Cat & Doc
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
Re: Cat & Doc
I grew up around those backwards throttled tractors as well, but never once moved an aircraft throttle the wrong way because of it. Maybe if tractors' were the only throttles I'd been exposed to it would have been different. Hard to imagine a farmer or equipment operator that didn't also have time on a selection of everything from lawnmowers and chainsaws, snowmobiles, bikes and three/four-wheelers, cars, trucks, etc. with all their varied throttle setups. The only time I remember being directionally challenged by a control on a motorized device (well.. not counting the odd unfortunate encounter with Russian built tractors) was the first time I drove a four-wheeler with an automatic clutch. Each time I went to shift gears for the first while, I'd automatically grab what should have been the clutch but was instead the rear brakes. Didn't make for the smoothest ride..
Re: Cat & Doc
This happened at my home field when I was a child... First flight of a new homebuilt, and somehow despite review by half a dozen of the airport experts, the ailerons were wired backwards. Airplane took off, and started a turn *away* from the circuit. Turn stopped abruptly, and wings levelled out. Then the plane slowly began turning back towards the circuit, with a very shallow turn. Apart from shallow turns at all four corners, the circuit completed "normally" and the pilot landed, taxied in, and shut down.Colonel Sanders wrote:You're going to think I'm nuts, but it would
be great fun to take off and - SURPRISE -
have the ailerons reversed. Happens every
once in a while, after heavy mtce. A neat challenge.
Most people didn't even know anything was wrong. They re-rigged it and flew it again that same day, as I recall. It was the only snag on the airplane.
-
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2578
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
- Location: Negative sequencial vortex
Re: Cat & Doc
The rudder on my sailboat is controlled by a short tiller that goes into a lazarette where it is moved by cables from a drum attached to a traditional wheel. One year I was doing maintenance on the cables and accidentally put them around the drum the wrong way, so the wheel worked in reverse. When I found out about it I tried to live with it like that but one day a gust of wind caught the boat and I reacted instinctively, zigged when I should have zagged and caught the boom upside my great big thick head. Needless to say I had the boat out of the water shortly thereafter to re-rig the rudder.
You could probably deal with reversed controls as long as you had the spare split-seconds it takes to reason your way through control movements, but the second something catches you by surprise, watch out for your subconscious, which is where all your ingrained ability to fly resides. It's not so easy to re-program that.
You could probably deal with reversed controls as long as you had the spare split-seconds it takes to reason your way through control movements, but the second something catches you by surprise, watch out for your subconscious, which is where all your ingrained ability to fly resides. It's not so easy to re-program that.
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
Re: Cat & Doc
Another story about reprogramming... Many moons ago my mother won the door prize at a fly-in in Washington state. The prize was a Weedhopper ultralight.
The Weedhopper used two-axis controls, via a sidestick in your right hand. Elevator and rudder only, there were no ailerons. It was tricycle-geared, with a steerable nosewheel that essentially just had a piece of pipe crossways through the vertical shaft that the nosewheel turned on. Think about that for a moment... That means when you're on the ground, to turn left, you need to push with your *right* foot.
We assembled it back in Canada without the wings, and various pilots tried taxiing it around the hangars. Every one of them started out straight, but ended up in wildly divergent PIO due to the reversed pedal action. I'm amazed nobody hurt themselves or the aircraft.
My parents, apparently being eager to see their only child die in a pile of aluminum and Rotax parts, let me give it a try. I was only 12-ish years old so I didn't have a pilot's license or any of the preconceived notions of what my feet should do that come along with one... I had no trouble. Which annoyed many of the gold bars who had tried it unsuccessfully just moments before and declared it unsafe.
The Weedhopper used two-axis controls, via a sidestick in your right hand. Elevator and rudder only, there were no ailerons. It was tricycle-geared, with a steerable nosewheel that essentially just had a piece of pipe crossways through the vertical shaft that the nosewheel turned on. Think about that for a moment... That means when you're on the ground, to turn left, you need to push with your *right* foot.
We assembled it back in Canada without the wings, and various pilots tried taxiing it around the hangars. Every one of them started out straight, but ended up in wildly divergent PIO due to the reversed pedal action. I'm amazed nobody hurt themselves or the aircraft.
My parents, apparently being eager to see their only child die in a pile of aluminum and Rotax parts, let me give it a try. I was only 12-ish years old so I didn't have a pilot's license or any of the preconceived notions of what my feet should do that come along with one... I had no trouble. Which annoyed many of the gold bars who had tried it unsuccessfully just moments before and declared it unsafe.
- Pop n Fresh
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1270
- Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:46 am
- Location: Freezer.
Re: Cat & Doc
Hearty laughing here.AirFrame wrote: My parents, apparently being eager to see their only child die in a pile of aluminum and Rotax parts, let me give it a try.
Also nice to see meatservo around. Though not enough.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:36 am
- Location: CYPA
Re: Cat & Doc
Speaking of "backwards"...there is always the Military version of the DHC2. That took me a few trips before it became natural for me. The reversed throttle and prop lever took me a bit of extra care and attention to become used to it. Ive heard of more than one story of guys pulling back the prop, forgetting the reverse set up in the military versions. Not many kicking around anymore...as most have been changed out to civilian set up.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1311
- Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
- Location: The Gulag Archipelago
Re: Cat & Doc
No big FTB, the DC3 has the prop on the left, and throttles in the middle. It was pretty normal. If you watch the movie, The Longest Day, you'll notice the dip shits didn't do their homework. The pilots all advanced the prop levers on take off. Had this Racer driver ROTFLMFAO!!! Beech had their Travel Airs and older Barons set up the same way.....
Illya
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:36 am
- Location: CYPA
Re: Cat & Doc
Your dating yourself here Illya lolIllya Kuryakin wrote:No big FTB, the DC3 has the prop on the left, and throttles in the middle. It was pretty normal. If you watch the movie, The Longest Day, you'll notice the dip shits didn't do their homework. The pilots all advanced the prop levers on take off. Had this Racer driver ROTFLMFAO!!! Beech had their Travel Airs and older Barons set up the same way.....
Illya

Thanks for the info! I didn't know older Barons were set up that way?
My 1st experience with a "prop left" airplane was in a military DHC2. All my experience prior to flying a military -2 was C206, PA23-250, C414, PA31, etc...my point being, all set up throttles left. I never had the opportunity to fly the DC3 and didn't know it was common "in the old days" lol

Cheers!
FTB
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1311
- Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
- Location: The Gulag Archipelago
Re: Cat & Doc
Beech 18's are the same way I believe.
Illya
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:36 am
- Location: CYPA
Re: Cat & Doc
Yes they are...at least the couple I flew were. I just meant earlier in my career, the DHC2 was the 1st "reversed" quadrant set up id flown.Illya Kuryakin wrote:Beech 18's are the same way I believe.
Illya
Cheers Mate!
Re: Cat & Doc
I have been fortunate enough to fly with quite a few oldtimers in my career. Great stories and experience. Almost all were great guys to fly with. Like the population in general, there has been the occasional A**hole. This is not because they were like that due to being old and experienced. It is certain that they were the same type of person on their first flight. Whether posting on a forum or directly experiencing these occasional few in life, their personality type is obvious almost from the beginning.YYZSaabGuy wrote:A BIG +1 for me too. I'm nowhere near either PilotDAR or BPF from a licensing and rating standpoint - not even close. Like them, however, I believe respect is earned, not automatically accrued as a result of putting in time. The posters from whom I learn are the ones, like PilotDAR and BPF, and ifly, and complexintentions, and EricJanson, and treykule, and SSU, and Rockie, pelmet, RealityChex, photofly, and AuxBatOn (although we'll likely never agree on the F-35), who usually manage to subsume their personalities and stick to the real deal: presenting their experience, arguing logically, paying it forward without belittling or condescending to the rest of us.PilotDAR wrote:I'm not quite there for licenses and type ratings, but otherwise...
+1In less than 2 years I will celebrate my 40 th year as a pilot. I have every aeroplane license and rating you can get and 6 type ratings on transport category and/or high performance aircraft.
But
1) Just because I am an older guy I don't think I should automatically get respect for anything I say. I am happy to be judged by what I write and hopefully will influence others by the force and logic of my arguments not just because of the number of years I have been flying or the the numbers of hours I have.
2) Just because I am older guy doesn't mean I still can't learn from others, regardless of age or experience
3) I don't post for the guys that answer, I post for the 90 % of those who look but don't post. Throughout my time flying I was, and continue to be helped, by many others who took the time to explain/teach/challenge me. I hope my posts help pay that debt forward.
A nice contrast to the drama queen schtick frequently relied on by several of the more frequent posters mentioned in this thread.
But like I said, I have really enjoyed flying with most of these guys and learning from them along with those posting great technical info to learn from on this site.
Re: Cat & Doc
There are many people reading Avcanada that have no idea what a Canso is because that name for the PBY was a Canadian Airforce name for the PBY.
The PBY was built in several locations in Canada during WW2.
Generally I refer to the Canso as a PBY or the American name Catalina which most aviation people around the world recognize.
Not sure if its mentioned in this thread already but the real reason they are called a Canso is because they were built by Consolidated Aircraft
...isn't he the best pilot you've ever seen?....Yeah he is ....except when I'm shaving.........
- Shiny Side Up
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5335
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:02 pm
- Location: Group W bench
Re: Cat & Doc
Wiki disagrees with you. On two counts.fleet16b wrote: Not sure if its mentioned in this thread already but the real reason they are called a Canso is because they were built by Consolidated Aircraft

thus Canadian Vickers-built examples were designated PBV, Boeing Canada examples PB2B (there already being a Boeing PBB) and Naval Aircraft Factory examples were designated PBN. Canadian examples were named Canso by the Royal Canadian Air Force in accordance with contemporary British naming practice of naming seaplanes after coastal port towns, in this case for the town of Canso in Nova Scotia
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
Re: Cat & Doc
Hmmmm
Interesting but I am not sure if I believe everything on Wiki
My Dad was involved with Cansos in Northern Canada immediately after WW2
and he told me the name originated from Consolidated , the original manufacturer.
Seems quite coincidental that the RCAF would name it after a Town but the two sure fit their naming mandate
Interesting but I am not sure if I believe everything on Wiki
My Dad was involved with Cansos in Northern Canada immediately after WW2
and he told me the name originated from Consolidated , the original manufacturer.
Seems quite coincidental that the RCAF would name it after a Town but the two sure fit their naming mandate
...isn't he the best pilot you've ever seen?....Yeah he is ....except when I'm shaving.........
Re: Cat & Doc
http://books.google.ca/books?id=2WFte4v ... me&f=false
Different source.
Canadian's had to have their own name(like Aurora instead of Orion). Convoy was initially chosen but changed to Canso for the Strait of Canso, to avoid name problems with a Convoy protecting a convoy.
Different source.
Canadian's had to have their own name(like Aurora instead of Orion). Convoy was initially chosen but changed to Canso for the Strait of Canso, to avoid name problems with a Convoy protecting a convoy.
- Pop n Fresh
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1270
- Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:46 am
- Location: Freezer.
Re: Cat & Doc
Keep in mind Wikipedia would not allow a page for the Canadian guy that was credited with much of the engineering for the Canadarm.
- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Cat & Doc
Transport Canada thinks it is a CV14.
However in the broad scheme of things a PBY is generally known as a Catalina.
However in the broad scheme of things a PBY is generally known as a Catalina.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Cat & Doc
My longest non stop flight was in a PBY, nineteen hours and ten minutes.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1311
- Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
- Location: The Gulag Archipelago
Re: Cat & Doc
You're an old timer if...
You can tell me what a Cosmopolitan is.
Or, a Metropolitan.
Or a Dominie.
Or why ATC insists on calling a 748, an AVRO?
Illya
You can tell me what a Cosmopolitan is.
Or, a Metropolitan.
Or a Dominie.
Or why ATC insists on calling a 748, an AVRO?
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
Re: Cat & Doc
Illya. Good questions:
A Cosmopolitan was a Convair CV440, repowered with a Napier Eland engine and later Allison and flown by the RCAF/CAF.
The Metropolitan was the name airlines gave to the Convair CV440.
A Dominie was originally a DH 89 Dragon biplane built in England and later became the RAF name for the DH 125 jet (Now called a Hawker)
Avro Aircraft Co. designed and built what is now known as the HS 748.
Now if you are a true blue oldtimer;
What was a Narco Superhomer or Omnigator.
Or what type of navigation radio was required to do a Radio Range lost orientation. (required item on a commercial pilots flight test).
And try not let Cat Driver be the first to answer because we all know he not only knows but has had experiece with the above.
I have had experience with the backward throttle/ prop positions on the Beaver, the Beech 18 and Travelair and the only problem comes from those who overthink the situation. But when I was instructing in the early 60's, this was a concern with some students.
A Cosmopolitan was a Convair CV440, repowered with a Napier Eland engine and later Allison and flown by the RCAF/CAF.
The Metropolitan was the name airlines gave to the Convair CV440.
A Dominie was originally a DH 89 Dragon biplane built in England and later became the RAF name for the DH 125 jet (Now called a Hawker)
Avro Aircraft Co. designed and built what is now known as the HS 748.
Now if you are a true blue oldtimer;
What was a Narco Superhomer or Omnigator.
Or what type of navigation radio was required to do a Radio Range lost orientation. (required item on a commercial pilots flight test).
And try not let Cat Driver be the first to answer because we all know he not only knows but has had experiece with the above.
I have had experience with the backward throttle/ prop positions on the Beaver, the Beech 18 and Travelair and the only problem comes from those who overthink the situation. But when I was instructing in the early 60's, this was a concern with some students.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
- complexintentions
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2186
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
- Location: of my pants is unknown.
Re: Cat & Doc
Respect, oldtimer! I consider myself an aficionado of aviation history but I was reaching for the books to find the answers you piped up with immediately.
Were radio ranges not based on LFR frequencies, such as eventually became ADF's? While I flew many an NDB approach up north, I confess my only practical exposure to radio ranges is in books by the incomparable late Ernest Gann....
Were radio ranges not based on LFR frequencies, such as eventually became ADF's? While I flew many an NDB approach up north, I confess my only practical exposure to radio ranges is in books by the incomparable late Ernest Gann....
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
Re: Cat & Doc
The Range was known as the 4 course Adcock Radio Range system which was how all our present day low altitude GARB,BR1 airways were developes. Basically, there was a low frequency radio station with 4 antennas. each antenna transmitted either the letter A in mose code .- or the letter N -. in mose code. The transmmiting antenna was shielded so it would transmit only in a certain arc. When the A antenna was shielded so that it mixed in with the adjoining N, a very narrow solid tone was heard. Park an airport under one of the solid tone legs and you have an approach aid. All that was required in the airplane was a low frequency reciever, now replaced with an ADF. As one drifted slightly off course, one or the other morse code letter could be faintly detected so you were flying in either the twilight A or twilight N. If you, as the co-pilot, could make out either letter distinctly, the old guy in the left seat would not be happy. In the old days, you do not want to fly with a grumpy old guy. Always a guy, never a gal. That was before Lorna and other pioneer female pilots. The lost orientation was a procedure where you tuned to a radio range, found out if you were in the A or N, then turned to the average bisector for each quadrant, published on the CAP, turned the volumn down real low and listened. if the signal faded, you were flying away, if it got stronger, you were flying toward. Once through the on-couse steady tone, you turned 90 degrees. if you went further into the A or N, you knew what quadrant you were in. You were no longer lost, ypu were just out of gas. As a side note, the very last 4 course radio ranges in Canada were in Castelgar and Terrace.
Now my memory fades but if Cat Driver is reading this he would know, what twilight quadrant were you supposed to fly in, the twilight A or the twilight N?
Now my memory fades but if Cat Driver is reading this he would know, what twilight quadrant were you supposed to fly in, the twilight A or the twilight N?
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
Re: Cat & Doc
Narco Superhomer - isn't that an early one and a half navcom radio?
Navigation and communication were an either/or proposition with it - communicate or navigate, but not at the same time.
I flew an old C-150 straight tail "fast back" that had one.
I think Kapuskasing (YYU) had a range up until the end of that particular navigation era in Canada.
Navigation and communication were an either/or proposition with it - communicate or navigate, but not at the same time.
I flew an old C-150 straight tail "fast back" that had one.
I think Kapuskasing (YYU) had a range up until the end of that particular navigation era in Canada.
- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Cat & Doc
Think of the four range legs as aural roads in the sky.Now my memory fades but if Cat Driver is reading this he would know, what twilight quadrant were you supposed to fly in, the twilight A or the twilight N?
For simplicity lets arrange the legs N / S and E / W .....
Picture the N sectors in the NW quadrant and the SE quadrant, and the A sectors in the NE quadrant and the SW quadrant.
The roads are flown towards the Radio Range.
The road center is a solid hum tone and as you move to the sides of the road you hear a faint N or a faint A...the twilight zone...or edge of the road.
We flew on the right hand side of the road the same as driving on a paved road.
The Radio Range was actually quite simple to fly and understand.
As an aside in those days to get an instrument rating you had to be able to read the morse code on your flight test as the inspector changed stations.....if you could not read morse code your flight test never got off the ground.
The last radio range I flew was in the Yukon and I was flying the Douglas Racer a truly great airplane.
How the world has changed.....in those days we could fly the airways and find an airport and do an approach with nothing more complicated than an AM radio receiver you could carry in your hand.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Cat & Doc
Here is a question...
....which radio had whistle stop tuning?
....which radio had whistle stop tuning?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.