Encore's Pay and Work Conditions

[FL767]

Well.. I do have an idea how to make this situation more fair; "Encore wages at Mainline"

WestJet HR proved that they can fill Dash seats with $38/20, so they should have no trouble filling Boeing seats with the same pay. I mean who wouldn't want to fly heavy metal across North America - pay be damned.



Impact,

You are not arrogant you have the right idea, "if you don't like it go some where else." There is bound to be a few people at Encore who would have a better time if they stayed at their 1900/King Air jobs.

[Impact]

So JJJ you are saying that the first officers at Encore are of lower quality than the f/o's hired at WJ. Jazz has hired college grads with 250 hours and operate just as well as someone with a lot more experience. So what you saying does not hold true, any pilot can be trained to fly a jet.

Flyer

Son, we don't get paid for what we do. We get paid for what we know.

You might be able to comprehend that idea after another decade or two in this industry.

Hey Impact,

I have been in this industry for more than 2 decades, so I do know what I am talking about.

Cheers

That's interesting. Even while I was in the throws of my cocksuredness in my teens, with 250 hrs under my belt, did I ever think that I had the ability or judgement of a pilot with 20,000 hrs. Don't get me wrong. A keen 20 year old could program an FMC/FMS in half the time of a seasoned 50 year old. The Xbox generation types do have an advantage over us crusty old guys. That I will not dispute. Judgement, and the experience that underpins it, is not one of them.

It would seem that in your overzealous want to disparage Encore, you've ventured into a topic that has you painted into a corner. A 250 hr pilot is the equivalent of a 25,000 hr pilot you say?

Cheers

[flyer 1492]

Impact,

Where did I ever write about a 250 hour pilot is the equivalent of a 25,000 hours. Your words not mine. I just pointed out that a company can train a pilot (high or low) to pass his/her check ride.

[jjj]

Black Cat,

The general population pilots voted on a MOA that merely set a basic framework on how to implement a home grown regional feed. It included a few basic concepts such as minimum flow rates up from Encore and that type of thing.

It was essentially a permit to proceed versus getting a CPA or something like that.

Actual WAWCON (hourly rates and days worked) was not part of the document.

The sad part is that WAWCON got up to where it was from the intervention of the WJPA. WestJet leaders have come to the table at every opportunity with absolute low-ball expectations for what they are willing to pay. Terrible.

After the permit to proceed - the WAWCON was completely out of the hands of almost all of us. All we have been able to do is voice our distaste.


JJJ

[RustyDeuce]

When are some of you going to realize a "united" group of pilots is never going to happen? It's every man for himself. Pay has steadily been going down because of SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Airlines can pay what they want because the applicants continue to line up for jobs. Blaming WestJet pilots (who had NO say in the WAWCON of Encore) is shortsighted. If half of you could focus half your attention on the issue and not the people, you might be onto something. The vitriol and hatred some of you spew is so misdirected it does nothing to solve the "problem".

[DH772]

WJ pilots are not to blame here. They did not create those wages nor had the power to approve them. All they did was vote on the MOA.

But it does raise an interesting question!
If management had presented the wages when you voted for the MOA, would the pilots still have voted in favor of a regional carrier? Would Encore have been shot down to protect pilots jobs but in turn hurting the possibility of getting heavies in the near future? Somehow I believe Encore would have been created no matter what.

Don't worry folks, Encore did lower the limbo bar quite substantially but 6 months a new carrier will come along and lower it even further.

Next up.....Air Georgian!!

Cue the music!

[Rumors]

Be careful Bede

I might start a thread discussing correlation of flight hours with skill level and and accident rate.

I believe there are many factors which contribute to an accident.

Just because Sully had 20,000 hours doesn't mean that incident would of played out the same if it was a different 20,000 Pilot from US Airways.

I think there's a lot more to skill level then total flight hours.

[7thirtyseven]

Completely ignorant, address the problem dont blame the person.

Completely ignorant? Why would it be completely ignorant to support somebody in their realization that a certain job may not be right for them, especially after only a few months in said job. It is much better to address the issue in the early months, rather than having been at said job for years in which one will become bitter and twisted.

Ultimately it is the person who is responsible for their own happiness and job satisfaction. You do realize that, don't you?

As I've mentioned, it is unfortunate that he/she is not happy at Encore. I wish them a long and happy career at a company that fulfills their particular dreams, expectations, and aspirations. Nothing more, and nothing less.

I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you were FL025's personal life coach. If you're not feel free to look up "patronizing".

If guys at Encore are having issues, WJA pilots have a responsibility, the first of which is a recognition that the issues are there. This is step one, FL025 please feel free to PM me, I can't do much but I'm willing to do what I can.

[complexintentions]

I wish them a long and happy career at a company that fulfills their particular dreams, expectations, and aspirations.

Perhaps if we started choosing careers and jobs based on criteria a little more substantial than this, there wouldn't be quite so much disillusionment when reality smacked people right between the eyes.

Newsflash: employers don't care about your dreams, expectations, and aspirations. They exist to create shareholder value. Full stop.

Run your career like a business, not an episode of "Girls". You are professionals, whether at 250 hours or 25,000.

I simply do not know how it can be possible to live in any semi-major Canadian city on an Encore FO wage. Or for that matter, on a junior captain wage. The whole job is a gamble it might help you get somewhere better. But where? In the global pilot market, the good jobs are no longer in North America (small niches aside, catering to those with lower expectations).

Will that DHC rating help you get somewhere you will actually earn enough at to retire on? It clearly is not designed to be a career job. It just isn't sustainable at those wages.

[Old fella]

I wish them a long and happy career at a company that fulfills their particular dreams, expectations, and aspirations.

Perhaps if we started choosing careers and jobs based on criteria a little more substantial than this, there wouldn't be quite so much disillusionment when reality smacked people right between the eyes.

Newsflash: employers don't care about your dreams, expectations, and aspirations. They exist to create shareholder value. Full stop.

Run your career like a business, not an episode of "Girls". You are professionals, whether at 250 hours or 25,000.

I simply do not know how it can be possible to live in any semi-major Canadian city on an Encore FO wage. Or for that matter, on a junior captain wage. The whole job is a gamble it might help you get somewhere better. But where? In the global pilot market, the good jobs are no longer in North America (small niches aside, catering to those with lower expectations).

Will that DHC rating help you get somewhere you will actually earn enough at to retire on? It clearly is not designed to be a career job. It just isn't sustainable at those wages.

Valid commentary, complex.

Encore is similar to call-center operations in that it(call-center employment) is a revolving door. They pay in the vicinity of $10-13 per hour and throw in some very basic employee benefit package. Encore MGT probably understands when things open up - and it will, pilots and FAs will move on to what they feel will be a better career move.

[FL767]

Valid commentary, complex.

Encore is similar to call-center operations in that it(call-center employment) is a revolving door. They pay in the vicinity of $10-13 per hour and throw in some very basic employee benefit package. Encore MGT probably understands when things open up - and it will, pilots and FAs will move on to what they feel will be a better career move.

Bingo!

Encore is a ground up purpose built stepping stone airline - which is fine, stepping stones have their place. However the place is usually in Northern Canada designed to give a pilot with nothing a chance to get something, not a large airline for industry professionals who paid dues for 6 years in the last 10 of their career.

Hopefully all this "due paying" means when WJ finally gets a wide body they can pay their crew decent "industry average" wages, right? RIGHT?

But lets be realistic, WJ will try to sell tickets to Europe and China for $79.99 return fair and keep this cost saving 38/20 model.

[volez]

Let us be realistic here,

You will always find someone who thinks of being smarter than the rest of the crowd and will accept any work conditions, tough it out for couple months as they focus on the quick upgrade to the left seat. As I am endorsed on type, I was asked by a couple of friends if I were considering to make the move myself. It looks enticing to be part of the growth but I cannot afford it.

I have few examples of former coworkers who made the switch recently to a low paid regional. They all left King Air, 1900, Metro Captains jobs. They must have a second source of income...

[lostaviator]

So now that Encore is past the 6 month mark, can some share their feedback on the experience so far? I've heard rumblings of a wage increase? Are you actually working 20 days a month? whats the average cheque looking like with (and without per diems)?

[LAX]

I have been at Encore for the past few months and overall I enjoy it here.
We are working 20 days per month as the month with an inefficient schedule. Improving this seems to be a big priority with the company and management tells us this will improve throughout 2014.
Right now there are 9 aircraft with one being added approximately every month so there are some growing pains with such ambitious expansion. But things seem to be always improving.
Our minimum credit is 80h per month as of Jan 1st and it's unlikely you will fly more than that due to inefficient scheduling.
Right now upgrades are quick. I would expect someone starting in the next ground school would be upgraded within the next 12 months.
I have not heard anything about a raise.

[YYCAME]

It could be worse, aviation could get on board with using unpaid interns

[Jack In The Box]

It could be worse, aviation could get on board with using unpaid interns

Not sure if sarcastic but...clearly you've never heard of Gulfstream airlines? And a half dozen other programs like it?

Forget free interns...these interns PAY to be interns...

[mattzar]

Anyone working at Encore know what per diems come out to per month?

[dignifly]

Just out of curiosity but what is the quality of FO's being hired to Encore? Of course there is no shortage of 'qualified' people applying (1500 hours isn't a lot) but are they getting people with decent command experience on a dash or equivalent or is it a lot of career fo's from 1900s, metros, king airs etc? I'm not knocking career FO's either because we've all been there and just need a shot at some point but I'd hope they're getting some decent people with upgrades around a year or less. That's not an easy plane to fly and some of the areas they're operating are challenging. As well, what happens to someone hired on there who just can't make it through the upgrade to captain? Still get to slide on to mainline when their number comes up? That's an interesting scenario and eventually will come up. Sorry if some of this has been answered in this thread but it's ten pages long and has really gone all over the place.

[twincomanche]

WHAT A FRIGGEN JOKE!!!