Cameron Air Caravan - CYTZ

[photofly]

I am quite sure we will get to my perspective on things sooner or later

Are we there yet?




How about now?

[cloudrunner]

So if the wheels would not come down but they would go up. Why not land on water and fix the problem? Were some wheels jammed up and some down. If a guy landed a perfectly good floatplane on grass because he could not get the wheels down, that would be considered stupid in my book? I guess that's what Cloudrunner is getting at. Are we talking about indication issues or wheels totally jammed in mid cycle?

According to the CADOR, they jammed mid-cycle and they were low on fuel.

How did they differentiate between "jammed" and "some part of the system stopped working"? i.e. pressure switch.. brushes in the pump motor… C/B failure..?

What constitutes "low fuel" in this case? How much fuel did they have on board when they landed?

[cloudrunner]

I am quite sure we will get to my perspective on things sooner or later

Are we there yet?




How about now?

I think I have insinuated more than a few things about what would have happened under my control… What would you have done if your gear didn't go down in an amphib Caravan photofly?

[photofly]

I am quite sure we will get to my perspective on things sooner or later

Are we there yet?




How about now?

I think I have insinuated more than a few things about what would have happened under my control… What would you have done if your gear didn't go down in an amphib Caravan photofly?

I'd ask the pilot what he or she was going to do next!

Go on, don't insinuate, I'm not looking to catch you out. Everyone else might be, but I'm not. I want to know what steps you'd take. I can't bear all this edging around an issue, trying to give a clues without actually committing to anything.

[cloudrunner]

I'd ask the pilot what he or she was going to do next!

Ah, so you don't have a licence, that explains a few things.

Go on, don't insinuate, I'm not looking to catch you out. Everyone else might be, but I'm not. I want to know what steps you'd take. I can't bear all this edging around an issue, trying to give a clues without actually committing to anything.

I am not suggesting that you are trying to catch me, quite the contrary, it is me who is fishing for experts in the hopes that in the end, we all may learn a thing or two and that perhaps "as the crow flies" may not always be the best route, if ya catch my wind correction

[photofly]

I am not suggesting that you are trying to catch me, quite the contrary, it is me who is fishing for experts in the hopes that in the end, we all may learn a thing or two and that perhaps "as the crow flies" may not always be the best route, if ya catch my wind correction

So you are merely trying to sound smart. Which is a really dumb way to teach anything.

[cloudrunner]

//Hai there! I'm Sulako and I only appear when someone forgets that we have rules on these forums, including a requirement to play nice. I removed a bunch of stuff that wasn't very nice. Let's consider this a refresher, and also strike 1.




In the name of not being a complete dick and for your benefit only… what is my thought process?

1. Did I push the "check all indicator lights" button and did all 10 gear lights illuminate? Eliminates bulb issues.
2. Has this happened to any of the other guys? What did they do and what was the outcome of that? If you share ideas and read forums sometimes they provide clues.
3. Of course I was watching the confirm/transit lights... did the other 2/3/4 go down normally and quickly? (20-25 sec) and the last one just didn't? If one just doesn't make it repeatedly, probably not a "system issue". Of course you will confirm this by recycling.
4. You can actually HEAR it all happening, the gear motors working up and down that is, (I can with Bose N/C), did it sound normal?
5. Do I want to try the manual handle now because I think there is a pressure leak causing a fluid leak and a pressure switch issue and should I do this now before cycling the electric gear a bunch more and piss out a lot of fluid making the manual ineffective?
6. If the C/B's popped and I push it in, does that get my gear down a bit more? Should I do that again and risk burning out the brushes/motor in the hopes to get my LANDING GEAR DOWN if that's what I REALLY NEED TO DO? (I've landed both on the water and the runway at YTZ and both are a piece of piss, so in this case, confirmed up/down is not a factor)
7. If I cycle the gear again (and again) (and again) what happens?
8. When I flew past the maintenance guys, did they see a big red streak on the bottom of the back end?
9. When I try the manual lever, is it really quite stuck right off the hop (something is binding or if I'm in salt water.. salt-stuck), should I lay into the handle a bit and try to get past the "stuckage"?

I am quite sure more people than me have had an issue with Wip floats and are lurking in the bushes here. Personally, I truly love the product and consider them industry standard. They have treated me well on what I would think is 10,000 or more sectors over the years all over the world. I believe that they have strived to overcome the issues of developing a relatively new design in the grand scheme of things in some pretty tough environments for aluminum.

It behoves us to discuss this in the name of aviation safety.

[photofly]

Interesting, thank you.

In the name of not being a complete dick and for your benefit only…

I promise to not let anyone else read it.

[cloudrunner]

I promise to not let anyone else read it.

Follow me on this one, what I said was on the forum, it was "for your benefit only" it wasn't a private message. You senior citizens, always getting your I-T shit all fashizzled.

[cloudrunner]

And… in other news, a point just raised to me by a highly decorated and well thought of float pilot with more hours than all of you combined…

One unseen rock in your all singing and dancing, well watered, side of the runway "landing strip" and the float is ripped opened, causing a rip/tear/gash resulting in the airplane grabbing and a ground loop. Potential right-off of the airplane or another day at the office?

[photofly]

Is it possible the infield there is known to be free of rocks? That area is mown short regularly, and presumably the mower blades escape unscathed. How big would a rock need to be to cause such a hazard? Big enough to be spotted quickly by ARFF while watering?

[cloudrunner]

I suppose it's relevant to say that on maybe 10 occasions, I have had gear not do what they were supposed to on C208's and less-so on C206. All of the above efforts in one or more combinations have resulted in me not having to do anything other that what I wanted to do on any given day. Granted, most of the issues were in salt water but it doesn't mean it can't happen in YTZ (obviously).

Given the straightforward design of the floats, relatively speaking in today's world, they sure give their share of headaches and will probability continue to do so, given the nature of the operations.

In the end folks, it's all up to you…if you are flying an amphib and your gear selection doesn't go as planned, you can PICK A SPOT AND STICK IT, or maybe you can troubleshoot it… If you manage to fandangle it, I'll bet the DOM will buy you a pint for bringing it home as planned in spite of a difficult situation….. If he doesn't, look me up and I will.

[cloudrunner]

And one last thought… You don't work for Cameron Air and you are not landing at YTZ, your gear selection is not going as planned and there is not a cozy little watered and comfy landing spot in sight…

Are you starting to think TROUBLESHOOT yet?

[PilotDAR]

You don't work for Cameron Air and you are not landing at YTZ, your gear selection is not going as planned and there is not a cozy little watered and comfy landing spot in sight

But that would be another thread, wouldn't it?

You troubleshoot as you can, when you have to. I spent three hours circling YYZ on a skuzzy, icing December day, 30 years ago, with gear stuck up in a C 310, to eventually be told to belly it in. I had the fuel, the time, and the motivation to try to get it resolved. I have no idea what the Cameron pilot had, other than a suitable grass space to slide it on at home, and perhaps a worrying fuel situation (which maybe was the result of taking time to troubleshoot earlier - I have no knowledge of that). I've glided both wheel and amphib Caravans, and I sure would not want to be doing it to a landing around downtown Toronto! I've also landed one side up, the other side down twice.

I think a separate thread about understanding amphib systems, and broad minded problem solving skills would be a great addition here - particularly for new amphib pilots, but as a refresher for us old pilots too!

[golden hawk]

I think a separate thread about understanding amphib systems, and broad minded problem solving skills would be a great addition here - particularly for new amphib pilots, but as a refresher for us old pilots too!

I second the motion!

[Sulako]

Hello folks. Let's keep in mind that we are all people here, and we should be respectful and kind above all else, even though we might disagree.

Thanks!

[Slats]

I have found myself in the situation of having to land an amphib on the infield once after it became glaringly obvious to me that the gear was in an unsafe position for a water landing and was also not extended for a runway landing, and no amount of troubleshooting could remedy it. This was confirmed after consulting with maintenance. The resulting landing was as uneventful as the multiple previous times I had intentionally landed a float plane on an infield. I didn't even get ground looped by a rock.
Perhaps in this situation, it was as glaringly obvious to the pilot as it was to me, that they needed to take the course of action that they did. Perhaps it wasn't. I would find it very hard to believe, however, that they arrived at their decision lightly and without troubleshooting and/or consulting with maintenance personnel.

[floatman]

In an effort to avoid the condescending ire of cloudrunner,

What's really funny is how condescending you sound.

[photofly]

Even I can see that the pilot should have cycled the gear a few more times, reset some CBs and all would have been well.

Nor do I give a flying f*ck if I sound condescending or not.




Date: 2015-05-29
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.:
Narrative: Update: Follow-up information received from Airworthiness – East [2015-05-26]: A Civil Aviation Safety Inspector (CASI) looked into this occurrence. The CASI contacted the operator for more information and was provided with additional details on this failure of a flare fitting on a hydraulic line where it connected to the landing gear selector assembly. It was determined that the flare fitting had substandard manufacturing qualities. An inspection of the remaining flare fittings found that three of four (3 of 4) exhibited similar qualities with the same potential for failure. The operator conducted a fleet-wide inspection and found similar issues with half of the hydraulic line flare fittings on the other Caravan they owned. A Service Difficulty Report (SDR) has been submitted. The CASI was satisfied with the information the operator provided, the SDR submitted and the inspections carried out. The CASI advised that no further Transport Canada follow-up action was required at this time.

[PilotDAR]

Good to know. As always, a better landing is possible after a better flare...

[floatman]

failure of a flare fitting on a hydraulic line where it connected to the landing gear selector assembly

Was there fluid left in the system?

According to the CADOR, they jammed mid-cycle and they were low on fuel

How did they differentiate between "jammed" and "some part of the system stopped working

Was there another crew/staff on board? Do you know where the reservoir is and how someone might get a look at the sight gauge?

It may well come out yet that the particular pilot in question did everything that me, you and Bob Wiplinger could ever think of and landing on the grass was the best answer..

8. When I flew past the maintenance guys, did they see a big red streak on the bottom of the back end?

It behoves us to discuss this in the name of aviation safety.

Actually you're asking questions that you know aren't going to get answered, because you want to sound smart..........
Nobody here is doing any discussing - it's just you casting aspersions at this point.

Nah, yer right photofly. You guys should have never had that discussion, it seems like there was just a bunch of ridiculous questions being asked.

[photofly]

It's a miracle anyone survived. Hurrah for Cloudrunner the hero! @#$! Sullenburger, Cloudrunner saved the passengers and he wasn't even on board! Cloudrunner for President! Cloudrunner for God!

[floatman]

It's a miracle anyone survived. Hurrah for Cloudrunner the hero! @#$! Sullenburger, Cloudrunner saved the passengers and he wasn't even on board! Cloudrunner for President! Cloudrunner for God!

Ok then. Disregard the discussion and stick to the curious personal attack. Enjoy.

[photofly]

Thank you. I shall.

Whipline supplement says if you cannot confirm the gear is fully up or down, to land on the grass beside the runway.

And it was executed beautifully from what I hear. Good job to those guys.

+1

How nice to be able to credit a pilot for doing something right, without the carping and second-guessing.

[floatman]

Ok then. Disregard the discussion and stick to the curious personal attack. Enjoy.

Thank you. I shall.

Strange perspective dude. For you it seems it's more about the fact that cloudrunner didn't +1 on the "nice job guys" and not about what the reasons for the issue were and the importance of talking through them. I'm starting to understand you a little better now. Let's be friends and go for a glass of milk.