Meatservo wrote:Do you mean "derate" as in drawing a new, lower red line on the gauge, or do you mean they somehow modify them so they can't make it to full MP? If it's the latter, is it done with manufacturer approval or an STC?
I know of some operators that will actually modify it to provide less power. I wouldn't doubt that Keystone does this as well.
I was in the Thompson area yesterday. Could've maybe been carb ice but with eight people, cargo and fuel for Winnipeg, there really isn't much room for error.
I've flown planes that have gone through their shop before. Let's just say that Keystone really sets the benchmark for sketchy.
upintheair_ wrote:My company bought one of Keystone's old Navajos. Plane flies fine, I've probably got 50 hours in in already. It has been torn apart by our guys and inspected, all was well more or less... But the thing that made me laugh when it showed up was they had this bent sheet metal jobber that was bolted on to cover the fuel gauges from passenger view. Fitting for Keystone given their history.
Hope everyone makes a quick recovery.
Those are there to obstruct passengers view from the fuel gauges so they don't start asking questions. One of the practices that I have personally witnessed is running the aux tanks dry and switching to the main tanks. One pilot told me it was a game they played, to see if they could run the engine to starvation and switch the tank to the main just in time to keep it going.
jschnurr wrote:I was in YTH with a navajo for fuel sometime last year. Told the Esso guy to "fill 'er up with Avgas". As I'm making my way to Robin's for a stale donut, I happened to notice the fueler jump into the JetA truck and drive away. I figured he had to service another aircraft before mine, but my spidey sense make me go check on things. Sure enough, he had parked in front of my aircraft, and by time I hurried over to stop him, he had the grounding cable connected and was ready to unwind the hose. I told him that I needed Avgas not JetA, and he went back for the correct truck.
I'm glad it wasn't me in the news today, but in all honesty it very well could have been. Stay vigilant out there.
I'm not even surprised. I've had a lot of poor experiences with the Esso up in Thompson.
Keystone is on my "NO FLY" list.
BUT
This one looks like they got a load of Jet B?
These guys could get taken out by a SAM, and they'd be hanged by the Wizards on Avcan Myself included.
But, this could happen to any of you. Unless you're a one man band, there are things you can, and will eventually miss.
Keep this in mind
Illya
upintheair_ wrote:My company bought one of Keystone's old Navajos. Plane flies fine, I've probably got 50 hours in in already. It has been torn apart by our guys and inspected, all was well more or less... But the thing that made me laugh when it showed up was they had this bent sheet metal jobber that was bolted on to cover the fuel gauges from passenger view. Fitting for Keystone given their history.
Hope everyone makes a quick recovery.
Those are there to obstruct passengers view from the fuel gauges so they don't start asking questions. One of the practices that I have personally witnessed is running the aux tanks dry and switching to the main tanks. One pilot told me it was a game they played, to see if they could run the engine to starvation and switch the tank to the main just in time to keep it going.
I am not making this up
We have customers that refuse to charter Keystone because of this.
Illya Kuryakin wrote:there are things you (or anyone - LnS) can, and will eventually miss.
This right here. Know it and live by it. Things you could be monitoring will break whether you're watching or not. People you count on will screw up. It's inevitable. You, the pilot, have a lot more riding on their success than they do so you better make damn sure things get done right. It matters.
jschnurr wrote:I was in YTH with a navajo for fuel sometime last year. Told the Esso guy to "fill 'er up with Avgas". As I'm making my way to Robin's for a stale donut, I happened to notice the fueler jump into the JetA truck and drive away. I figured he had to service another aircraft before mine, but my spidey sense make me go check on things. Sure enough, he had parked in front of my aircraft, and by time I hurried over to stop him, he had the grounding cable connected and was ready to unwind the hose. I told him that I needed Avgas not JetA, and he went back for the correct truck.
I'm glad it wasn't me in the news today, but in all honesty it very well could have been. Stay vigilant out there.
This is why I'm an advocate for someone supervising fueling. For 100LL/JetA but also for the amounts. If I need say 100L in each outboard, I want to know that I in fact got what I asked for.
switchflicker wrote:""Wouldn't fuel port restrictors have prevented this?""
Precisely. Was that not what they were invented to do?
Has the Esso facility changed hands in the last few years, or is it still managed my the portly happy guy from many years ago?
Changed hands. No local managers. Owned and managed out of ?Red Lake? IIRC.
Fueler swapped the broad JetA nozzle for the smaller brass one. (Used for fueling planes like DHC-2T that still have the smaller tank "holes" or some helicopters) It's owned by Maratech, not Central aviation witch runs YWG and YRL Essos.
After refueling always check quantity, quality and that your fuel caps are secure.
If you have a wooden dip stick the avgas will evaporate very quickly whereas jet fuel will show for a long time. If you use a hollow plastic dip stick you should be able to see the blue color. Failing that use your fingers....jet fuel will be oily and stinky.
I know, using your fingers is not healthy so if that bothers you use gloves.
I have had numerous occasions where the Thompson esso fuelers drove off to try and fill my chieftain with Jetfuel and caught them every time before they started fueling. For my new FOs, the first thing I always tell them when we get to Thompson is watch the darn fueler and make sure he doesn't screw up. He filled my Aux tanks full instead of my mains once also...I have no idea who trained them but it would have been sub-standard. It makes me absolutely mad that this happened. I mentioned it previously to staff, and my last time talking to the fueler in Thompson I had to yell at him because, surprise surprise, he parked the jetfuel truck right in front of my plane. The fuelers should get drug tested because I swear every time I saw them they looked high out of their minds. I hope some legal justice is served. This kind of crash usually ends in casualties, so that fact that everyone walked away tells me the pilots, whom I know very well, did an excellent job in the worst possible situation. I am glad to hear they are recovering.
Jack In The Box wrote:The YTH Esso is where people who get fired from their previous jobs go to work.
That's not a joke either, unfortunately.
Who cares. You're the PIC. Its about risk management. Someone else here said it best. Check quality and quantity. Supervise the damn fueling. Its not that hard.
FOD_Vacuum wrote:I have had numerous occasions where the Thompson esso fuelers drove off to try and fill my chieftain with Jetfuel and caught them every time before they started fueling. For my new FOs, the first thing I always tell them when we get to Thompson is watch the darn fueler and make sure he doesn't screw up. He filled my Aux tanks full instead of my mains once also...I have no idea who trained them but it would have been sub-standard. It makes me absolutely mad that this happened. I mentioned it previously to staff, and my last time talking to the fueler in Thompson I had to yell at him because, surprise surprise, he parked the jetfuel truck right in front of my plane. The fuelers should get drug tested because I swear every time I saw them they looked high out of their minds. I hope some legal justice is served. This kind of crash usually ends in casualties, so that fact that everyone walked away tells me the pilots, whom I know very well, did an excellent job in the worst possible situation. I am glad to hear they are recovering.
I feel like with all the posters piping up in here, this issue should be made aware of to TC in their investigation. Rather than just chalking it up to a one time mistake they need to know this is a regular problem. Otherwise it's just going to happen again.
Jack In The Box wrote:...One of the practices that I have personally witnessed is running the aux tanks dry and switching to the main tanks. One pilot told me it was a game they played, to see if they could run the engine to starvation and switch the tank to the main just in time to keep it going.
I am not making this up
If you do it right, blowing the tanks is no big deal. Try flying a twin cessna with 6 tanks and you need every drop, you have to run them almost dry, but you can hear it immediately, then the fuel flows stutter, boost pumps on , switch tanks and back to flying....Even if you were asleep and ran a tank right dry, switching tanks, they roar back to life immediately.
Seriously can't believe there are fuellers stupid enough to put Jet A in a piston twin. F'n retarded. They don't even look similar. Did the fueller have two left shoes on with velcro instead of laces? Was he wearing a hockey helmet?
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Last edited by co-joe on Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ogc wrote:Is the Esso there that much cheaper than Shell? If the service is that terrible im surprised so many people use them.
Shell is generally better but it's happened to me a few times where I call the Shell for fuel only to have Esso drive over when I arrive because the Shell guy called Esso.
Hasn't Esso been shut down a few times too? I think I recall them being closed last spring for a little bit.
