Dangerous practice coming from Europe

[photofly]

If you know the employees can't go anywhere until they have an ATPL, why bother paying anybody more than the minimum wage

You know, you all talk like nobody has any choice to be anything but an airline pilot. There are other ways to earn a living. If Mr or Ms. 200-hr CPL doesn't like the starting wages at an airline let them go and train to be plumber instead. If they were wise they should make that choice before spending the money on pilot training.

Ever tried being a strugging actor? Or musician? Why do pilots always think they're so damned special? Can you spell "the culture of entitlement"? :whistle:

[digits_]

If you know the employees can't go anywhere until they have an ATPL, why bother paying anybody more than the minimum wage

You know, you all talk like nobody has any choice to be anything but an airline pilot.

No, not at all. Just pointing out that the airlines have a positive effect on the working conditions in 702/703 operators. When do pilots generally move up in the ranks of a company ? When a more senior pilot leaves. Where does said pilot usually leave to ? The airlines. So the more people move up to the airlines, the better it is for the other pilots in the company.

If nobody can move for X years until they have their ATPL, it would slow down everyone's career, especially those who are planning to stay away from airlines.

[photofly]

I do wonder how things will work out in the US, with FO's now needing an ATPL, and the extra very expensive training requirements (classroom training, heavy sim time etc.) to get that ATPL. Are airlines likely to pay for the upgrade for new hires in addition to paying for a type rating?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Tell me please all you airline types that any company( the B737 A320 type) be it whatever(charter, sunny destinations et al) will not employ foreign pilots with just a CPL and 200hrs TT to occupy any seat up front flying us Canadians around to where ever.

No replies ? I wonder why.

[complexintentions]

You know, you all talk like nobody has any choice to be anything but an airline pilot. There are other ways to earn a living. If Mr or Ms. 200-hr CPL doesn't like the starting wages at an airline let them go and train to be plumber instead. If they were wise they should make that choice before spending the money on pilot training.

Ever tried being a strugging actor? Or musician? Why do pilots always think they're so damned special? Can you spell "the culture of entitlement"? :whistle:

Wow. I'm guessing you didn't exactly ace the "logic" portion of your time in school.

No, pilots are not special in the Millennial "I'm Special, Like a Snowflake" way.

But compared to actors and musicians, pilots are VERY special in

a. the amount they pay for their training, and the financial risk that entails; and
b. the amount of responsibility for actual lives their livelihood requires.

I don't doubt that actors and musicians struggle and work just as hard as pilots. But that's where the comparison ends.

Here's an actor having a bad day:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... bance.html

Here's a couple pilots having a bad day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5Z-7uoYAgU

Any more stupid non-parallels?

[ea306]

Tell me please all you airline types that any company( the B737 A320 type) be it whatever(charter, sunny destinations et al) will not employ foreign pilots with just a CPL and 200hrs TT to occupy any seat up front flying us Canadians around to where ever.

No replies ? I wonder why.

Perhaps it has not been worthy of responding to?

You well know that we have not had any CPL. 200 hour pilots with self funded type ratings join our ranks as is common in many EU airlines. None from the EU or Canada as far as I know...but you seem to be better connected to Sunwing Intel than myself...so maybe you know something...but not saying?

I get the concern... But what does that concern have to do with Sunwing?

I have given up responding to a lot of things on here... Not to discredit some of the valid concerns... But to include your dislike for Sunwing in with that concern doesn't give any validity to the concerns you may have.

Don't forget, we are hiring still. We are growing... Hiring many more Canadian Pilots and building a stronger future for all concerned. Wishing the same for your company too. We all want to see our careers protected and see the opportunies extended to more of our fellow Canadian pilots.


Back to lurking....

[Gilles Hudicourt]

You well know that we have not had any CPL. 200 hour pilots with self funded type ratings join our ranks as is common in many EU airlines. None from the EU or Canada as far as I know...but you seem to be better connected to Sunwing Intel than myself...so maybe you know something...but not saying?

I get the concern... But what does that concern have to do with Sunwing?

I have given up responding to a lot of things on here... Not to discredit some of the valid concerns... But to include your dislike for Sunwing in with that concern doesn't give any validity to the concerns you may have.

The poster did not ask if any 200 hour CPL self funded pilot joined Sunwing but if any of the TFW pilots contracted by Sunwing fit that description. It had never crossed my mind in the past, but I think it's a valid question. Did any of your TFW, hired instead of Canadians, just have CPL ? I will find out.

I do not have a dislike for Sunwing but I have a extreme dislike for everything Sunwing does to favor Foreign pilots over Canadians.

This year to crew the 37 aircraft that Sunwing deployed, you have your 210 or so full time pilots, the 40 to 50 Canadian seasonal pilots pilots that you hired, the 110 to 120 TFW pilot you contracted from Europe plus the 70 to 80 Czech pilots that are in Canada flying the 5 aircraft you wet leased from Travel Service.

ESDC has officially stated that next winter, no Canadian company will be allowed to favor TFW pilots over Canadian pilot by using the lack of Type Rating as justification. Yet this year, it is exactly by using that justification that Sunwing obtained those 120 LMOs.

So the question I ask myself is the following:

Assuming Sunwing will not once again expand and operate just 37 aircraft next winter, and assuming again that it employs all the present Canadian seasonal pilots and again wet-leases 5 aircraft from Europe, it will be 120 pilots short for next winter. Where they come from ?

If I had noticed that Sunwing was hiring and training pilots, to prepare for that shortfall of 120 pilots for next year, I would not even be on here writing. But they are not hiring are they ?

It takes two months for Sunwing to hire and train a 737 pilot. In order to have 120 extra pilots ready by Dec 20 of 2015, the last one need to be hired by Oct 20 2015. So that leaves 8 and a half months to hire and train a minimum of 120 pilots. That comes out to 14 new pilots a month. A lot of training. A lot of simulator time. A lot of line indoctrination.

Is Sunwing hiring 14 pilots a month right now ? Not that I've heard. Which is why I worry and speculated on their next dirty trick. Because if they are not hiring 14 pilots a month, they have a dirty trick up their sleeve.

Unless you can tell me something I don't know and that will allow me to relax ?

Air Transat now has 33 aircraft (not all of which are flying) and employs about 470 full time Canadian pilots. We also Wet-Lease two additional aircraft, not from Europe but from Canjet.
Sunwing which has 37 aircraft employs about 260 Canadian pilots.

How long are you going to use the excuse that the Foreign pilots are allowing more Canadian pilots to be employed. That is BS. The only thing that the Foreign Pilots increase is the bottom line in the pockets of the Shareholders, at the expense of those Canadian pilots that were not hired.

You are fed up with reading my posts. I am fed up with having to post these same facts over and over and over.

[photofly]

No, pilots are not special in the Millennial "I'm Special, Like a Snowflake" way.

But compared to actors and musicians, pilots are VERY special in ...

You can continue to make arguments about why pilots ARE special, why they deserve more, should be paid more, how it's unfair that they're not... or you can finish beating your head against a wall and open your eyes to the real world.

For as long as there are more people who want to fly airplanes than there are people needed to fly them, pilots will continue to be paid a pittance. Just like actors and musicians. So no, pilots are not special. Pilot salaries are governed by the same basic economics as everyone else. Not special at all.

The inability of some to accept this basic fact is probably the biggest impediment to progress!

[ea306]

but certain airlines in Europe have found a way to circumnavigate that obstacle by not charging the pilots directly for their training, but by hiring pilots only from a particular training outfit that provided type ratings for a fee.

At least TC "forbids" to buy a 705 type rating or recurrent in a training organisation in Canada. You have to be employed by a company. Unfortunately I don't have a reference to back that up. In any case, I'm sure there's a way circumvent that if push comes to shove.

Tell me please all you airline types that any company( the B737 A320 type) be it whatever(charter, sunny destinations et al) will not employ foreign pilots with just a CPL and 200hrs TT to occupy any seat up front flying us Canadians around to where ever.

Gilles, it was this posters question that I was referring to.

I have never heard of such having flown for Sunwing.

But I do know of a couple Canadians who have been given the opportunity with not much more than that.. Closer to the 1000 hour mark. Good for them...but certainly not the norm and not recently that I'm aware of.


As for pilot hiring. Our pilot group have been told by management that the hiring will continue. We are upgrading another bunch this year for next winter season.... Our Core Fleet is doubling over the next three years from 11 to 22 aircraft.... So yes you can expect further growth...and further hiring.

But that is not what his thread was about...and that is why I ask why bring Sunwing into this?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I already explained that to another who asked the same question. This thread was about P2F and pilots paying for their Type ratings. I happen to have a Sunwing 2012 LMO application (that I posted here) where Sunwing argues that pilots Paying for their own Type Ratings is the norm in many Airlines in Europe and elsewhere as an argument for requiring Type Ratings here in Canada.

Again, if I knew that Sunwing was hiring 14 pilots a month as of now, I would not be speculating on how they were going to crew their fleet next year.
The simple and straightforward method would be to hire and train a bunch of Canadian pilots to plan for next year. But that is not the Sunwing way is it ?

[mantogasrsrwy]

And Sunwing continues to take your market share. At least Sunwing doesn't discriminate with their hiring practices.

[Old fella]

Question. Why does any Canadian Airline, flying(for the most part), Canadian registered aircraft, from Canadian cities, flying Canadian citizens to their sunny destinations need to employ foreign licenced pilots to fill their requirements. Lots of Canadians around who could do those jobs, needless to say always has, is now and will be. My heydays were the 70’s and 80’s and cannot remember this (foreign pilots) being an issue in the airline industry, then again I may be wrong if any old timers wish to correct me. I do remember beating around in Newfoundland years back and EPA (based in Gander at the time) leased a B737 from Aer Lingus and it still has the green shamrock on the tail. Lots of commentary over the frequencies, funny stuff to. Now there was plenty of Newfie twang from the upfront lads but don’t remember any thick Irish brogue.

I trust this question may be worth responding to.

[gonnabeapilot]

Question. Why does any Canadian Airline, flying(for the most part), Canadian registered aircraft, from Canadian cities, flying Canadian citizens to their sunny destinations need to employ foreign licenced pilots to fill their requirements. Lots of Canadians around who could do those jobs, needless to say always has, is now and will be. My heydays were the 70’s and 80’s and cannot remember this (foreign pilots) being an issue in the airline industry, then again I may be wrong if any old timers wish to correct me. I do remember beating around in Newfoundland years back and EPA (based in Gander at the time) leased a B737 from Aer Lingus and it still has the green shamrock on the tail. Lots of commentary over the frequencies, funny stuff to. Now there was plenty of Newfie twang from the upfront lads but don’t remember any thick Irish brogue.

I trust this question may be worth responding to.

I'll answer your question with another question.... (and apologies to Gilles as I don't really want to take this thread too far off topic) How often in the heydays of the 70's and 80's did you see code-share flights and international alliances?? My understanding is that at the time, most airlines operated all of their flights on their own metal. Companies such as Sunwing may bring in European pilots and aircraft to meet their peak travel demands but companies such as Air Canada and WestJet leverage international alliances and code-sharing to do essentially the same thing. The "WestJet" ticket you book from Toronto to Miami could very well be on a Canadian airline using an American registered aircraft with American pilots to fly Canadian citizens from a Canadian city to a sunny destination. One could argue that WestJet might only be able to sell 70 seats on this flight and therefore a code share is justified to meet the peak demand on the route when a WestJet 737 isn't quite warranted. Or one could argue that American pilots are being used to steal Canadian jobs as WestJet could just as easily operate Canadian registered 70 seat jets with Canadian pilots to operate the same flight (or better yet, a WestJet 737 with Canadian pilots and have American code share the excess capacity seats on the Canadian aircraft!)

The funny thing is, I never hear people refer to WestJet's US code shares or Air Canada's partnership with United through the Star Alliance as something that steals Canadian jobs.... but that's exactly what it is. People fixate on the issue of European pilots showing up for 5 months of the year to operate for Canadian operators and ignore the hundreds of flights annually that WestJet and Air Canada could potentially operate with their own metal but instead farm out to their code-share partners. I would argue it is better for an airline to bring in 2 European pilots who are evaluated by Canadian check pilots and will operate a Canadian registered aircraft employing Canadian Flight Attendants, Canadian Maintenance Engineers, Canadian Dispatchers and Canadian support staff than for the same airline to farm out the same flight as a code share to a US (or international partner) with no insight into the qualifications of the crew and that will employ absolutely ZERO Canadians. Sadly, this is an argument that people on here seem to ignore. Aviation has gone international and the labour market has gone with it. ALL airlines EVERYWHERE leverage international partnerships to manage capacity and maximize their reach. Sunwing is no different. To try and bring this post back onto topic of the thread..... If the day ever comes where a low time European pay to fly pilot shows up at Sunwing, I will feel much better knowing that they are flying the Canadian public around after having gone through a training/checking process overseen by Transport Canada approved, Canadian check pilots than I will hopping on an Air Canada/WestJet code-share flight operated by a random US regional airline with a low time pay to fly pilot in the right seat of that aircraft with absolutely no oversight what so ever by anyone in Canada.

[complexintentions]

No, pilots are not special in the Millennial "I'm Special, Like a Snowflake" way.

But compared to actors and musicians, pilots are VERY special in ...

You can continue to make arguments about why pilots ARE special, why they deserve more, should be paid more, how it's unfair that they're not... or you can finish beating your head against a wall and open your eyes to the real world.

For as long as there are more people who want to fly airplanes than there are people needed to fly them, pilots will continue to be paid a pittance. Just like actors and musicians. So no, pilots are not special. Pilot salaries are governed by the same basic economics as everyone else. Not special at all.

The inability of some to accept this basic fact is probably the biggest impediment to progress!

Way off base. You were the one who went on some weird rant about entitlement and pointless comparisons to completely unrelated fields. Not me.

Don't try and quote things I never said, that's just a tactic of the weak. I never said a word about unfairness, nor am I beating my head against a wall. I long ago realized that there was an oversupply of pilots in Canada so I went other places in the Real World and I can assure you I earn more than a pittance. I've never complained about low pay in the beginning, I used it to get where I am now.

Your description of pilot supply and demand is laughably simplistic. Wages do not increase in lockstep with decreased pilot supply and vice versa. But whatever, if that helps you to understand your worldview then I guess it has some value.

Sorry, but jobs that involve large amounts of responsibility for human lives are special, and almost always correlate to higher earning. If you wish to denigrate them by placing them in the same category as entertainers, you deserve the pay that goes along with the same level of respect.

Either way, doesn't matter to me.

Back on topic. Agree or disagree with Gilles - it would still be very interesting to know what Sunwing will do, actually, if their supply of TFW pilots is removed from them and they aren't training their own hires? Maybe they're going to sub it out to another Canadian carrier with excess capacity like oh, I dunno, any number of companies in Alberta these days?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Tell me please all you airline types that any company( the B737 A320 type) be it whatever(charter, sunny destinations et al) will not employ foreign pilots with just a CPL and 200hrs TT to occupy any seat up front flying us Canadians around to where ever.

It seems that when Canadian airlines request FLVCs on behalf of Foreign licenced pilots to fly commercially in Canada, Transport Canada does not require the foreign pilots to submit the number of hours they have flown or the experience they have. All they ask for is the Type of Licence they hold, the country of issue, their Ratings and the date of their last Medical.

I just invested $5.00 into finding out what type of Licence the 2014 batch had.

[aerosexual]

Gonnabeapilot, very well put. The globalization of pilot jobs is very real, and you bring up an excellent example. It is up to us as Canadian airline pilots to ensure the risks associated with companies trying to take advantage of such practices that safety and other factors aren't diluted.

Gilles, in the interest of transparency, it would be appreciated if you could get a report from Air Transat to see how many pilots it has hired in the past without ATPL's signed off.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles, in the interest of transparency, it would be appreciated if you could get a report from Air Transat to see how many pilots it has hired in the past without ATPL's signed off.

With pleasure, if in the interest of the same transparency, you do the same, to include Sunwing contract pilots

[aerosexual]

I'll be honest, I'm not too keen on going to my management and asking for something that I will then post on AvCanada. Not to avoid the issue though, yes Sunwing has hired a small number of copilots without ATPL's signed off. The point being that with proper checks and balances, this is not a safety concern, nor is it any different from Air Transat, Air Canada, Jazz, Canjet, etc hiring qualified CPL's for the right seat.

[True North]

I'll answer your question with another question.... (and apologies to Gilles as I don't really want to take this thread too far off topic) How often in the heydays of the 70's and 80's did you see code-share flights and international alliances?? My understanding is that at the time, most airlines operated all of their flights on their own metal. Companies such as Sunwing may bring in European pilots and aircraft to meet their peak travel demands but companies such as Air Canada and WestJet leverage international alliances and code-sharing to do essentially the same thing. The "WestJet" ticket you book from Toronto to Miami could very well be on a Canadian airline using an American registered aircraft with American pilots to fly Canadian citizens from a Canadian city to a sunny destination. One could argue that WestJet might only be able to sell 70 seats on this flight and therefore a code share is justified to meet the peak demand on the route when a WestJet 737 isn't quite warranted. Or one could argue that American pilots are being used to steal Canadian jobs as WestJet could just as easily operate Canadian registered 70 seat jets with Canadian pilots to operate the same flight (or better yet, a WestJet 737 with Canadian pilots and have American code share the excess capacity seats on the Canadian aircraft!)

The funny thing is, I never hear people refer to WestJet's US code shares or Air Canada's partnership with United through the Star Alliance as something that steals Canadian jobs.... but that's exactly what it is. People fixate on the issue of European pilots showing up for 5 months of the year to operate for Canadian operators and ignore the hundreds of flights annually that WestJet and Air Canada could potentially operate with their own metal but instead farm out to their code-share partners. I would argue it is better for an airline to bring in 2 European pilots who are evaluated by Canadian check pilots and will operate a Canadian registered aircraft employing Canadian Flight Attendants, Canadian Maintenance Engineers, Canadian Dispatchers and Canadian support staff than for the same airline to farm out the same flight as a code share to a US (or international partner) with no insight into the qualifications of the crew and that will employ absolutely ZERO Canadians. Sadly, this is an argument that people on here seem to ignore. Aviation has gone international and the labour market has gone with it. ALL airlines EVERYWHERE leverage international partnerships to manage capacity and maximize their reach. Sunwing is no different. To try and bring this post back onto topic of the thread..... If the day ever comes where a low time European pay to fly pilot shows up at Sunwing, I will feel much better knowing that they are flying the Canadian public around after having gone through a training/checking process overseen by Transport Canada approved, Canadian check pilots than I will hopping on an Air Canada/WestJet code-share flight operated by a random US regional airline with a low time pay to fly pilot in the right seat of that aircraft with absolutely no oversight what so ever by anyone in Canada.

Wow. Another brilliant example of why pilots should stick to flying airplanes and leave the business end to people who actually understand how it works.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I am not concerned about anyone hiring Canadian CPLs.
What would be bad is not hiring, say a 10,000 hour Canadian ATPL pilot without a 737 type rating but with thousands of hours of jet time, and claiming a TFW with a self funded Type Rating, a CPL, and 500 hours (P2F) was better qualified and hiring him instead......

[gonnabeapilot]

Wow. Another brilliant example of why pilots should stick to flying airplanes and leave the business end to people who actually understand how it works.

Since you seem to consider yourself one of these people I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you could enlighten us to your view point. You don't think a flight operated by United Express that Air Canada code-shares on couldn't be operated by Jazz instead? You don't think an American airlines flight that WestJet code-shares on couldn't be operated by WestJet instead? These airlines look at their route structures and make business decisions on who is best suited to operate which metal to which destination in order to maximize the reach of their networks with minimal costs (the trans-Atlantic Joint Venture between AC, United and Lufthansa is probably the best example of this). However each time the decision is made to share a route where the flight is operated by a non-Canadian aircraft that is going to prevent Canadian pilots from being hired to fly that route. If you want to argue that Sunwing is an evil scourge on Canadian pilot employment because they use European crews to operate Canadian registered airplanes to maximize their route network, I don't see how you can't also argue that Air Canada and WestJet are also evil scourges on Canadian pilot employment because they both rely so heavily on code-shares that utilize non Canadian aircraft to support their international/trans border networks....

[True North]

Wow. Another brilliant example of why pilots should stick to flying airplanes and leave the business end to people who actually understand how it works.

Since you seem to consider yourself one of these people I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you could enlighten us to your view point. You don't think a flight operated by United Express that Air Canada code-shares on couldn't be operated by Jazz instead? You don't think an American airlines flight that WestJet code-shares on couldn't be operated by WestJet instead? These airlines look at their route structures and make business decisions on who is best suited to operate which metal to which destination in order to maximize the reach of their networks with minimal costs (the trans-Atlantic Joint Venture between AC, United and Lufthansa is probably the best example of this). However each time the decision is made to share a route where the flight is operated by a non-Canadian aircraft that is going to prevent Canadian pilots from being hired to fly that route. If you want to argue that Sunwing is an evil scourge on Canadian pilot employment because they use European crews to operate Canadian registered airplanes to maximize their route network, I don't see how you can't also argue that Air Canada and WestJet are also evil scourges on Canadian pilot employment because they both rely so heavily on code-shares that utilize non Canadian aircraft to support their international/trans border networks....

That fact that you are trying to equate code sharing at Air Canada and WestJet with the TFW program at Sunwing says a great deal about your state of mind and how far you will go to justify your position. Absolutely ludicrous.

You think that both AC and WJ should just fly all those code shared routes with their own metal, "hundreds" of flights you say. Maybe they figured out the population base in the Canadian cities they want to connect to the US won't quite support the route, and they already know Americans are a particularly patriotic bunch and will book on any American carrier before they book on a Canadian one. Maybe they know that going head to head with American or Delta or any number of other US carriers would be a bloodbath and a losing proposition. Maybe there are no good slots left at the airport they want to go to and entering into a partnership will gain them some decent slots. Maybe they want to offer connections from the far east to more Canadian destinations in their network but don't have the airframes to bring those people to Canada. And code sharing means exactly that, sharing so guess what, that route you cited being flown by American Express is also flow by Jazz they just don't overlap, to their mutual benefit.

I have seen numbers for both AC and WJ with regard to the revenue they generate from code sharing, and it is a substantial number for both. That money helps them add more Canadian registered airframes to the their fleet and hire more full time Canadian pilots.

WestJet has been hiring full time Canadian pilots for 20 years straight. With a couple of bumps in the road, Air Canada has been doing the same for about 70 years. Tell me again how that is the same as Sunwing employing a bunch of foreigners?

[aerosexual]

Wow. Another brilliant example of why pilots should stick to flying airplanes and leave the business end to people who actually understand how it works.

Since you seem to consider yourself one of these people I'm sure we'd all appreciate it if you could enlighten us to your view point. You don't think a flight operated by United Express that Air Canada code-shares on couldn't be operated by Jazz instead? You don't think an American airlines flight that WestJet code-shares on couldn't be operated by WestJet instead? These airlines look at their route structures and make business decisions on who is best suited to operate which metal to which destination in order to maximize the reach of their networks with minimal costs (the trans-Atlantic Joint Venture between AC, United and Lufthansa is probably the best example of this). However each time the decision is made to share a route where the flight is operated by a non-Canadian aircraft that is going to prevent Canadian pilots from being hired to fly that route. If you want to argue that Sunwing is an evil scourge on Canadian pilot employment because they use European crews to operate Canadian registered airplanes to maximize their route network, I don't see how you can't also argue that Air Canada and WestJet are also evil scourges on Canadian pilot employment because they both rely so heavily on code-shares that utilize non Canadian aircraft to support their international/trans border networks....

That fact that you are trying to equate code sharing at Air Canada and WestJet with the TFW program at Sunwing says a great deal about your state of mind and how far you will go to justify your position. Absolutely ludicrous.

You think that both AC and WJ should just fly all those code shared routes with their own metal, "hundreds" of flights you say. Maybe they figured out the population base in the Canadian cities they want to connect to the US won't quite support the route, and they already know Americans are a particularly patriotic bunch and will book on any American carrier before they book on a Canadian one. Maybe they know that going head to head with American or Delta or any number of other US carriers would be a bloodbath and a losing proposition. Maybe there are no good slots left at the airport they want to go to and entering into a partnership will gain them some decent slots. Maybe they want to offer connections from the far east to more Canadian destinations in their network but don't have the airframes to bring those people to Canada. And code sharing means exactly that, sharing so guess what, that route you cited being flown by American Express is also flow by Jazz they just don't overlap, to their mutual benefit.

I have seen numbers for both AC and WJ with regard to the revenue they generate from code sharing, and it is a substantial number for both. That money helps them add more Canadian registered airframes to the their fleet and hire more full time Canadian pilots.

WestJet has been hiring full time Canadian pilots for 20 years straight. With a couple of bumps in the road, Air Canada has been doing the same for about 70 years. Tell me again how that is the same as Sunwing employing a bunch of foreigners?

You accuse gonnabeapilot of justifying what's going on at Sunwing, yet you dismiss and undermine his points, and then go on a large justification tangent yourself with respect to code-sharing. As far as I can tell you even went as far as to prove his point.

This isn't me justifying the use of TFW pilots at Sunwing, but you can be sure that Air Canada and Westjet have done FAR more harm to the terms and conditions of Canadian pilots lately than Sunwing has. All you have to do is look at rouge, Sky Regional, Encore, Air Georgian, and yes some of the US code shares in place to see the damage. I'm not justifying it, but please let's keep things in perspective.

And for the 10 years of its existence, Sunwing has done a pretty damn good job of providing lucrative and secure jobs for Canadian pilots. Not too bad for an unknown charter airline not too long ago.

[True North]

[quote="aerosexual"][/quote]You accuse gonnabeapilot of justifying what's going on at Sunwing, yet you dismiss and undermine his points,

Of course I dismiss his points, he's dead wrong.

...and then go on a large justification tangent yourself with respect to code-sharing. As far as I can tell you even went as far as to prove his point.

Really? Do tell. You aren't going to try and tell me how code sharing is bad too, are you?

This isn't me justifying the use of TFW pilots at Sunwing,

Yes, it most certainly is. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

...but you can be sure that Air Canada and Westjet have done FAR more harm to the terms and conditions of Canadian pilots lately than Sunwing has. All you have to do is look at rouge, Sky Regional, Encore, Air Georgian, and yes some of the US code shares in place to see the damage. I'm not justifying it, but please let's keep things in perspective.

I was debating the merits of code sharing. rouge, Sky Regional , Encore, Air Georgian are not part of this discussion. Try to stay on point.

And for the 10 years of its existence, Sunwing has done a pretty damn good job of providing lucrative and secure jobs for Canadian pilots. Not too bad for an unknown charter airline not too long ago.

Except they could provide more if they hired Canadian pilots instead of foreigners, like everyone else. I'm pretty sure that's the point.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Many of the Canadian 250 hr CPL MEIFR Wannabe's with SJS will pay for their own type rating and work for almost nothing if it means that they can go straight to the right seat of a jet, experienced pilots want to make a decent wage in recognition of the skills they bring to the job and expect the employer to provide the necessary training. It is therefore inevitable that airlines will want to pursue a "pay the airline for your training and work for crap wages" approach to future staffing.

Jetsgo has already proved this model can be made to work in Canada.......