.
Flew her once to the Geneseo Airshow in 1985.
She was the first C172 I ever flew

[Truthteller]

Class act dude. You start whining and moaning that people are insensitive to crashes and then you wonder why with responses like this? Maybe I should photoshop a Seneca logo on that plane and then sit back and watch you all get your underwear in a knot.

I don't know why you would bring this up because it only shows how you guys don't care about safety at all and have no remorse for those who died or got hurt. At the end of the day, the plane and the pilot look like they took the worst of that crash. Same with all the others recently. So if you really are a pilot, I wonder why you would bring this up. Feel free to crash into a house or building next time you're flying (if you do fly that is) and see what happens moron. You might want to aim for your hangar. Or maybe all you do is gas up the planes and call yourself a pilot.

That was actually my first thought.

I was attempting to be polite, in reality, how can you whine about an airport for 50 years without a clue to call your local council person, or the airport yourself!!!

A simple call to Toronto Airways and the phone call would have been redirected. You drive by the airport for 50 years and you never think of stopping to ask a question?

Buttonville has been in the news for good and bad, so many times - with the Sifton's name, Toronto Airways name, the reporters name, the papers name!!!

Suddenly MarkhamResident appears out of the blue, followed by Truthteller, and Sarah23.

Here's a nice shot of a Buttonville departure . . . just to make you feel comfortable while we're flying over your house

C-GMHU.jpg

airliners.net
TSB report

[sarah23]

I am not whining, I only joined this forum to ask the question that was raised by KZCVTM about Noise Abatement since my investigations and communication over the years have borne no positive results (Councillors, Mayor, Buttonville Airport Community Committee, etc). Most responses from this forum have been positive, but some are extremely negative and disturbing, and unfortunately put a very bad light on the Buttonville Airport and its pilots. I was directed to this forum from a group wanting to stop the Pickering Airport:

http://www.vocalvoice.ca/home.html

Someone emailed me the link stating "if you think these pilots are well balanced professional people, then read what they say". This group is well orchestrated and working hard to stop Pickering and further close Buttonville as soon as possible, since they see the Sifton Family as a threat in building Pickering.

One PM I received (that PM started with “As an air traffic controller…” I won’t say more) stated how easy it would be for a pilot to follow KZCVTM suggestion, but since it is left voluntary by the airport operator, many pilots choose not. S/he states that such an approach would only require a slight change to the south, and since ATC only requires you to report 3 miles east of the airport, it would not require any changes in charts, plates, etc, which would be pointless now with 4-5 years left before Buttonville closes.

From this forum I think it is clear that you as pilots of Buttonville, are hoping that a new home is created/built for you in Pickering when Buttonville closes. If this is true, and you choose to fly over peoples homes (even if they predate the airport), and do so when an alternative exists, and post pictures of your accidents into people homes and laugh about it, I would have to say that you are your own worst enemy. If there are any reasonable well balanced thoughtful pilots at Buttonville, then you should be more actively trying to change the other pilots' perspectives, since I would say the future of aviation in Markham may lie in balance, as many people like myself are reading what is written here (in this publicly open forum). I hope you consider this, and your flights to and from the east; it would go a long way in improving your image. As an aside, I am also surprised (as you must be) that the Sifton Family did not implemented this requirement to follow the east 407 approach and departure considering their dream of building a legacy airport to honour their late Michael Sifton.

[albertdesalvo]

Truth posts at 2110Z, Sarah posts at 2112Z. Geeee....

[Truthteller]

These clowns haven't got a future and they know it. Pickering isn't going to be built for them. And their commentary here is just sealing that deal.

The people against Pickering are very strong. Their council is behind them and in time of a minority government it's too much of a political grenade for federal government to press for any development there.

The Siftons are going to give them the shaft. In fact, have already given them the shaft. Keep working for them until the place implodes then join the unemployment line. Dayment was the only semi-smart one. Over 25 years working there and then he magically disappears.

Markham airport isn't going anywhere soon. The Siftons aren't going to work with them to make a decent airport because they hate each other. The government will not pump money into the place because it's privately owned, just like Buttonville. Markham council is against it. The Thompsons would be idiots to use that land as an airport and I'd hazard to guess they aren't that foolish.

So where does that leave these peons...no where. Displaced and SOL. Exactly where they deserve to be.

By the way, don't expect an answer to your question.

I am not whining, I only joined this forum to ask the question that was raised by KZCVTM about Noise Abatement since my investigations and communication over the years have borne no positive results (Councillors, Mayor, Buttonville Airport Community Committee, etc). Most responses from this forum have been positive, but some are extremely negative and disturbing, and unfortunately put a very bad light on the Buttonville Airport and its pilots. I was directed to this forum from a group wanting to stop the Pickering Airport:

http://www.vocalvoice.ca/home.html

Someone emailed me the link stating "if you think these pilots are well balanced professional people, then read what they say". This group is well orchestrated and working hard to stop Pickering and further close Buttonville as soon as possible, since they see the Sifton Family as a threat in building Pickering.

One PM I received (that PM started with “As an air traffic controller…” I won’t say more) stated how easy it would be for a pilot to follow KZCVTM suggestion, but since it is left voluntary by the airport operator, many pilots choose not. S/he states that such an approach would only require a slight change to the south, and since ATC only requires you to report 3 miles east of the airport, it would not require any changes in charts, plates, etc, which would be pointless now with 4-5 years left before Buttonville closes.

From this forum I think it is clear that you as pilots of Buttonville, are hoping that a new home is created/built for you in Pickering when Buttonville closes. If this is true, and you choose to fly over peoples homes (even if they predate the airport), and do so when an alternative exists, and post pictures of your accidents into people homes and laugh about it, I would have to say that you are your own worst enemy. If there are any reasonable well balanced thoughtful pilots at Buttonville, then you should be more actively trying to change the other pilots' perspectives, since I would say the future of aviation in Markham may lie in balance, as many people like myself are reading what is written here (in this publicly open forum). I hope you consider this, and your flights to and from the east; it would go a long way in improving your image. As an aside, I am also surprised (as you must be) that the Sifton Family did not implemented this requirement to follow the east 407 approach and departure considering their dream of building a legacy airport to honour their late Michael Sifton.

[Truthteller]

Truth posts at 2110Z, Sarah posts at 2112Z. Geeee....

Here we go again. Maybe albertdeslavo, bizjets101 and KZwhatever are the same people?

[fleet16b]

Truth posts at 2110Z, Sarah posts at 2112Z. Geeee....

Looks like a gotcha

[bizjets101]

I hear truthteller's name is Pete and he likes Jack Rabbit Light Beer!!!

click

[fleet16b]

Markham airport isn't going anywhere soon. The Thompsons would be idiots to use that land as an airport and I'd hazard to guess they aren't that foolish.

As I have stated all along !