Spin Training

[triplese7en]

My reason for asking so many questions about your comment about spins is because a lot of pilots read this stuff and few comment, therefore it is important to make sure there is no missunderstanding about what we are describing.

Ahh! I definitely agree. I just thought you were trolling me!

[Cat Driver]

We will be in Northern Ontario this fall in the motorhome to see the leaves turn in the Muskoka region Colonel, I think that is around the first week in October?

Anyhow we can spend a few days B.S.ing each other when I get to your part of the province.

[DonutHole]

great video

[Cat Driver]

We have over two hundred posts and nine pages discussing this subject and finally someone found a video that puts it in its real perspective.

The next question should be what real value can a new pilot get from reading these differing opinions here in this forum on how to control an airplane " near " " at " and " in " the stall?

As an example go and look at what has been said about the falling leaf exercise by different posters...then watch the video....

So who are we to believe?

My vote goes to the video because he has it correct.

P.S. :

I have taught the falling leaf exercise ever since I was taught it during my Ag. flying training over fifty years ago.

[Old Dog Flying]

The video certainly looks good to me as well .. His explanation of the slip/skid stall sequence and recovery probably won't convince the nay sayers but what the hell..!

Barney

[Cat Driver]

Why do some pilots deny that what that video shows actually is how it works?

When the laws of aerodynamics and physics are proven to be wrong and all the airplanes that respond to the control inputs that were demonstrated in the video don't work the way they do, then we can deny that is how it works.

As I said before, how can a new pilot or pilot to be learn how to control an airplane properly if they read all the posts here where there are pilots stating that they have a better way of teaching...

The internet has its drawbacks for sure and this forum is proof positive.

[Genetk44]

Well the video surely helped illustrate it for me, a very low time student...it brought to mind CS's post about skidding turns bad , slipping good.

[Cat Driver]

Genetk44 the best advice I can give you on who to look to for advice on how to fly is to research the person who is giving the advice.

For instance the pilot in that video is very easy to research....just Google Wayne Handley and his qualifications are well documented.

Here on Avcanada we have Colonel Sanders who also is very easy to research, with these people you have advice coming from a verified source.

Most posters on these aviation forums give their advice from the safety of anonymity, anyone with adverage intelligence should be able to decide which source you want to take advice from.

[Genetk44]

@Cat Driver.....lol....yeah I think I've pretty well figured out whose advice and opinions and instructions I'd take in a heart beat..too bad some are retired or not teaching newbies but at least I still learn from these discussions.

[triplese7en]

I think it's an excellent video! It explains the concepts clearly and then provides great visual demonstrations of it.

I want to first clarify my posts on here: I was talking about an ab-initio student who is first learning stalls. I was talking about a straight ahead stall, which was entered from coordinated flight, and from which a wing drop occurred. I was not talking about a skidding-turn stall or a slipping-turn stall.

To address those two types of stalls I'll just review what I said earlier about the straight ahead stall where a wing drop occurs (specifically a left wing drop for this example). When the aircraft is in any sort of stalled maneuver, the recover should consist of getting the nose to point in the direction of the airplane's flight path. When the wing drops, the aircraft enters a small slip - this is evident because you will generally need a tap of left rudder on recovery, to coordinate the airplane, as you begin to roll the wings level. In this case, the best way to recover is to lower the nose (helping it point in the direction of the airplane's flight path) and roll wings level in a coordinated manner before pulling out of the dive. Adding power immediately after reducing the angle of attack will reduce the altitude loss. Putting right rudder in at the point of stall further puts the plane into a left slip which I don't find beneficial for recovery as it takes the nose further away from the flight path.

Regarding a skidding-turn stall (right turn as in the video):

In this case, the airplane's flight path is to the left of the nose (i.e., approx 11 o'clock). When the airplane stalls just remember to put the nose of the airplane in the direction of the flight path. In this case, rudder is definitely a good idea to use! Going to neutral rudder will definitely help but it doesn't get your nose aligned with your flight path quickly, and it allows for greater departure from level flight. The best way (after you've used forward elevator) is to use left rudder to push the nose to align with the flight path. This is demonstrated by the video.

Regarding a slipping-turn stall (left turn as in the video):

Same thing for this one. Where is the airplane's flight path in a slipping turn? It's left of the nose. The right wing stalls first and produces more yaw to the right as it rolls over. You need to align the nose with the flight path. After you've used forward elevator, use left ruder to push the nose to align with the flight path. This is demonstrated by the video.

What was said about ailerons is perfect. Basically, get off the ailerons - go to neutral.

Regarding the falling leaf:

For reasons I've listed before, I will usually not do this with an ab-initio student. If you want to get the student good on the rudders, there's probably nothing better than maneuvering (turns, slips, etc) at slow speed. With a stall recovery the primary goal is to decrease the AoA and I've seen too many students (who I've taught the falling leaf) use the rudders just like I taught them, and forget to push the stick forward! They're so concentrated during the falling leaf to pick up the wing with the rudder and that carries over to stalls. There are benefits to the falling leaf (usually stuff doesn't stick around for a long time unless there is something good about it) but I feel you can train to the average pilot better if you don't train them how to do the falling leaf stall.

An aerobatic pilot at some point in training should be shown and practice that for sure. The aerobatic pilot should have a better understanding of aerodynamics, better hands and feet, and a better instinct as to how the airplane will react (a sort of flying by the seat of your pants) compared to a fresh PPL.

I don't think someone could argue that the falling leaf MUST be taught or the pilot isn't safe.

This video is perfect! http://youtu.be/ZOPsQn2Mksg?t=21s

"The purpose of this exercise is not to teach you how to do this; simply to show the instability, how very unstable life is, in a stall."

I 100% agree with that statement. It really is a perfect training aid for that. It's not, for the reasons I've explained, good for an ab-initio student to practice it!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Genetk44 I am retired sort of, I quit flying for hire in October of 2005 but did go back to work a couple of years later because the offer was just to good to refuse.

I am thinking of renewing my medical because I am once again involved in two more projects that are just to good to turn down.

One of the projects will require me to do check rides so I will need my medical renewed to be legal.

Also I would like to buy a bigger motor home and need about $150,000 cash to upgrade from the one I have now ......soooo the easy way to get the cash is go back to work part time.

[Colonel Sanders]

Adding power immediately after reducing the angle of attack

This is contentious, and has been argued other places
before. Before you add power, I might advice that you
get the yawing and rolling over with, and allow the airspeed
to build, just a little.

Why? Well, at very slow speeds, power can cause more
trouble than it's worth - slipstream, torque, etc. They all
can cause bad things to happen - I call it the "tail wagging
the dog". Get some airspeed, which increases the effectiveness
of the flight controls, before you add power to the mix.

I have done thousands of hammerheads in my life, and I
long ago learned that by pulling the power after the pivot,
and simply allowing the nose to fall, you not only get a
tighter pivot, but you aren't fighting the propellor at slow
speeds, and things are much less likely to go wrong (eg
hammerspin). You wouldn't believe how few people
know this.

re: falling leaf: You don't have to teach this. It's just a
shame, if you don't, after a student has been taught slow
flight and stalls. It really improves their rudder skills,
which is essential for tailwheel flying, and even improves
their takeoffs and landings in nosewheel airplanes, esp
under less than perfect conditions. It also vastly improves
their confidence wrt slow flight and stalls. Most pilots,
esp low-time pilots, are terrified of stalls. The falling leaf
forces you to get to know the stall, and to learn to control
the airplane through it. You might consider that overkill,
and that's ok. 99% of instructors, except cranky old
bastards like . and Barney and me, agree with you.

PS Slips are good, skids are bad.

Slips (when the ball falls to the INSIDE of the turn) are
harmless, and a temporary source of drag. Caused by
excessive bank (love it) and top rudder.

Skids (when the ball zips to the OUTSIDE of the turn)
are dangerous, and may cause the inside wing to stall
on you, which can see you inverted at 500 feet in a spin.
Caused by not enough bank and excessive bottom
rudder.

[triplese7en]

This is contentious, and has been argued other places
before. Before you add power, I might advice that you
get the yawing and rolling over with, and allow the airspeed
to build, just a little.

That's a really good point.

pulling the power after the pivot,
and simply allowing the nose to fall, you not only get a
tighter pivot, but you aren't fighting the propellor at slow
speeds

As you're ~30 degrees through the turn at the top, do you slowly reduce the throttle to idle?

re: falling leaf: You don't have to teach this.

I do see the benefits to the falling leaf. If I get back into ab-initio training again I'll consider teaching it again.

Most pilots,
esp low-time pilots, are terrified of stalls.

I had a guy from Korea, 42 years old I believe, who came to get his PPL. His mom didn't want him to ever fly so he never told his mom he was here to be a pilot haha. He was terrified of doing anything aggressive! I couldn't do anything but a very shallow, smooth, slow descent on the first couple flights. He was terrified of stalls and spins and all that fun stuff! I eventually got him to the point where he was doing excellent stall recoveries and excellent spin recoveries. He ended up finishing his PPL with just over 100 hours. I am very proud of him! To see a huge progression and to know you had a part in it is pretty sweet.

[Shiny Side Up]

Most pilots,
esp low-time pilots, are terrified of stalls.

Probably because many newer pilots are also terrorized by stalls. Or at least a lot of factors, including some of the training material out there, bad instructors, and other pilots. Notably Cirrus-style training invokes a lot of this.

[Colonel Sanders]

As you're ~30 degrees through the turn at the top, do you slowly reduce the throttle to idle?

Yup. You wouldn't believe how easy it makes the
hhead. You aren't fighting the prop in the pivot, with
your ineffective flight controls (at near-zero airspeed)

And, it reduces your pivot radius (bonus). I discovered
this during formation hheads. I pulled my throttle, but
my father didn't, and I could always pivot tighter than
him: www.pittspecials.com/images/oz_hh.jpg

So, we both started pulling the throttle after the pivot,
and life got a LOT easier. One of the big reasons for
this is gyroscopic precession of the prop. In the pivot
(always to the left with a Lyc/TCM due to slipstream),
the gyroscopic precession of the prop pushes you onto
your back which if you don't oppose it, combines with
the yaw produced by the bootful of left rudder for the
pivot, for a really nice inverted spin. Wheeee!

Note that inverted spins are easy to recover from,
with the rudder in clean air. No blanketing by the
horiz stab/elevator.

The gyroscopic precession of the prop is MUCH
worse with metal blades. If the aircraft has metal
prop blades, you are going to need to forcefully
stuff the stick into the front right corner in the pivot,
to avoid going onto your back. With a composite
prop, the problem almost totally disappears.

You simply wouldn't believe what you have to do
with the stick, when you hhead an R-985 Stearman,
or the clip-wing Harvard with the huge geared 3-blade
metal prop.

Anyways. If you reduce the RPM of the prop by pulling
the throttle back, you reduce the effects of gyroscopic
precession. Don't bring the throttle all the way back to
idle, though, for a couple of very good reasons, one of
them being that you won't be the first person to stop
the prop during a hhead! If you fly acro long enough,
sooner or later you will stop the prop doing something
funny. More than once I have "seen blades" and bumped
the throttle forward.

[trey kule]

I couldn't do anything but a very shallow, smooth, slow descent on the first couple flights. He was terrified of stalls and spins and all that fun stuff!

Perhaps one of the things that would go along way to easing any student fears is for instructors to stop referring to them as. "That fun stuff". They are just another manoeuvre to be learned. No different than a precise, well managed approach and landing. Seems some instructors want to make them more than that....and then wonder how their students came to consider them fearfully.
Having spent a great deal of time doing remedial spin training, the general sense I got of the problem, was that the students initial fear was played on by their instructor (sometimes just without thinking), and then they were taught badly....kind of a " hey watch this" demonstration by an instructor who was not that competent themselves. Spend a bit of time in a flight school listening to instructors discussing spins....huge amount of cowboy and ego. You wont hear much discussion about how to approach the whole subject to put the students mind at ease. By the time your new PPL student takes their first spin, it should be a ho hum experience for them, not a nail biting amusement ride.

[Colonel Sanders]

You wont hear much discussion about how to approach the whole subject to put the students mind at ease

One huge source of stress for some students is
their first solo. I can't believe some instructors,
who tell the student ahead of time that they are
going to go solo, guaranteeing a stressful, often
sleepless night for them.

I don't like people to think very much. Generally
if they do, they screw something up, because when
the fertilizer strikes the rotating cooling device,
people don't rise to the occasion, they sink to their
lowest level of training, which either you have done
with them, or you haven't.

So, I don't warn students about going solo. One
day, without much wind or traffic in the circuits, we
will do a couple circuits without me having to say
much, then I will ask the student to do a full stop
landing. I get out, and tell them to do one circuit,
and I walk back to the clubhouse with my headset
in my hand.

Same thing applies to spin training. For Christ's
sake, don't tell the student you are doing spin
training next lesson. Another stressed, sleepless
night for them. I would vastly prefer that they
have no clue what awaits them, and instead that
they go down to the local peeler joint and get
good and stinking drunk. What great fun.

When they show up next morning, eyes bloodshot
red and de-hydrated, they just won't care. And
that's the Readiness (see FIG Learning Factors)
that I'm looking for, to do some spin training.

And for God's sake, don't start off with a one-turn
spin. The student already knows how to do stalls,
so build on that. Do a wing drop with a recovery
at a quarter turn. Harmless. Do a few of those
until the student relaxes. Then do a half-turn. etc.

[LousyFisherman]

I was never taught the falling leaf during my PPL training. I bought a (share in a) plane capable of spinning deliberately. I then got an instructor to demonstrate entry and recovery after 2 or 3 turns. Then I went by myself.
Then I went and did the falling leaf without instruction
I rarely spin now, whereas I do the falling leaf as part of my regular practice routine. I learned a lot, and had a lot of fun, testing the boundary between not spinning and spinning.

I think the falling leaf should be taught right after the spin lesson. We showed you how to escape, here is how to stop it from happening

LF

[PilotDAR]

I reiterate, that I am not an instructor, so my opinion is thus appropriately less, but...

So, I don't warn students about going solo.

Same thing applies to spin training. For Christ's
sake, don't tell the student you are doing spin
training next lesson.

I disagree. If the student is not up to planning and preparing themselves for a new experience as a dual, mentored training exercise, there is a much bigger problem to be addressed, before you surprise them more.

Yes, my first solo (in the first 152 which came to Canada, when it had 33 hours TTSN!) was a surprise (mostly 'cause it was such a poor weather day). It worked out fine.

However, I spend most of my two pilot flying doing things in planes which are out of the norm (as would be going first solo, or spins). My worst problems have occurred when the other pilot was not expecting what was about to be done. Both of us have ended up unhappy, and flight safety was lessened by the resulting surprise confusion.

My very best safely and confidence building strategy is a good briefing. It should precede every new or unusual event which is planned (or anticipated) during a flight. For 1.6 hours of flight testing yesterday, there was a half hour preflight briefing, including "are there any questions?", and then a pre takeoff briefing of who will do what if something goes bang. The only surprise seemed to be the briefing itself!

When I went first solo in the helicopter, I was briefed the week before. I did a quick refresher flight dual, and was sent as briefed - good performance, 'cause no surprise.

There are enough things which surprise pilots, which cannot be practically briefed, we should brief those things which we can, to reduce the surprise element, or at least the intensity of the surprise.

I walk back to the clubhouse with my headset
in my hand.

C.S., You sent them solo because of your confidence in their piloting skill. They're gonna bring the plane back, and your headset will still be safely aboard!

[Colonel Sanders]

Yup, we need to give PGI, but it does not have to be
immediately before the flight.

I admit that I am a bit of a cynic and pessimist. I find
if you give people some rope, they will generally find a
way to wrap it around their neck. Maybe that comes
from the years of programming, I dunno.

Most people are their own worst enemies. They worry,
they don't sleep, they get stressed, etc. The flight test
is a prime example of this. Many people's performance
on a flight test is much worse than it could be, because
they are stressing themselves out, about it.

My response to the above is to train people solidly, then
like climbing out the door of an airplane to parachute for
the first time, don't let them stop at the door and think
for a while and get scared and have second thoughts.

Less thinking, more doing. With proper training, once
people start performing a task, they will do just fine.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Yup, we need to give PGI, but it does not have to be
immediately before the flight.


Less thinking, more doing. With proper training, once
people start performing a task, they will do just fine.

+ 1

[tractor driver]

I recall Leland (God rest him) telling me about having this video made after the loss of another friend. Knowing Wayne and having flown with him in the Raven, I have witnessed his ability and sincerity, and couldn't think of a better spokesman. Good to be reminded of the basics, and when people of this calibre feel it's important, it's very good to listen.
Thanks for bringing it out.
g

[eaglepilot]

As you're ~30 degrees through the turn at the top, do you slowly reduce the throttle to idle?

Yup. You wouldn't believe how easy it makes the
hhead. You aren't fighting the prop in the pivot, with
your ineffective flight controls (at near-zero airspeed)

And, it reduces your pivot radius (bonus). I discovered
this during formation hheads. I pulled my throttle, but
my father didn't, and I could always pivot tighter than
him

A quick question Colonel, have you ever done ( or seen) this technique in a IAC competition, and if so, did it change the grade on the hammerhead?

I know that the judges are only human, and if you do a maneuver using different, unfamiliar methods (although the airplane is traveling through space in the approved directions), do they might give you a downgrade? I know the rulebook says no, but what has history shown?

[Colonel Sanders]

Beats me. Anytime I was at a contest, the pilots
were doing well not to fall out of the hammerhead.

I have a geriatric copy of the IAC "Red Book" which
I haven't updated since the contest queens went
bananas and had me dragged through court for four
years to satisfy some primal ligitious urges.

Anyways, in "judging criteria" for hhead it says:

Ideally the aircraft pivots around it's center of gravity

So, a tighter pivot is a better pivot. The Red Book
does not say HOW the aircraft is to pivot, it only
tells you WHAT the aircraft is to ideally do, and it
says to deduct a point per half wingspan of bridging.

The Red Book goes on to say that the rate of
pivot is immaterial. I think it's online, if you want
to download it.

[Colonel Sanders]

PS I keep talking about how the upright flat spin
is the one that makes me the most nervous, esp
at low altitude.

Well, here's a fatal crash - deceased contest pilot
was flying an Extra 330SC - and look at what
maneuver killed him?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=831_1370215440