Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

[Troubleshot]

I don't buy the "Sunwing is growing" defense. Why is it fair that Transat has grown its Company by employing Canadians and Sunwing can use foreign workers to grow its business? If Sunwing's business model is based on using foreign labour because they are only busy 4 months of the year then they need to re-think their operation. Straight-up, they have the wrong aircraft type for year-round operations. The 737-800 is a damn good aircraft and is ETOPs capable but lets be realistic they cannot use this aircraft type to have a summer operation (i.e fly to Europe, etc..)

If Sunwing had a fleet of 767, 757, A330, etc..they could hire all their own pilots and employ them year round, expand the business to summer charter as well. I know it is not as cut and dry as that, but you get where I am going with this. Transat have the right fleet for a year round charter organization, Sunwing do not.

So I say, lets level the playing field. No more foreign pilots and force Sunwing to adapt to running a year-round airline like Transat does.

[florch]

I think 1-1 can still work as long as it doesn't get ruined by shenanigans.

It's fair, more net Canadian jobs in every profession, serves the public...

I think this is the fair middle ground that Gilles and many other moderate folks on here are advocating amidst all the noise. Maybe it's good that we get this worked out once and for all at the Sunwing level - can you imagine if this were happening on an Air Canada size scale?

[FICU]

Just as an aside,you certainly seem to want to have a say in what Sunwing does.

I don't think you get it... we all want to have a say in what the government does to protect present and future Canadian jobs.

[mbav8r]

Now, we have an appeal to every navajo driver in Canada...Foreigners are taking your jobs!
Write the prime minister! Sign petitions...Contact you MP. It is all about Canadian jobs.....The government is allowing this to happen...Sleazeball government...
I have yet to see one..One ..Poster ask why if it is all so bad is Sunwings allowed to proceed. Well the fact is if you can get by the emotions and think a bit , maybe, just maybe, the "facts" being presented here are a bit biased.

The fact is most pilots in my opinion have very little understanding of the business end of the airline business, and it seems nowadays no interest much outside their own career advancement..That may be unfair, but no one is critically asking questions here.. They are just accepting what they are told in blind faith.( or as less diplomatic posters would put it...drinking the kool aid) .I have read posts saying what Sunwing is doing is illegal..It is not. That Sunwing is doing an end run..That the government is variously doing nothing, or allowing them to do it...It just is not so.. And if one actually looks at the numbers, the training costs would not make it viable at this stage to train seasonal Canadian pilots...But for every pilot there are many others who have jobs in Canada as a result of this business model

Trey,
Gilles has painstakingly posted rules and regulations that have been overlooked by many layers of government and regulators, you seem to be blind to those FACTS, because as you've stated you can't be biased as an expat.
Again it has been said many times, if an economic advantage for Sunwing causes a loss of higher paying jobs elsewhere, is it good for Canadians? Or are you blind to that fact?
I'm a not a Navajo pilot, have not been for many years and if you think Sunwing had nothing to do with the loss of the Thomas Cook 57s at Jazz, you might be blind to that fact. Although not a loss of jobs, the hiring program was halted due to this and stagnated many in the pool, so yah Navajo pilots should be upset.
Finally have you watched the senate hearing? I suggest you do, you might be surprised to learn the government has agreed, this is wrong but were convinced it was too late to stop it this year, expect changes for next year, unfortunately the damage is most likely already done.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

60N30W.

One more thing, do you have any documentation about this?

true statement, if you can find it. I believe that it was a complaint filed with the CTA or maybe another agency (not sure what year). But it did happen.

Biff,

You can question my opinion all day long, it doesn't change a thing. I know where I stand on this issue and I have more to lose than you do. Keep picking away my friend...
Are you on here just to defend your friend or actually contribute to the conversation on this subject. Please enlighten us.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Troubleshot,

Transat have the right fleet for a year round charter organization, Sunwing do not.

I really think they don't have the proper year round fleet. This is a big reason they have Canjet in the picture.

If Sunwing's business model is based on using foreign labor because they are only busy 4 months of the year then they need to re-think their operation. Straight-up, they have the wrong aircraft type for year-round operations.

This is the best airplane on the market for a Vacation airline, hands down. Its a money making machine. Summer operations don't have to include Europe. Many other opportunities for 738 Summer flying. A lot of it boils down to financial risk. This is a much more complex and company specific discussion.

[Troubleshot]

I agree with you that the 737 is a good charter machine, no question. It boils down to utilization, and lets be honest Sunwing does not utilize their fleet year round in the charter market, sure they have a few one-offs but it is a far cry from a full scale operation in the summer. The bigger piece of the pie is overseas in the summer months and the 737 is not the metal for the job. You are correct in saying that risk management is required in Sunwings case as far as going overseas but if your airline success depends on using foreign workers because your business plan has major holes in it...why bother?

Take away foreign pilots from Sunwing...what do see happening to this company? my guess is folding like a lawn chair. Take away CanJet from Transat...what do see happening to this company?...I say they do just fine.

that is my take anyway...

[ea306]

Not to rub salt.... But the B737-800 is a money maker for Sunwing.

Below is a link to TUi 2012 financials


http://www.tui-group.com/dms/ir/01_01_i ... 04_ttp.pdf

Noteworthy is page 8&9 of this report.

Quote:

Canada
The strategic venture with Sunwing in Canada continues to perform well, delivering an improved operating profit of £21m (2011: £18m). The result was driven by a strong trading performance, as a result of improved margins and volumes during the period.

This is the 49% shareholders portion of the total profit for the organization.

My guess is that the bottom line will not be negatively impacted by hiring more Canadian pilots. Hopefully profitable growth in a summer program will be realized utilizing the B737-800 even more in 2013 and the Sunwing pilot ranks will continue to grow year round.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Someone informed me that 68 Sunwing Foreign pilots were refused work permits by CIC because their application wrongly stated that Sunwing's pilots were not represented by a Union.

It seems that the other pilots are flying over 100 hours to cover for those that are missing.....

[morningwood]

Yes, that's right Gilles, although I think that the numbers were just a few less than what you stated.
I'm not privy as to the reasons why they were denied, but as far as I know, the work permits have now been approved.
I was under the impression that the pilots union would have some say in the matter, but apparently this is clearly not the case.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The Sunwing fleet now stands at 27 aircraft:
The 10 core aircraft
The 14 short term dry leases
The 3 wet-leases

[morningwood]

The dry lease aircraft are all Canadian registered aircraft and mainly flown by Canadian pilots.
Sunwing deployed 4 wet lease aircraft with crews to Europe in the summer of 2012 which equates to approximately 70 pilots, including pilots on short term deployment to cover vacation and training, etc.
In addition to this, Sunwing also operates aircraft and crews out of the U.S. for Vacation Express on a year round basis.
The entire winter fleet operates an average of 17 flight hrs per day, 7 days a week, and with a fleet of this size there are always 1 or 2 aircraft in maintenance for scheduled line maintenance, heavy checks etc. plus one standby aircraft which brings the daily operational fleet to 24 aircraft.
We can safely assume that the wet lease aircraft cannot operate 24/7 without maintenance, and this would bring the number of wet lease aircraft operating to 2.7 wet lease aircraft operating per month.
The wet lease foreign pilots do not stay in Canada to operate for five or six consecutive months, but rotate out on a 3 or 6 week basis.
This would bring the number of wet lease foreign pilots work permits required from 42 ( at 7 crew per aircraft ) to as high as 70 or 80 foreign pilot work permits required to operate the 3 wet lease aircraft.
We all want to see a reasonably equal 1:1 reciprocal arrangement, but as you can see simply counting the number of tails does not give an accurate representation of the number of foreign pilots vs the number of Canadian pilots.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The dry lease aircraft are all Canadian registered aircraft and mainly flown by Canadian pilots.
Sunwing deployed 4 wet lease aircraft with crews to Europe in the summer of 2012 which equates to approximately 70 pilots, including pilots on short term deployment to cover vacation and training, etc.
In addition to this, Sunwing also operates aircraft and crews out of the U.S. for Vacation Express on a year round basis.
The entire winter fleet operates an average of 17 flight hrs per day, 7 days a week, and with a fleet of this size there are always 1 or 2 aircraft in maintenance for scheduled line maintenance, heavy checks etc. plus one standby aircraft which brings the daily operational fleet to 24 aircraft.
We can safely assume that the wet lease aircraft cannot operate 24/7 without maintenance, and this would bring the number of wet lease aircraft operating to 2.7 wet lease aircraft operating per month.
The wet lease foreign pilots do not stay in Canada to operate for five or six consecutive months, but rotate out on a 3 or 6 week basis.
This would bring the number of wet lease foreign pilots work permits required from 42 ( at 7 crew per aircraft ) to as high as 70 or 80 foreign pilot work permits required to operate the 3 wet lease aircraft.
We all want to see a reasonably equal 1:1 reciprocal arrangement, but as you can see simply counting the number of tails does not give an accurate representation of the number of foreign pilots vs the number of Canadian pilots.

With all due respect, let's stick to truth and honesty and especially clarity. I am trying to have people understand what is really happening while others strive to conceal it.

Sunwing only employs 170 Canadian pilots. There are 24 aircraft to fly.

In addition to those foreign pilots flying the dry-leases, are the wet-lease pilots who are also 7 crews per aircraft. Sunwing wet-leased 4 B-737s. 4 x 14 = 56.

Then let's not forget the 28 foreign pilots that flew the 767s in the summer.

The wet-lease pilots do not require work permits to fly in Canada. Only the dry-lease pilots do. So when we talk of pilot work permits, we only talk of the ones flying the dry-leases, and they do not rotate. Only the wet-lease pilots do. So the number of work permits are in no way inflated by rotating pilots as you insinuate.

If, instead of sending 40 pilots to Europe for 6 months, you send 120 pilots who each spend 2 months instead of 6, you only created work for 40 pilots, not 120.
Knowing how many crews it takes to keep an aircraft flying 17 hours a day, 7 days a week, it's easy to determine how many pilots Sunwing sent to Europe to keep 4 aircraft in the air. Of course Immigration Canada does not know this. But we do. And I did my best to inform them.

The fact that aircraft are down for maintenance are compensated by pilots that are off duty, on sick leave, on vacation, on training etc. None of this changes the number of crews that are required to keep one aircraft in the air.

If one needs 7 crews per aircraft, one needs 7 crews per aircraft with aircraft maintenance and crew rostering elements factored in.

That is why Sunwing does not like it when I count airframes instead of pilots. It clears the waters too much.

[trey kule]

With all due respect, let's stick to truth and honesty and especially clarity

Good point. Something to repeat while looking in the mirror in the morning.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

With all due respect, let's stick to truth and honesty and especially clarity

Good point. Something to repeat while looking in the mirror in the morning.

Stick to your game plan, it's obviously working:

1) always question the message, but avoid discussing it.
2) attack the messenger

Everyone here obviously falls for it. We are all stupid.

[trey kule]

Wow, someone took his cranky pill this morning.

Actually, I believe that most people on here are pretty smart, and eventually see the truth in things.
But,in the short term someone can stir up their emotions and have them act without thinking.
To quote wise king Julian again..."hurry, before we all come to our senses"

Foreign pilots, I think, are a fact of life here for awhile until our domestic companies grow large enough to support year round fleets. Nothing more complicated in my philosophy than that.

It becomes very emotional if you have a personal stake in this, as in losing your job, or advancing your career, and as such, tend not to look at the global picture, but only at what is best for yourself and your friends..Fair enough, but where the water gets a bit muddy is when someone champions themselves as the defender of all pilots when, in fact, they are only concerned about a small minority of them, and if they cause other companies pilots to be laid off..well, that is not their concern.

I dont think anyone questions all the effort you have put into your cause...But perhaps the effort was not for the right reasons (as opposed to the ones stated) and all the effort was simply in vain as it was directed at people, agencies, departments that do look at a bit larger picture of the industry, and see it a bit differently than you do.

Sometimes it is good to step back a bit and question our objectives and perceptions.

You asked a question on a different thread..What now? Maybe its time for AT to recognize that most of the other carriers are doing the same thing, and try and adapt their business plan to use what seems to be a rather successful model....

As far as pilots go...Companies are primarily responsable to their shareholders..Not their pilots. Pilots are employees. Not entitltled special folk. If companies can find a cheaper way to do business they will.

As far as attacking the messanger..Not really a fair comment from someone who implies that another poster is not being truthful or clear.

I avoid debating your facts, because your facts are popular..People want to believe them. And when that situation occurs, no meaningful discussions will result.

BTW...some of us who maybe are not out there posting, signing, petitioning, riling up the crowds, but just may be working on this issue in a little quieter way. It wont get us a lifetime supply of free beer or pats on the back, but we just might accomplish in the long term what you claim to be trying to accomplish right now.

[morningwood]

[quote="Gilles HudicourtThe wet-lease pilots do not require work permits to fly in Canada. Only the dry-lease pilots do. So when we talk of pilot work permits, we only talk of the ones flying the dry-leases, and they do not rotate. Only the wet-lease pilots do. So the number of work permits are in no way inflated by rotating pilots as you insinuate."

Actually Gilles, this is incorrect.
The wet lease pilots are operating under a work permit, and they are rotating, which does increase the overall number of work permits required to operate the same number of aircraft.
As I said previously, we all want to see reciprocal pilot numbers, but we need to keep the facts straight.

[mbav8r]

Actually, I believe that most people on here are pretty smart, and eventually see the truth in things.

You would think so, have you bothered to watch the senate hearing yet?

Foreign pilots, I think, are a fact of life here for awhile until our domestic companies grow large enough to support year round fleets. Nothing more complicated in my philosophy than that.

You're correct, very simplistic viewpoint, forget about the fact they're growing at the expense of other good paying jobs.

It becomes very emotional if you have a personal stake in this, as in losing your job,

Yes, jobs were lost making it very personal for Gilles, he has stated that many times. In fact, if Sunwing and Canjet had hired his colleagues, Gilles might not have been so vocal about this issue, I believe he stated that as well.

or advancing your career, and as such, tend not to look at the global picture, but only at what is best for yourself and your friends..Fair enough, but where the water gets a bit muddy is when someone champions themselves as the defender of all pilots when, in fact, they are only concerned about a small minority of them, and if they cause other companies pilots to be laid off..well, that is not their concern.

Again, he started this fight because it affected his colleagues and YES it is a fight for all pilots.

You asked a question on a different thread..What now? Maybe its time for AT to recognize that most of the other carriers are doing the same thing, and try and adapt their business plan to use what seems to be a rather successful model....

That wins idiotic post of the year, in my opinion

As far as pilots go...Companies are primarily responsable to their shareholders..Not their pilots. Pilots are employees. Not entitltled special folk. If companies can find a cheaper way to do business they will.

Exactly right, so who will look after the pilots then?

Gilles, again thank you from a non AT pilot who is not furloughed, but is worried about, if the rest of the Canadian companies follow Sunwings "business model"

[fingersmac]

Foreign pilots, I think, are a fact of life here for awhile until our domestic companies grow large enough to support year round fleets.

Maybe its time for AT to recognize that most of the other carriers are doing the same thing, and try and adapt their business plan to use what seems to be a rather successful model....

Contradicting yourself in the same post, no?

Bending the rules to find success does not make it a successful business model; it makes it an unethical one. And from the sounds of it, the government has realized that companies are manipulating the use of foreign workers to fill a void that could otherwise be filled by Canadians. See the issue with foreign workers and HD Mining in BC. They plan on using Chinese "temporary" workers for 14 years before Canadians can fill the void. 14 years isn't quite temporary. How long will Sun Wing use "temporary" workers for? Until they put everyone else out of business and no longer need their competitive advantage? If it's such a "successful" business plan, why would you ever revert to using only Canadian employees?

[trey kule]

No contradiction at all. The practice is going to continue.. You can fight it, or you can find a way to play by the same rules...

Bending rules? According to exactly who, are the rules being bent? You, and a few other pilots who demand entitlement? Unethical is a bit inflamatory, and I am surmising by your other comments and questions that you are simply trying to pick a fight.

The business model using temporary seasonal pilots is only necessary until one can establish their own fleet. You question shows somewhat of a bit of a lack of understanding of the economics necessary to expand a fleet, or penetrate a market. Sunwings is eating AT's lunch..AT is attacking them on all fronts, and one of those attacks is to criticize the practice of hiring temporary foreigh pilots.

I can only assume you will never be applying at WestJet, Canjet, Sunwings or anyplace else that uses temporary foreign workers..And will demand that all the helicopter pilots we have flying overseas with zero recipricocity return home...Or is that OK with you.?. Australia is not short of heli pilots, and we have a whole bunch of Canadians there flying...paying Canadian taxes...

Where do your personal ethics end? With fairness to all, or just to all that you can take advantage of.
If its fairness to all, you have to look a little bit farther than the AT..SW fight.

When its all said and done, while I disagree wholeheartedly with the approach Mr. H took, and personally feel it was nothing more than an attack on a competitor that would appeal and get the support of all he could convince that a terrible injustice was being inflicted on Canadian pilots, , I do admire his commitment, as I am not certain his career will move forward if he ever has to seek employment with a different company..That does take some character strength to make that type of commitment. For the rest of the mob who come up with rule bending, unethical, scabs, frauds , and all the other descriptions of AT's competition, .....it is just that ...mob mentality.

[Rogerdodger2]

AT using Enerjet Wetlease!! Pot, kettle, black!!

[Rogerdodger2]

Just kidding! Lol! Not the same at all

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The Sunwing fleet now stands at 28 aircraft. Canjet is at 12.

[whipline]

I do admire his commitment, as I am not certain his career will move forward if he ever has to seek employment with a different company

Gilles is passionate about his company and his cause. I'd hire him in a heartbeat.

[mbav8r]

Trey, I've come to one of two conclusions about you, I'm not sure which it is, perhaps I'll let the mob decide.
You either have the reading comprehension of a 5 year old or you're being antagonistic because it has been pointed out and very plainly laid out for all to read. The exact rules that have been bent, twisted and broken have been posted and copied and quoted numerous times and every time Gilles finds another, it gets posted.
This is the last time I will respond to anything you post on this subject as I can not respect the opinion of someone who is clearly stealing work from Australians and thinks all Canadian companies should follow Sunwings "model". I hope the out of work Australian pilots figure out what you're up to and send you packing, for your sake, you should hope all Canadian companies haven't taken your advice by then.

Also like to clarify for you, I have been following this for a few years and maybe the leader of the mob as you say, is ALPA Canada, but if not you're not part of the MINORITY, you must be part of the mob.