50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

[stickontheice]

Our relationship with the Executives is highlighted by the fact they came to us to ask permission to proceed with a Regional airline. We're voting on the MOA, permission to start a new company, and that is it.

There was been a lot of talk internally about the wages and such. I know that Gregg, Cam, and Ferio have heard our voices and they will take that into account after the MOA is completed. 80%, 10%, Lexion, WAWCON, whatever other fancy phrase you want to argue, etc are all just not applicable right now. And you can bet that WJPA is going put their usual 110% effort into it.

You talk to 16 year captains and they have never been tricked, jacked, or lied to in their time here and the majority of them believe they're not going to start now. It's a pretty powerful message and one that I've listened to. If the past behaviour predicts the future behaviour then we're going to be very successful in this venture.

There's going to be a lot of new opportunity for a lot of new people not a WJ yet. I would think they're pretty excited about this too.

[Joint-venture]

What about the new pilots already at WestJet? I hope the WJPA has some nuts on this one. WJ is a top notch company with top notch pilots. A company representing WJ deserves the same just as Jazz is to AC. Please be aware that in the late 90's when you paid substandard wages to your pilots, you were not even on the radar. In 2012 you have an opportunity to affect the wages and working conditions for future generations to come. Please stop and think about that.

[altiplano]

Wow lot's of flames in here... I am very happy for the group at WS on this. Growth is exciting and I think if this can be done right here is the group to do it.

I mentioned earlier in the thread though that wages are one thing - whether AME or CEO, 737 or Q400 they are obviously going to be different. But my 2 cents as an outsider is to keep the rest comparable - same benefit structure, ESP options, extended medical contributions, per diem, profit share etc... if every other employee group gets an equal kick at something and the new Q400 guys don't? Pay is pay - it is what it is and it varies from position... but a second tier benefit package, for me anyway, would be harder to swallow...

Good luck on whatever happens.

[J Roc]

...J-Roc, talk is cheap my friend...

So true! Probably explains why I feel so dirty when I read this forum.

[flyer 1492]

Just a quick question not about wages or working conditions. I am wondering if WJA has 40 Q400's scattered thru out the country, how many times a day would you be servicing say YQL (for an example). You would have to have a pretty high load factor just to break even. Smaller markets mean smaller loads.

Flyer

[YQLRookie]

Just a quick question not about wages or working conditions. I am wondering if WJA has 40 Q400's scattered thru out the country, how many times a day would you be servicing say YQL (for an example). You would have to have a pretty high load factor just to break even. Smaller markets mean smaller loads.

Flyer

Branching off on your question, is the Q400 maybe too much airplane for routes like YQL? Taking YQL for example again, today there is (from YYC) on Air Canada two Dash 8-100s, and 3 B1900s, or 128 daily available seats each direction (fares around $200 one way on a random date with tax), plus Integra Air's two Jetstream 31 flights to YEG, 32 more seats. If we use a load factor of around 80%, thats 102 seats filled each day on Air Canada, give or take. A Dash 8-400 is around 70 seats, so at 2 flights per day you've more than doubled capacity. In my completely un-business trained mind, wouldn't one of two things happen:
1) Westjet simply attracts those who previously drove to YYC and both AC and Westjet are able to sustain service profitably
or
2) Competition ensues, and fares and flight frequencies are adjusted duly?
I'm just curious how well some of the markets would be able to sustain service from both Westjet and AC.

[CanadianEh]

Just a quick question not about wages or working conditions. I am wondering if WJA has 40 Q400's scattered thru out the country, how many times a day would you be servicing say YQL (for an example). You would have to have a pretty high load factor just to break even. Smaller markets mean smaller loads.

Flyer

Branching off on your question, is the Q400 maybe too much airplane for routes like YQL? Taking YQL for example again, today there is (from YYC) on Air Canada two Dash 8-100s, and 3 B1900s, or 128 daily available seats each direction (fares around $200 one way on a random date with tax), plus Integra Air's two Jetstream 31 flights to YEG, 32 more seats. If we use a load factor of around 80%, thats 102 seats filled each day on Air Canada, give or take. A Dash 8-400 is around 70 seats, so at 2 flights per day you've more than doubled capacity. In my completely un-business trained mind, wouldn't one of two things happen:
1) Westjet simply attracts those who previously drove to YYC and both AC and Westjet are able to sustain service profitably
or
2) Competition ensues, and fares and flight frequencies are adjusted duly?
I'm just curious how well some of the markets would be able to sustain service from both Westjet and AC.

YQLRookie, that is a good point.

I remember when AC brought the EMJ190 to YXU to compete against Westjet on the route to YYC. That lasted a bit over a year I believe and AC pulled out. Bottom line is that back in 1999 when we had 2 int'l carriers, there was not enough traffic to sustain both carriers. Whether or not things have changed much to accommodate a second carrier is debatable.

[bobcaygeon]

Any comparison to the original WJ start-up is pretty weak unless:
-you can find 400's in as bad of shape as the original 3 737-200's (do you remember the combi girl?)
-you are supporting the entire infrastructure with only 3 planes
-you are using your second choice of airplane type (737) because you couldn't afford your first choice (DC-9) because Valujet/Air Tran's demand for them inflated the price making 737-200's cheaper.

Good luck to your group either way you go but be a leader not a bottom feeder (we already have lot's of those types)

PS If you want to do a CPA agreement instead I know of a corporation that owns airlines with both D8 & ATR-72's on their AOC already and a former WJ manager as a top executive.

[FrankTheTank]

Just curious how long it takes in average to apply for and receive an oc?

[DaveP]

Hi,
If we are given the nod after the 7th of Feb. We can get the ball rolling. If we went hard we could have it in 6 months. The other part of that equation is the AC type and availability.

There are a lot of "other moving parts" but we are up for it!

Cheers

[Eric Janson]

The concept of bigger aircraft = more money is a holdover from the 1950's when jets were first introduced.

It's archaic and divisive as seen in this thread. It's a broken model imho.

Just to give some ideas how things are done in other Airlines in other parts of the World.

There are only 2 salary scales - one for Captain one for First Officer. Equipment is bid by seniority. From my experience it works very well. People can choose the flying that works for them with no financial penalty.

Examples from my career.

Company operated 737/757 - same salary scale.

Company operated 757/767/MD11/747 - same salary scale. 767 was the senior fleet 747 was the junior fleet.

Company operated 757/A320 - same salary scale.

Company operated A320/A330/A340 - same salary scale with a small difference in Type allowances ($400/$700/$700 and $1000 for mixed fleet flying p/m).

Perhaps this is something to think about.

[KAG]

A lot of interesting views and concerns, Just as many on our internal board.
Which should give some people on here reassurance that were looking out for our fellow future Westjetters, while protecting what we have. Sure it's a slippery slope, but I know the intent is there so that gives me comfort.
I don't like the idea of my vote/actions further degrading our industry; I went to the town hall meetings, asked pointed questions and did a lot of thinking. I voted for the MOA, and I'll be sure to add my voice in the WAWCON negotiations when the time comes.

Could this bite us in the ass down the road? Sure, then again we could be hit by an asteroid tomorrow. Point is no one knows what the future holds, all I know is we going at this with the best of intentions.
Time will tell.

[rhythm101]

My 2 cents - which is worth a lot less after the government takes 80% - I think WestJet management seems to be doing this right. They could easily just have decided to do it, but instead went to the employee's for there opinions THEN put it up for a vote. And from what I understand it was all employee's not just the pilots or FA's. How many of you work somewhere that they have done something similar? Where your union or association has been involved from the outset and not because they had to be because of some legally binding contract?

I know quite a few people at Westjet, CSA's, pilot's, FA's, dispatcher's....They all seem to be wondering alot of the same things that are being brought up and I have the utmost respect for them and confidence that they are going to help guide the WestJet management to get this right - for themselves, there jobs, future employees and the future of the company. Good luck guys.

[tallyho]

Ok, how many pilots would be required to cover 40 Q400`s?

Presumably other companies will have to let pilots go as there aren`t thousands of passengers waiting in airports everyday because there is no one to fly them in a Q400. So Westjet takes current passengers from AC, Jazz, SkyRegionl, Porter and any number of smaller outfits running skeds. Westjet operating a regional may well be better for passengers and the industry going by their past success, but will there really be a net increase in the total number of pilot jobs in Canada? I sure hope so, but I don`t really see how there can be a large increase.

[Tiny Tyke]

8-10 pilots/bird would be a good start.

[Legacy]

Ok, how many pilots would be required to cover 40 Q400`s?

Presumably other companies will have to let pilots go as there aren`t thousands of passengers waiting in airports everyday because there is no one to fly them in a Q400. So Westjet takes current passengers from AC, Jazz, SkyRegionl, Porter and any number of smaller outfits running skeds. Westjet operating a regional may well be better for passengers and the industry going by their past success, but will there really be a net increase in the total number of pilot jobs in Canada? I sure hope so, but I don`t really see how there can be a large increase.

Maybe not but lets just hope they will be more secure jobs than are currently out there.

[complexintentions]

Sorry but I don't buy that line of reasoning.

More secure than what? A job at Jazz? Porter? Skyregional?

If anything, a WestJet regional will only make those jobs more unstable, threatening them as they will. You presume everyone is dying to work for WestJet, or can just easily transfer their employment at one of the aforementioned companies to the new entity. It ain't quite that easy.

There will be a lot of chin-scratching and pontificating and self-justification from current Westjet pilots, but in the end of course they'll vote it in, or support it, or have a big group hug, or whatever it is they do. They HAVE their jobs, and the regional has only upside for them! Duh. I'd do the same. For the new hires....for the industry...I have my doubts. WestJet magic gold-dust aside.

Incidentally, I don't have a horse in this race. Just gonna be amused to watch the proceedings, and colleagues/friends of mine earnestly explain how it's all good....

[FICU]

Sorry but I don't buy that line of reasoning.

More secure than what? A job at Jazz? Porter? Skyregional?

Don't forget Calm Air, CMA, Georgian, and Provincial.

[anonymity]

Food for thought, the portion on Southwest's letter from Kelly to the employees is eye opening to say the least. I guess every airline, including WestJet is on borrowed time. Eventually those legacy cost will come up and bite you. I hope this regional "company" doesn't come back to haunt you, afterall, Southwest's warriors, I mean WestJet owners have never had any reason to not trust management!
http://www.operationorange.org/

Notice that Kelly said “Great Customer Service cannot overcome high costs.” Why would he say that? It is because Southwest routinely leads the industry in customer satisfaction, so there is little room for employees to enhance customer service to protect their W-2s. Kelly is clearly saying that the only option is cutting costs.
Southwest Airlines is the only major airline from 1989 that has survived this tumultuous industry without bankruptcy. Why? Because our low costs have preserved our profits. Period.

Wrong! Southwest has avoided the revolving door of bankruptcy and employee relations disasters because it has treated its “warriors” with respect and dignity. In return, Southwest’s “warriors” have never had any reason to not trust management. They can take risks, offer flexibility, and know they won’t end up in arbitration proceedings with management/government stacking the deck against them and walking away with tortured interpretations of the clear text of their contract or the law.

Now, the enemy is our own cost creep, our own legacy-like productivity, and our own inefficiencies. Fighting this cost enemy is an imperative to remain the Maverick. We will fight, and we will remain the Maverick.

Finally, please remember, all the great things our People do will be for naught without low costs. Just ask the old “Legacy” airlines. I am very grateful and very thankful for all of you.

"We at OPERATION ORANGE never thought Southwest management would be so foolish as to take this course. We didn’t believe Southwest pilots could be motivated to join our efforts, but perhaps we were mistaken."

[Realitychex]

Southwest has been around for about 40 years with all the inherent cost creep. WJ has been around less than half of that.

If done correctly, the turbo prop operation will be a useful way of resetting the low cost bar, as well as reenergizing the overall organization.

The key is to reset the bar as a start up, which is what this venture essentially is, rather than on the basis of 15+ years of cost evolution, whilst still leveraging costs against an established infrastructure that would be unwise to duplicate.

Using one to offset the other is a mistake that's been made many times before.

[RussD]

I see. So the trick is to make the current 'Mainline" WJ employees believe that the start up costs should and WILL be borne by the new baby, and to make the new baby 'Feeders' believe they deserve less because they are a new and distinct entity that has to forge it's own 'new' way.
I guess I've misunderstood what WestJetitude is all about, all along. So I should I guess,, I don't live it.

What I do see is the supposedly enlightened ones, importing the most destructive element to the notion of 'team building' that malicious managements in this industry have devised; Separate company; separate 'seniority' list; separate representation, all living under the same roof??? WTF are you people thinking??. How far you've strayed. How fucking sad. You had a blank slate and you chose to emulate the most toxic possible example of how not to do it. The same model that CAIL and AC embraced over 2 decades ago that led to your founders say '@#$! this we are out of here'. Well done.

All you sad ass fools that think your result will be different just because "we're WestJetters" just destroyed that argument by accepting a lower caste within (think about it!!!) and paved the way for your own fall. And I thought you guys/gals had your shit together. Shame on me.
have a great day

RD out

[Rotten Apple #1]

Wow! What a 'wowsy wowsy woo woo' view of the new, exciting, capital intensive venture that WestJet is proposing. What exactly do you know about starting new aviation ventures in Canada that could possibly trump our BOD's and executive's decision?


You need to tone down the rhetoric, sober up, and pull your head firmly out of your @ss.

[rhythm101]

"wowsy wowsy woo woo" - what a great counter argument, how much time did you spend on that last 4 hour leg coming up with that? And if your going to quote directly from Greg's Blog or the Q&A it would be nice if you gave credit where it is due.

Don't be accusing other's of being "drunk" when you have so obviously been drowning your cells in too much purple Kool-aid to offer an insightful, intelligent counter argument to an industry wide impression of WestJet.

Personally, I don't know what is going to happen and refuse to conjecture - I prefer to play the devil's advocate - but I think, with everything going on at AC and WJ, the next few years are going to be very interesting. Though it seems, in my years of experience, that aviation is always going through interesting times, whenever things seem to be getting a little dull somebody blows something up either literal or figuratively setting the industry into a twirl. If I had a dime for evey pilot - with a grade 10 and a CPL - who has all the answers, I wouldn't have to be working in this industry but would be, just for the laughs........

[FICU]

After speaking with several WJ pilots I, and they as well have to wonder why the company feels the need to dangle the wide body carrot to make this a go with the pilot group. I would be wary that once you give management, how long has Greg been a WJ'er for, the green light in, quoting Realitychex, "resetting the low cost bar" the precedent is set and your wide body operation could very likely end up, "resetting the low cost bar" once again.

Remember, the BoDs are there to increase shareholder value first and foremost.

Good luck with the new direction and I hope it works out.

[anonymity]

Realitychex, I had to read your post several times and still don't get it. Are you being sarcastic or ironic?
Either you don't see the future in front of your face or you don't care about 10 years from now. Yes Southwest is 40 years old but if I had to guess, WestJet's cost are creeping up faster than your counterparts did, so they'll be dealing with legacy cost sooner.
Then you throw in a statement like,

Using one to offset the other is a mistake that's been made many times before.

After saying,

The key is to reset the bar as a start up, which is what this venture essentially is, rather than on the basis of 15+ years of cost evolution, whilst still leveraging costs against an established infrastructure that would be unwise to duplicate

A little bit ironic, don't you think?

Dear Rotten Apple #1, you seem to be the one on here with your head firmly planted up your $s%, if you don't see the fact that your leader Gregg, has no history with a low cost carrier with exception to Horizon, then you simply are doomed to go through the next several years with blinders on and get what you get, but you can never say you weren't warned. I'll give you a hint, check out the realtionship with Horizon and Alaskan, that should give you insight to the future.
Make no mistake, this "capital intensive" start up will be used to get your cost creep in check. Maybe 5-10 years from now but it will happen.