Encore - Not Worth It

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Ypilot
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by Ypilot »

Inverted2 wrote:The simple solution is for everyone to not accept such pathetic wages but the problem is there will be 20 guys behind you who will.

You will have 100 guys under 1500 hours willing to go for it... Over 1500 hours, not many for such ridiculous wages.

The question is:
How come 705 can legally hire FOs of less 1500 hours?
South of our border, you can't anymore. The industry will lower the standards and safety if they have to.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Inverted2 wrote:The simple solution is for everyone to not accept such pathetic wages but the problem is there will be 20 guys behind you who will.

Okay, I missed your point. You should grab the pathetic wages, to beat the 20 guys behind you? The problem is the guy at the front of the line taking the job. Is that you? Don't let the guys behind you influence you. If you don't like the pitch, don't swing your bat.
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indieadventurer
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by indieadventurer »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Inverted2 wrote:The simple solution is for everyone to not accept such pathetic wages but the problem is there will be 20 guys behind you who will.

Okay, I missed your point. You should grab the pathetic wages, to beat the 20 guys behind you? The problem is the guy at the front of the line taking the job. Is that you? Don't let the guys behind you influence you. If you don't like the pitch, don't swing your bat.
Illya
It didn't sound like that was his point, just pointed out the problem, which is the regionals will continue to lower their requirements as long as they can so there are 20 guys behind you willing to take the position. For example, I think Jazz's requirements (and others) have changed. Their latest posting lists no minimum number of hours, just a preference for 1500 TT with an ATPL.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Somebody has to know.
What do Encore copilots make? Captains?
Some American carriers pay less than 20K for right seaters.
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rocket81
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by rocket81 »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:Somebody has to know.
What do Encore copilots make? Captains?
Some American carriers pay less than 20K for right seaters.
Illya
At this time Encore FOs make 36k, but management is planning for wages to go down 32k this summer, who knows what is the next step?
On initial training I heard they pay with perdiems and you have to manage for your own accommodations.

American carriers used to have 250 hours wannabes a.k.a sand bags...
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trey kule
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by trey kule »


American carriers used to have 250 hours wannabes a.k.a sand bags...
Yep...until they killed enough people that the FAA had to step in. Airline management putting profit before safety, and pretending experience is not necessary. Just fill the seat with someone willing to work for nothing.

Expect it to happen here as well. It will take TC to intervene AFTER. The accidents.

Sorry for the thread drift..good thread
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indieadventurer
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by indieadventurer »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:Somebody has to know.
What do Encore copilots make? Captains?
Some American carriers pay less than 20K for right seaters.
Illya
Don't have the year over year figures right in front of me but it's a 5 year pay scale. The 80 hr min guarantee is in effect until end of June 2015.

FO starts at $38.97/hr with about a 4.3% increase each year
CPT starts at $70.91/hr with about a 2.7% increase each year

So with the 80 hrs/month guarantee first year FO will see $37.4k/yr. If it goes down to 70 hours/month, it'll drop to $32.7k/yr.
First year CPT $68k/yr at 80 hrs/month and at 70 hrs/month $59.6k/yr.

Per diem is only paid during training if you are away from your base, like for sim training. (Don't think this has changed but could be wrong) and yes, you have to find your own accommodations during gs.

What worries me going forward is the downward pressure the new Jazz wages will put on FO wages here.
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by anonymity »

indieadventurer,
It sounds like you are an FO at Encore or wanting to be, based on your concern of dropping wages. If you are a current FO, you have no one to blame but yourself, you and all the pilots that accepted the starting wages at Encore, Sky and GGN(RJ division) are to blame for the Jazz wages.
We had no choice but to compete or die, so put the blame where it belongs, yourselves!
Here's an idea, go to truck driving school and get a job that pays a living wage until something better comes along, I can say this because that's what I did.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by iflyforpie »

trey kule wrote:

American carriers used to have 250 hours wannabes a.k.a sand bags...
Yep...until they killed enough people that the FAA had to step in. Airline management putting profit before safety, and pretending experience is not necessary. Just fill the seat with someone willing to work for nothing.

Expect it to happen here as well. It will take TC to intervene AFTER. The accidents.

Sorry for the thread drift..good thread

The pilots of Colgan Dash in Buffalo all met the new experience requirements.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by shimmydampner »

anonymity wrote: you have no one to blame but yourself, you and all the pilots that accepted the starting wages at Encore, Sky and GGN(RJ division) are to blame for the Jazz wages.
We had no choice but to compete or die, so put the blame where it belongs, yourselves!
Here's an idea, go to truck driving school and get a job that pays a living wage until something better comes along, I can say this because that's what I did.
Oh my god. So it's everyone else's fault for the situation you're in? Everyone else is to blame? Maybe you should have a good cry and go back to driving truck and wait for things to get better. Sounds like you need a time out anyway.
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indieadventurer
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by indieadventurer »

Wow struck the wrong chord with somebody. Listen, I'm not blaming Jazz or any other company. It's a cycle and it'll go back and forth until something gives, probably the supply of qualified pilots, but the meaning of qualified can change too :rolleyes:
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Inverted2
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by Inverted2 »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Inverted2 wrote:The simple solution is for everyone to not accept such pathetic wages but the problem is there will be 20 guys behind you who will.

Okay, I missed your point. You should grab the pathetic wages, to beat the 20 guys behind you? The problem is the guy at the front of the line taking the job. Is that you? Don't let the guys behind you influence you. If you don't like the pitch, don't swing your bat.
Illya
I think you misunderstood my post comrade! :roll:
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by anonymity »

Well Shimmy, as far as I can tell you have no horse in this race and according to one of your recent post, pilots accepting low wages hasn't prevented you from earning a good living, good for you. Apparently you're quite happy to stay up north, not everyone's cup o tea however there is a reason they pay more.
As for me needing a cry and a time out, I'm just fine, I've been flying for over two decades and have enough seniority that I won't be affected by this new contract. I've grown tired of all the hypocrites blaming Jazz pilots for the current environment we find ourselves in. In 2009 we voted 98% in favor of a strike to protect the hard earned industry leading wawcons and as a big thank you, Sky regional was spawned, Pilots lined up for those bottom feeder wages and conditions. Then WJ decided that they too would lower the standard and pilots lined up for that one too, so NO Jazz pilots are not to blame for this and I resent it very much when someone who is clearly part of the problem tries to lay blame on Jazz pilots, implied or otherwise!
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rocket81
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by rocket81 »

Fighting and blaming each other won't be of any help.

Obviously AC and WJ managements have a plan that includes profits without sharing it to the regional employees.

Even if pilots stick together, they will still find way to screw us.
We can all see it coming, more profits for them, less money for pilots.

It is time to think of new strategies and gather as professionals.
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Sky_Conqueror
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by Sky_Conqueror »

In regards to the 250 Hours in the US; they shot themselves in the foot. Allot of companies south of the border are finding it difficult to find qualified 1500tt guys. Some air carriers had to cancel some of their routes. And its only going to get worst. Less people are entering aviation as a career due to high training costs and those goddamn 1500TT. It seems that the industry has highly contributed to making its own pilot shortage of experience. I can't wait to see it all crash and burn. I have seen more guys with less than 1000 hours fly better than 2000 hour people. Thats a fact...and I see it everyday.
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rocket81
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by rocket81 »

Sky_Conqueror wrote: I have seen more guys with less than 1000 hours fly better than 2000 hour people. Thats a fact...and I see it everyday.
So when those fine 1000 hrs pilots reach 2000 they fly less good?
That is the stupidest statement I have ever heard and not my experience.
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by Diadem »

Sky_Conqueror wrote:In regards to the 250 Hours in the US; they shot themselves in the foot. Allot of companies south of the border are finding it difficult to find qualified 1500tt guys. Some air carriers had to cancel some of their routes. And its only going to get worst. Less people are entering aviation as a career due to high training costs and those goddamn 1500TT. It seems that the industry has highly contributed to making its own pilot shortage of experience. I can't wait to see it all crash and burn. I have seen more guys with less than 1000 hours fly better than 2000 hour people. Thats a fact...and I see it everyday.
And that should motivate them to improve their WAWCON. If they don't have enough pilots to fly their routes, they have to offer enough to draw experienced guys from other companies.
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trey kule
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by trey kule »




The pilots of Colgan Dash in Buffalo all met the new experience requirements.
To be clear, I was not referring specifically to the Colgan crash, but rather to the large vol of TSB reports on such incidents as porposing a 737 or running off the runway. Not just major accidents.
The Colgan Crash was pretty much the trigger for change.


The problem is if you start with someone with 250!hours and no experience, they really don't get the necessary flying experience and deeply entrenched skills by warming the right seat. And of course there are exceptions. But they are.....well, exceptions, not the rule

As to the other post regarding some pilots who fly better at 1000 hours than others at 2000, of course. What is your point? Hopefully that is what the selection process for an airline trys to determine before hiring. And again, you can only have so much experience at 250 hrs...superstars excluded, though in self assessment, most 250 hr pilots would catagorize themselves as a superstar.
Yes, the US airlines blew smoke up the administrator's butt with regard to pretending a great training program would compensate for a lack of experience. And unfortunately, there has to be accidents or incidents before the regulator can effect change.

And yep, now the new plan is to get your time instructing on a 172 to qualify, and then go direct...we will see how that plays out.
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by AirMail »

rocket81 wrote:
Sky_Conqueror wrote: I have seen more guys with less than 1000 hours fly better than 2000 hour people. Thats a fact...and I see it everyday.
So when those fine 1000 hrs pilots reach 2000 they fly less good?
That is the stupidest statement I have ever heard and not my experience.

I retired at 1000 hrs, the peak of my career!
indieadventurer wrote: So with the 80 hrs/month guarantee first year FO will see $37.4k/yr. If it goes down to 70 hours/month, it'll drop to $32.7k/yr.
First year CPT $68k/yr at 80 hrs/month and at 70 hrs/month $59.6k/yr.
Those are disgusting figures, more so if it does go to 70 hr mths. I have a bunch of closets I'd be willing to rent out to the FOs
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

When the concept of Encore was first announced I said I'd join for $250k and at least 15 days off a month. I stand by that. :lol:
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by goingnowherefast »

I make more than that flying bagged out King Airs. Why would you accept that pay for a shiny new Q400 with 78 people in the back?
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by CPLMike89 »

goingnowherefast wrote:I make more than that flying bagged out King Airs. Why would you accept that pay for a shiny new Q400 with 78 people in the back?
Ditto, I make Encore CAPTAIN pay flying Caravans and Navajos DAY VFR! Give your head a shake guys and gals and demand what your worth. 36k right seat in a Q400 is a joke no matter what way you look at it, last I checked the bank still doesn't accept 705 time for down payments.

Mike
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by Kosiw »

What most Encore FOs (and soon new Jazz FOs), wont admit, is just really how much financial aid they get from the Bank of Mom and Dad for the priviledge of working for these airlines. Co-signed loans, rent, groceries, car payments, gas money, the list is long. Not a short term thing either, just look at the first 4 yr payscales for both, quite a burden for families. Encore and Jazz management should be thanking the parents of their slave wage employees, its the only way this plan will work.
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by godsrcrazy »

goingnowherefast wrote:I make more than that flying bagged out King Airs. Why would you accept that pay for a shiny new Q400 with 78 people in the back?
What does how many people in the back have to do with pay. I don't really care how many people are in the back. I fly the same way if its people or bags. Its my butt i am out to keep alive and i don't have to sweat when the freight walks on. By the way i don't agree with the wage structure either. The bottom line always counts as you can't survive if your not profitable. Personally i think WestJet has lost focus. Their goal use to be look after the customers and the staff. Now it seems to all be about the bottom line.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Encore - Not Worth It

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

CPLMike89 wrote:
goingnowherefast wrote:I make more than that flying bagged out King Airs. Why would you accept that pay for a shiny new Q400 with 78 people in the back?
Ditto, I make Encore CAPTAIN pay flying Caravans and Navajos DAY VFR! Give your head a shake guys and gals and demand what your worth. 36k right seat in a Q400 is a joke no matter what way you look at it, last I checked the bank still doesn't accept 705 time for down payments.

Mike
Ah Mike, that's not really the point now, is it. You're saying a guy should make MORE money than you, for doing LESS? You work harder for your money than the guy flying the bright shiny Q400. You put in more hours per month, do more landings and generally do more "flying"...You should make more money!
I've been where you are. No FMS. No autopilot. No back up.
THINKABOUTIT
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