Super Dave gets wings clipped...

[I_Drive_Planes]

Are there other pilots doing surface level aerobatics at Chilliwack Airport?

Clearly the others are smarter than that.

Where do these smarter pilots practice their surface level aerobatics? CYCW would seem to be the ideal location for Mr. Mathieson to practice his routine. It's uncontrolled, with no scheduled traffic, no terminal airspace within a meaningful distance and not much other than farm land on 3 sides.

Found out last night that there is a new, private, 6000' paved strip, 3-4 miles southwest of the YCW airport. Apparently it's owned by the YCW "airport operator." I don't know if that's the same person who owns/manages SD's operation, but if it is, why can't SD practise at this private strip instead?

If that's the one I think it is (49°08'N 121°57'W) there are suburban housing developments on the approaches to both ends of the runway. From both a safety and noise perspective this would be a poorer choice than CYCW. Of course this strip is private, so Dave may not have access to it anyway.

[ahramin]

So if someone is practicing their routine over the airport and you want to land there, you just go somewhere else for 15 minutes? Are the times NOTAMed the morning of?

And where is this 6000' paved runway? I was just out there last week and am surprised I missed a new mile long runway in sight of the circuit.

[Old Dog Flying]

No NOTAMs , no warning at all, just "look at me, here I come". And it is not JUST the noise! Hassling students in the circuit as well as transients. And theats of lawsuits if anyone puts up a stink.

Before blaming the noise complainants, ask some of the operators at YCW.

[I_Drive_Planes]

And where is this 6000' paved runway? I was just out there last week and am surprised I missed a new mile long runway in sight of the circuit.

I thought I saw something on Google Earth here: https://www.google.ca/maps/place/49%C2% ... !1s0x0:0x0, but on closer examination I was probably wrong.

No NOTAMs , no warning at all, just "look at me, here I come".

In my ignorance of everything aerobatic it seems really odd that this sort of activity wouldn't be NOTAMed (or at least some sort of note in the CFS), considering that a NORDO aircraft could come waltzing into the middle of Super Dave's routine looking for a slice of pie.

And it is not JUST the noise! Hassling students in the circuit as well as transients. And theats of lawsuits if anyone puts up a stink.

Before blaming the noise complainants, ask some of the operators at YCW.

Unfortunately the only people who we've (the general public, not Avcanada members) heard from are the usual NIMBYists that plague almost every airport from time to time. If there are greater issues with airport management and Super Dave's operation then those affected should gather their evidence and add their voice to the debate. Any threats of legal action are pretty much nullified when actual evidence is presented backing up the complaints being made.

[piperpilot28]

removed

[cgzro]

And it is not JUST the noise! Hassling students in the circuit as well as transients. And theats of lawsuits if anyone puts up a stink.

As one of very few holders of such an SFOC in Canada I can assure everybody it does not give any special privilidges except waiving the 2000' AGL rule for acro. You cannot interfere with other traffic, you cant overfly assemblies of people etc. If true that behaviour is not legal and downright rude.

When we negotited Privilidges to do acro over Gatineau the airport was clear, we are the lowest priority. You stop immediately when somebody wants to take off, land, sky dive, trim the grass, plow the snow or whatever. anything else requires a different SFOC for an airshow and that requires airspce closures and NOTAMs. I have on more than one occasion had to tell an aerobatic pilot that no he cant tell a student to wait while he finishes his routine.

Sheesh ...

[ahramin]

A long time ago I was returning after a long glider tow and there was an Extra-300 practicing a routine over the airport. I didn't really know what to do and had never seen this aircraft before so I called downwind and waited to see what would happen. The pilot immediately broke off the routine with a funny little wing waggle and waited well clear of the circuit while I landed before coming back and continuing.

I always wondered if I hadn't done something wrong ... or at least rude, but I can see that's the way it would have to be if it was a regular occurrence.

[co-joe]

is it that piercing noise like a 2 blade 185 or Islander makes? The kind that rattles glass ware right off the shelf and loosens nylocks?

[cgzro]

I always wondered if I hadn't done something wrong ... or at least rude, but I can see that's the way it would have to be if it was a regular occurrence.

Nope, just do a normal circuit entry and land. The acro pilot should give way or in some rare cases can tighten up and fly inside the circuit , go 500ft above the circuit, or just wait til you land. Those planes can climb or descend 1000ft in a very few seconds and its easy to pop up to a perch over the airport, throttle back orbit and wait. Occasionally its possible to even pop down to do a low inverted or whatever pass while the circuit traffic is on downwind. Most pilots are delighted to see this as long as you dont require them to change their behavior. I actually take it as a matter of pride not to interfere.

Of course the acro pilot is full on adrenaline rush when low and a normally type A personality becomes A++ which may come through on the radio as pretty arrigant.

[mmartin1872]

The new air strip is on lickman rd. If you are on the south side of the airport. Follow the train tracks to Lickman Rd. The air strip is just north of the tracks. On the east side of lickman rd. Running in the same direction of 07 and 25

[AirFrame]

Where do these smarter pilots practice their surface level aerobatics? CYCW would seem to be the ideal location for Mr. Mathieson to practice his routine. It's uncontrolled, with no scheduled traffic, no terminal airspace within a meaningful distance and not much other than farm land on 3 sides.

It's ideal for SD. No tower, tape, or radar to record/control his movements. Just non-flying neighbours who don't know anything about aviation, the businesses on the field that put up with it, and the visiting aircraft who (a) wouldn't check NOTAM's anyway even if one was filed (which it never is) and (b) don't know what to do when they arrive in the middle of SD's act anyway.

If that's the one I think it is (49°08'N 121°57'W) there are suburban housing developments on the approaches to both ends of the runway. From both a safety and noise perspective this would be a poorer choice than CYCW. Of course this strip is private, so Dave may not have access to it anyway.

That could be it. I've never seen it personally, someone just told me about it on Thursday and I was equally surprised to hear that there was a strip that long in the lower mainland that nobody knows about.

[7ECA]

I wonder, if the complaints may have originated from one of the other on field "personalities", who likes to play Chilliwack tower on a hand-held radio, or while in the circuit...

Anyone who visits regularly, probably knows whom I speak of.

[mmartin1872]

I know there has been a lot of complaints of super Dave. . I am a hangar owner at chilliwack airport and am trying to stay out of the soap opera that is our airport. If Dave hadn't intentionally smoked out businesses that he didn't like and in the process of doing this he set off the smoke alarms at the casino clearing the casino out., if Dave didn't intentionally buzz a farmers barn intentionally because he "knows" who complained (I believe this farmer is over by this other airstrip). If Dave didn't get special treatment at the airport over and above the quality of treatment all the rest of the tenants get., just because he is friends with the "new management". If Dave didn't almost hit people in the circuit. If he didn't break the regulations for "airshow" performances with out an airshow permit (having spectators show up fora scheduled flight). If he didn't flaunt the fact that he felt he was untouchable, because of his connections with the airport management. If there wasn't video of him with passengers on board doing aerobatics below 2000 feet.

This is what is said at the airport.

I myself feel that he is just trying to make a living at our airport. There has to bea way for us all to work together. It might be time for Chilliwack to geta control tower.. That way the controller could shut down the airspace while Dave practices. . Just like they do in Pitt Meadows. I truthfully love seeing Dave practice. He is an excellent pilot. I think it would bea Shame for him to get chased out of chilliwack.

And if Dave started acting like a grown adult instead of like a teenager, and calling people "30 year senile commercial pilot".. smoking out hangars, putting up signs telling people to f off," he wouldn't be being "witch hunted".

We all don't have to be friends. We all have to be cordial with each other. It's too small of an industry to 1 make enemies in it and 2 wreck people's careers.. It's just too bad that the only thing that made Dave realize that something was wrong cost him the floor practice. I really don't think transport would have grounded him for noise if it wasn't for all of the other precursors that happened, it's just that the "noise" was the 1 complaint they could act on.

[cgzro]

. That way the controller could shut down the airspace while Dave practices. . Just like they do in Pitt Mea

Huh? How can ATC shut down an airport for aerobatics without an airshow sfoc and a notam or a class F. Cant be legal. I mean they can ask nicely for you to wait and most people will oblige but somebody doing aerobatics is not a legitimate reason to shut down a runway that everybody pays taxes for.

Also I have a problem with keeping some poor kid waiting when he's scrimping and going in to debt for every hour.

[mmartin1872]

I've flown to Pitt and Been asked to stay out of the zone for 10 minutes because there is aerobatics going on.. I think it makes sense. It's a safe way to control a hazardous situation. I don't know if it's legal but it sure makes sense to me. Way safer than having someone doing aerobatics at an uncontrolled airport that is this busy.

[I_Drive_Planes]

I know there has been a lot of complaints of super Dave. . I am a hangar owner at chilliwack airport and am trying to stay out of the soap opera that is our airport. If Dave hadn't intentionally smoked out businesses that he didn't like and in the process of doing this he set off the smoke alarms at the casino clearing the casino out., if Dave didn't intentionally buzz a farmers barn intentionally because he "knows" who complained (I believe this farmer is over by this other airstrip). If Dave didn't get special treatment at the airport over and above the quality of treatment all the rest of the tenants get., just because he is friends with the "new management". If Dave didn't almost hit people in the circuit. If he didn't break the regulations for "airshow" performances with out an airshow permit (having spectators show up fora scheduled flight). If he didn't flaunt the fact that he felt he was untouchable, because of his connections with the airport management. If there wasn't video of him with passengers on board doing aerobatics below 2000 feet.

This is what is said at the airport.

I myself feel that he is just trying to make a living at our airport. There has to bea way for us all to work together. It might be time for Chilliwack to geta control tower.. That way the controller could shut down the airspace while Dave practices. . Just like they do in Pitt Meadows. I truthfully love seeing Dave practice. He is an excellent pilot. I think it would bea Shame for him to get chased out of chilliwack.

And if Dave started acting like a grown adult instead of like a teenager, and calling people "30 year senile commercial pilot".. smoking out hangars, putting up signs telling people to f off," he wouldn't be being "witch hunted".

We all don't have to be friends. We all have to be cordial with each other. It's too small of an industry to 1 make enemies in it and 2 wreck people's careers.. It's just too bad that the only thing that made Dave realize that something was wrong cost him the floor practice. I really don't think transport would have grounded him for noise if it wasn't for all of the other precursors that happened, it's just that the "noise" was the 1 complaint they could act on.

Now this is the stuff that reality TV is made of! I might be more inclined to watch Airshow if they told the whole story.

The creator of the "Transport Canada: Allow Super Dave to continue his routines out of the Chilliwack Airport" petition on Change.org is planning on releasing a list of complaints against Super Dave tomorrow. I wonder if some of the more interesting accusations against him will be on it. This is really looking like more than simple NIMBYism, but if no one is willing to put pen to paper and sign their name to a complaint then it's all just vicious rumour.

If Dave has been acting like a child then he deserves to be sent to his room for a while. These antics are not befitting a professional pilot and are bad for aerobatic performers and for aviation in general. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to obtain the appropriate SFOC and airport support for surface level aerobatics practice. When pilots abuse this privilege (as cgzro said, it is a rare one) it can only serve to make it more difficult for other pilots to receive permission to take their acro practice down low. I think it also makes the aviation community in general look bad.

I love airshows. Super Dave is a great performer, I saw him in Quesnel in 2013 and I look forward to seeing him again this summer. However, if half the things coming out about him from Chilliwack are true then he needs to can the attitude and approach his chosen profession with a little more professionalism. The things being said reinforce some negative stereotypes about aerobatic performers and airshows in general and that can't be good for that industry. I want Super Dave to be able to continue doing what he does so well, and I think he should be able to continue doing it in Chilliwack. The onus is on him, however, to be a good neighbour and to try to piss off as few people as possible because if he doesn't then the stream of complaints to Transport will continue and he may have to consider a career change.

A simple noise complaint from some old biddies with pens, paper, and too much time on their hands is one thing, but malicious, juvenile behaviour is something different entirely.

[piperpilot28]

if no one is willing to put pen to paper and sign their name to a complaint then it's all just vicious rumour.

People have been going to TC about it. When Dave smoked out the community TC had almost 40 complaints from the public, including at least 2 videos of the event. Issue is 2 things, not all of the events have been fully documented therefor TC doesn't like to act on it. The other is people haven't been going to the public in hopes that TC and the owner of the airport (City of Chilliwack) would resolve the issues quietly. Reality is the soap opera of CYCW only hurts other pilots and the commercial operators at the airport, and in an industry as hard as aviation that isn't good.

[cgzro]

I've flown to Pitt and Been asked to stay out of the zone for 10 minutes because there is aerobatics going on.. I think it makes sense. It's a safe way to control a hazardous situation. I don't know if it's legal but it sure makes sense to me. Way safer than having someone doing aerobatics at an uncontrolled airport that is this busy.

Definitely its safer and I find practice in an MF with access to radar infinitely safer for me than going to a practice area. However to ask a few people to wait, especially if they are in the air is costing them time and money. A young kid on a cross country or comming back from the practice area now has to spend another 50 bucks he or she does not have.

I recall a few years ago a pilot telling a jump plane full to wait while he finished his routine. They were orbiting at 12,000 ft fully loaded for 10 minutes at significant cost and discomfort. Or a formation practicing overhead that caused grief to a flying schools rental schedule for the day.

[mmartin1872]

I've flown to Pitt and Been asked to stay out of the zone for 10 minutes because there is aerobatics going on.. I think it makes sense. It's a safe way to control a hazardous situation. I don't know if it's legal but it sure makes sense to me. Way safer than having someone doing aerobatics at an uncontrolled airport that is this busy.

Definitely its safer and I find practice in an MF with access to radar infinitely safer for me than going to a practice area. However to ask a few people to wait, especially if they are in the air is costing them time and money. A young kid on a cross country or comming back from the practice area now has to spend another 50 bucks he or she does not have.

I recall a few years ago a pilot telling a jump plane full to wait while he finished his routine. They were orbiting at 12,000 ft fully loaded for 10 minutes at significant cost and discomfort. Or a formation practicing overhead that caused grief to a flying schools rental schedule for the day.

I agree with you on those points also. It's just us as an airport can't have it both ways. We want it safe for everyone, the vast majority of the airport finds that Dave is being unsafe, (be it him being unsafe, unliked, etc.) I don't really want a control zone here. I think my suggestion of a control zone, is also what most people here, do not want. But what other option is there. They don't want Dave doing aerobatics with anyone in the circuit, well how do you control that.. a) make dave fly at night when its not as busy. (let's see the noise complaints from that), b) have a controller to give him a safe practice area, and window. c) chase dave away from the airport.

option c is just wrong. He runs a company that is operating out of a public airport that he fully has the right to be at.

So the best choice out of all the bad choices, is having a controller, and control zone put in place.

[Rookie50]

I've flown to Pitt and Been asked to stay out of the zone for 10 minutes because there is aerobatics going on.. I think it makes sense. It's a safe way to control a hazardous situation. I don't know if it's legal but it sure makes sense to me. Way safer than having someone doing aerobatics at an uncontrolled airport that is this busy.

Definitely its safer and I find practice in an MF with access to radar infinitely safer for me than going to a practice area. However to ask a few people to wait, especially if they are in the air is costing them time and money. A young kid on a cross country or comming back from the practice area now has to spend another 50 bucks he or she does not have.

I recall a few years ago a pilot telling a jump plane full to wait while he finished his routine. They were orbiting at 12,000 ft fully loaded for 10 minutes at significant cost and discomfort. Or a formation practicing overhead that caused grief to a flying schools rental schedule for the day.

Not cool at all. You can't reserve the airspace to yourself. If it's that much of an issue I'd suggest relocatation to a remote airport. My $0.02.

[AirFrame]

This discussion would be so much more entertaining if the Colonel was participating.

[AirFrame]

Not cool at all. You can't reserve the airspace to yourself.

Actually, you can. It's called issuing a NOTAM.

If it's that much of an issue I'd suggest relocatation to a remote airport. My $0.02.

Chilliwack probably is the most "remote" airport in the lower mainland... Except maybe Hope, but it's grass and he's probably got tiny wheels.

[cgzro]

Just a clarification, a NOTAM is just a notice so people can plan accordingly, it does not actually "reserve" anything, rather its the result of reserving something that other pilots count on that causes the NOTAM to be issued, for example its the output of getting an airshow SFOC.

Reserving a runway and the space around it would require that the people funding it agree including those renting space at the airport etc. When an airshow is put on a lot of work is required to get that permission because it costs other people money when you shut them down.

I dont know any way a civilian pilot can have excluse use of public runway/zone on an ad hoc basis. Airports / cities etc. allow airshows, and exclusive use because it generates revenue for them. Control zone or not, makes no difference, although definitely safer controlled.

The only way I know this can work for ad hoc practice is to interwork with the traffic with no more than the usual delay that one aircraft causes another.

A private airport can of course do what it wants.

[rigpiggy]

Of course the acro pilot is full on adrenaline rush when low and a normally type A personality becomes A++ which may come through on the radio as pretty arrigant.

And if Dave started acting like a grown adult instead of like a teenager, and calling people "30 year senile commercial pilot".. smoking out hangars, putting up signs telling people to f off,".

Yes, that sounds like Dave

[godsrcrazy]

I think some are forgetting that not everyone in the world likes to hear the sound of a prop snapping. Most people don't mind it during the day but sitting on your deck at night trying to carry on a conversation with friends listening to that gets annoying. Most airports have practice areas just for that reason. Being directly over the airport doing aerobatics is not considered a practice area. Rather then being a show off show some respect.