ACPA Implodes !

[DrBoeing]

Then split apart, but keep it behind closed doors.

Publicly denigrating each other's jobs serves no one and makes everyone look bad.

I would suggest that you airports people make the demand, the IAM won't listen to us maintenance guys

[TheSuit]

And here we go, round, round and round again!

And you will continue to go around and around for eternity because of labors insisting on solving a problem which cannot be solved. Trying to set pay based on what is fair and just, based on who's job is most important, blah blah blah. You can't, Karl Marx tried it and it doesn't work. Any competitor which understands that you just have to compete (I'm lookin at you, WestJet) will continue to thrash AC while everyone there sits around crying "No fair! :'( ". If your competition sets a price, you have to figure out how to either match it or provide a better service that customers will pay more for. Period, the end.

If Calin went over to WestJet and said, "Hey no fair, we should make more profit than you because we are a more senior airline, and our operation is more complex and difficult to manage. Give us a slice of your profit". Are you joking? Pound sand. Or maybe Calin should argue that tickets prices should be regulated again because Air Canada (both management AND labor) still has not figured out how to compete. Maybe all industry should be centrally planned and priced by people who think they know best? How well has that worked out?

Noone will ever agree on what is fair because it always depends on who you ask. All kinds of economists have tried to come up with these crackpot utility theories that are just frankly stupid. Life isn't fair and it never will be. The labor selling market your unions are involved in is no different than the ticket selling market the haunchos at HQ have to deal with. You have to match market rate, become more productive, or provide superior quality that consumers are willing to pay for. Fight it all you want, but unions have all but been proven to increase wages at the expense of jobs. If you don't understand why executives get paid more than pilots, or pilots more than ramp, no one can help you. The larger the number of qualified applicants for your positions, the less money you make.

[torx]

And here we go, round, round and round again!

And you will continue to go around and around for eternity because of labors insisting on solving a problem which cannot be solved. Trying to set pay based on what is fair and just, based on who's job is most important, blah blah blah. You can't, Karl Marx tried it and it doesn't work. Any competitor which understands that you just have to compete (I'm lookin at you, WestJet) will continue to thrash AC while everyone there sits around crying "No fair! :'( ". If your competition sets a price, you have to figure out how to either match it or provide a better service that customers will pay more for. Period, the end.

If Calin went over to WestJet and said, "Hey no fair, we should make more profit than you because we are a more senior airline, and our operation is more complex and difficult to manage. Give us a slice of your profit". Are you joking? Pound sand. Or maybe Calin should argue that tickets prices should be regulated again because Air Canada (both management AND labor) still has not figured out how to compete. Maybe all industry should be centrally planned and priced by people who think they know best? How well has that worked out?

Noone will ever agree on what is fair because it always depends on who you ask. All kinds of economists have tried to come up with these crackpot utility theories that are just frankly stupid. Life isn't fair and it never will be. The labor selling market your unions are involved in is no different than the ticket selling market the haunchos at HQ have to deal with. You have to match market rate, become more productive, or provide superior quality that consumers are willing to pay for. Fight it all you want, but unions have all but been proven to increase wages at the expense of jobs. If you don't understand why executives get paid more than pilots, or pilots more than ramp, no one can help you. The larger the number of qualified applicants for your positions, the less money you make.

Jeeze...I can actually see some truth in there!!
This thread sure is a mess now!!

[yyz monkey]

How much money do you think airlines would save if they'd stop turning simple jobs into high paying careers? (ie. Ramp, Agents, Flight Attendants) When any of those people earn as much as the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft .. then I think there is a problem. Of all the "labour" positions in airlines, only 2 should be considered "career" positions .. pilot and engineer.

I know i've offended people with this comment .. sorry .. its the truth.

Said ( wrote ) just about the same thing on an other tread , T/A vote, but yours has not illicited the mud slinging that my comments did, but yours says the same in other words. How about it YYZ Monkey, care to comment or you just take aim at those you are sure are not on your premises.

What would you like comment on? The continued misconception that the ramp makes money equal to pilots & AMEs? I've already demonstrated that's not the case.

Good to see that you don't consider dispatch (my eventual goal) to be a career.

Should the ramp be a career position? Absolutely not - we should top out at five years, with a little extra for leads. Tack on a little more for people who undertake training to qualify them to perform different duties. Promote management from within instead of bringing in grads who haven't a clue how the operation works.

It should be a stepping stone to move within the company, but the fact of the matter is is that it has been made a career position at Air Canada. How do you think they'll go about changing that if the decision is ever made to do so? B-scale pay for new hires and a DC pension.

Would you like that door to be opened?

[fly4ever]

Who is the Boss?

That made me laugh so hard!!!
Thanks!

[DrBoeing]

How much money do you think airlines would save if they'd stop turning simple jobs into high paying careers? (ie. Ramp, Agents, Flight Attendants) When any of those people earn as much as the guys operating the aircraft or fix the aircraft .. then I think there is a problem. Of all the "labour" positions in airlines, only 2 should be considered "career" positions .. pilot and engineer.

I know i've offended people with this comment .. sorry .. its the truth.

Said ( wrote ) just about the same thing on an other tread , T/A vote, but yours has not illicited the mud slinging that my comments did, but yours says the same in other words. How about it YYZ Monkey, care to comment or you just take aim at those you are sure are not on your premises.

What would you like comment on? The continued misconception that the ramp makes money equal to pilots & AMEs? I've already demonstrated that's not the case.

Good to see that you don't consider dispatch (my eventual goal) to be a career.

Should the ramp be a career position? Absolutely not - we should top out at five years, with a little extra for leads. Tack on a little more for people who undertake training to qualify them to perform different duties. Promote management from within instead of bringing in grads who haven't a clue how the operation works.

It should be a stepping stone to move within the company, but the fact of the matter is is that it has been made a career position at Air Canada. How do you think they'll go about changing that if the decision is ever made to do so? B-scale pay for new hires and a DC pension.

Would you like that door to be opened?

DC plan! That door has been opened and it is just a matter of time before it becomes the new reality.

[What About Me?]

Why do you have a problem with retired pilots working? Should we lock them up in a retirement home? Maybe we sould turn them into Soylent Green?

LIS, I wonder if you would be even asking that question if you had a son, or daughter, who was trying to get their first flying job and found their way blocked by double-dipping, retired AC captains?

Thirteen, your post is beyond pathetic.

Enough said.

[FADEC]

If some force retired persons want to work at a job they are qualified for, it is no-one else's business. If another retired person does not want to work, that is their business, but they may not denigrate others who feel differently. This is a personal choice and is intrinsic in our society; we don't force religion on people either, although some would like to.

Some present and recent ACPA Execs have lost sight of their responsibility to work for those they represent; regardless of whether they agree with them or not. Show them the door and get better reps. Much as it pains this early supporter of ACPA, help is urgently needed, and ALPA is the likely solution

As for another undercurrent here; Lots of people think that a pilot's job is easy; to those I say, go for it. Get yourself a licence and an airline job, or any flying job if you have the skills. Until you achieve that, you do not have the understanding of what is required. Flying is not a computer game; you may go your whole career without incident, or you may earn your career salary in a few seconds when things go bad. Two DC10's suffered cargo door failures; both were flyable, only one was landed safely, because the pilots had the depth of skills to do so. The other aircraft, which was actually less damaged was lost with all on board.

AC has had many pilots earn their career salaries; some of us more than once.

In fairness, there have been maintenance and ramp personnel who have saved flights through their actions, but when they fail, it comes to the pilots alone.

[Nirvana]

Keep in mind the pilot keeps going up from there. The lead stops at that point. $26.06 isn't that unreasonable for an experienced lead. Not to mention they aren't doing Tim Hortons level simple jobs. Take De-Icing for example. Do you really want some kid making $10 an hour who really doesn't care what happens to be spraying your plane? Or look at stacking bags into baggage compartments. I've seen experienced guys fit 80 bags into a pit that inexperienced guys only managed to fit 60 into. Is getting passengers bags to them a priority? It does pay to have experienced guys around in every proffession in the company.

I'm sorry .. but yes .. they are doing Tim Horton's level jobs. You pick the bag up and you put it down, you do simple math to make sure you're not exceeding the max compartment weight. YYZ has an APIS system .. so you don't even marshall anymore. A guy deicing an airplane at $10 or $26 will still point the nozzle in the same direction.

There are two people who hold all the responsibility of that aircraft on their shoulders. They're also responsible for the actions of the ramp, flight attendants, and agents.

Yes, the two people are the Pilot in Command and the Flight Dispatcher.

[corytrevor]

There is only one after the start of the take off roll.

[Nirvana]

There is only one after the start of the take off roll.

Absolutely, agree 100%. I was replying in regards to the predeparture, planning activities et al.

[duranium]

If some force retired persons want to work at a job they are qualified for, it is no-one else's business. If another retired person does not want to work, that is their business, but they may not denigrate others who feel differently. This is a personal choice and is intrinsic in our society; we don't force religion on people either, although some would like to.

Some present and recent ACPA Execs have lost sight of their responsibility to work for those they represent; regardless of whether they agree with them or not. Show them the door and get better reps. Much as it pains this early supporter of ACPA, help is urgently needed, and ALPA is the likely solution

As for another undercurrent here; Lots of people think that a pilot's job is easy; to those I say, go for it. Get yourself a licence and an airline job, or any flying job if you have the skills. Until you achieve that, you do not have the understanding of what is required. Flying is not a computer game; you may go your whole career without incident, or you may earn your career salary in a few seconds when things go bad. Two DC10's suffered cargo door failures; both were flyable, only one was landed safely, because the pilots had the depth of skills to do so. The other aircraft, which was actually less damaged was lost with all on board.

AC has had many pilots earn their career salaries; some of us more than once.

In fairness, there have been maintenance and ramp personnel who have saved flights through their actions, but when they fail, it comes to the pilots alone.

REQUIRED READING BY ALL, REGARDLESS OF YOUR OPINIONS

[Mig29]

If some force retired persons want to work at a job they are qualified for, it is no-one else's business. If another retired person does not want to work, that is their business, but they may not denigrate others who feel differently. This is a personal choice and is intrinsic in our society; we don't force religion on people either, although some would like to.

Some present and recent ACPA Execs have lost sight of their responsibility to work for those they represent; regardless of whether they agree with them or not. Show them the door and get better reps. Much as it pains this early supporter of ACPA, help is urgently needed, and ALPA is the likely solution

As for another undercurrent here; Lots of people think that a pilot's job is easy; to those I say, go for it. Get yourself a licence and an airline job, or any flying job if you have the skills. Until you achieve that, you do not have the understanding of what is required. Flying is not a computer game; you may go your whole career without incident, or you may earn your career salary in a few seconds when things go bad. Two DC10's suffered cargo door failures; both were flyable, only one was landed safely, because the pilots had the depth of skills to do so. The other aircraft, which was actually less damaged was lost with all on board.

AC has had many pilots earn their career salaries; some of us more than once.

In fairness, there have been maintenance and ramp personnel who have saved flights through their actions, but when they fail, it comes to the pilots alone.

REQUIRED READING BY ALL, REGARDLESS OF YOUR OPINIONS

I UNDERSIGN "Duranium" HERE!! + 1
YOU GUYS ARE LOSING SIGHT OF THE GOAL HERE AND THROWING MUD AT EVERYONE ON THE GROUND, FROM RAMP GUYS TO DISPATCHERS WON'T WIN YOU A FIGHT HERE. THESE ARE ALL PEOPLE AND ARE YOUR COLLEAGUES AND TEAMATES FIRST OFF ALL. GIVE THEM RESPECT AND THEY WILL DO THE SAME IN RETURN.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME RESPECT YOUR OWN GUYS AND STAND UP WHEN YOU FEEL INJUSTICE. I HOPE YOU WILL DO THAT TOMORROW!

[scopiton]

STAND UP WHEN YOU FEEL INJUSTICE

I've never seen that before... would it be the beginning of a new era ?
amazing...

[Morry Bund]

Apparently, there is a mass resignation going on. Age 60 Committee, CMSC, Strategic Initiatives Committee, Scheduling Committee Chair, Training Alternatives Committee. Not sure about the Negotiating Committee. Suspect they have given up as well.

Tough days ahead, indeed, getting our house back in order.

[yycflyguy]

This was inevitable. I don't blame the various committee chairs from resigning. Most held multiple seats so their resignations will affect more committees. No surprise here. There is a viable plan B waiting to take shape with much more dynamic personalities that is willing to take over the vacancies. The process will take take several months but I am encouraged.

[rudder]

This was inevitable. I don't blame the various committee chairs from resigning. Most held multiple seats so their resignations will affect more committees. No surprise here. There is a viable plan B waiting to take shape with much more dynamic personalities that is willing to take over the vacancies. The process will take take several months but I am encouraged.

Any part of Plan B include a pragmatic, objective, unbiased, and comprehensive analysis of representational alternatives? I see lots of pilot heads rolling around ACPA HQ but it begs a simple question - what role did ACPA professional staff and advisors have in putting the AC pilots in the tenuous position that they now find themselves in?

[Morry Bund]

This was inevitable. I don't blame the various committee chairs from resigning. Most held multiple seats so their resignations will affect more committees. No surprise here. There is a viable plan B waiting to take shape with much more dynamic personalities that is willing to take over the vacancies. The process will take take several months but I am encouraged.

Well, pray tell, would the "viable Plan B," that has apparently already been decided upon, if it exists, include open discussions with the membership about the strategic direction of the union, rather than calamitous surprises foisted upon us unsuspecting cave dwellers?

[Martin Tamme]

Well, pray tell, would the "viable Plan B," that has apparently already been decided upon, if it exists, include open discussions with the membership about the strategic direction of the union, rather than calamitous surprises foisted upon us unsuspecting cave dwellers?

That forms the basis of the plan. It won't happen unless you have membership engagement.

[Morry Bund]

That forms the basis of the plan. It won't happen unless you have membership engagement.

And would "the plan" happen to include any reconciliation of the age 60 issue, or will the "new guard" continue denying reality and attempt to maintain the failed strategy of the "old guard" by keeping us all fighting among ourselves over a social policy issue that is hopelessly futile and impossible to surmount?

After looking at the entire TA fiasco, one cannot help but wondering if the entire effort of the MEC, the Negotiating Committee, the Project Ultra Committee and the Age 60 Committee to change the structure of the ball game wasn't predicated on biting off one's nose to spite one's face. To date, whenever the signs were clear that the strategy was a failure, the response was to throw more resources at it, in a desperate hope that it would go away, or that at least the chickens would not come home to roost any time soon.

Look at the result. The chickens are indeed coming home to roost. Impeachments, resignations, and a complete loss of solidarity at a time when we are confronted with very, very serious challenges by the corporation that go right to the core of our strengths and identity.

Please tell me that "the plan" is not to offer more of "the same".

[vic777]

And would "the plan" happen to include any reconciliation of the age 60 issue,

A good start would be to calculate how many hundreds of millions of dollars the Company will realize through implementing FlyPast60.

[accumulous]

A good start would be to calculate how many hundreds of millions of dollars the Company will realize through implementing FlyPast60.

And how over 2600 pilots will benefit from opening the top end of their careers to pursue a full pension, a scant 30 years after the CHRT opened the bottom end.

And how the Defined Benefit Pension will thrive under career extensions for all 2900 pilots. That’s right, everybody. Once more. Everybody.

And how wage increases will not be further swallowed by Miserably Pointless Inept Litigation Strategies.

Act 1

Our Runaway Age 60 Nuthouse Train slammed head first into a rock face that was slid into position at the end of a blind-ass tunnel in February, 2011 by the Federal Court of Canada.

Act 2

The Hindenburg thundered in tail first after the top blew clean off its ill-fated TA, taking all hands into the dirt with it.

Act 3

Now the Lusitania floats out center stage in our Imax Theatre of the Absurd, in clear view of the entire slack-jawed North American Aviation Community, and the plank is down for boarding by a ‘New’ group.

Same Agenda?

Here’s what happens.

Circa mid-August, TA number 2 gets a stiff Volley of Torpedoes right square amidships.

The Lusitania upends and heads straight for the bottom like a polished crowbar.

Act 4

The last remaining Lusitania survivors dog-paddle their way over to the Titanic for pick-up.

Curtain.

[yycflyguy]

The chickens are indeed coming home to roost. Impeachments, resignations, and a complete loss of solidarity at a time when we are confronted with very, very serious challenges by the corporation that go right to the core of our strengths and identity.

Au contraire. I believe the TA has unified an apathetic membership. The system was broken. It will be fixed and the sun will rise tomorrow.

[Rockie]

The retirement issue remains, and unfortunately the old guard did a very good job of manipulating the group to their way of thinking. We have LEC vice chairs running who to a man have reaffirmed their belief in retiring at age 60 and vow to defend our percieved right to force people out against their will.

The blinders are still firmly on and I haven't yet heard anybody who is actually aware of where this issue is today.

I have no doubt ACPA will appoint a new Age 60 committee that will continue down the same path as the last one.

[Norwegianwood]

I have no doubt ACPA will appoint a new Age 60 committee that will continue down the same path as the last one.

THEN, acpa will raise the dues to throw good money after bad in the name of, can I say stupidity!!!! Sure I can because it is a stupid cause.

Budget time is really close boys and girls, then Buh-Bye mandatory retirement for ALL..............