PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

[digits_]

At one company I worked for not too long ago, we had a policy that if one person turned around OR said no to a flight for weather, we'd ground the fleet and have a scotch, that way we'd all be grounded for the day. This policy was enforced whether it was the most experienced pilot or the least experienced pilot, no matter the cargo, passenger or client, and the system worked very well.

E

Doesn't that increase the pressure on the "new guy" enormously ? If he doesn't want to fly he grounds the whole fleet ? I know PRM's who have issues grounding one plane and it's their job

Also, do all your pilots and your whole fleet fly to the same destination ?

I'm glad it worked for you, but I wouldn't want to have a system like that in that form.

[CPLMike89]

Just got to work, I'm flying the Caravan today. Checked the weather -FZDZ and moderate mixed icing SFC to 2500 for the whole day. I've been at work for 5 minutes in that time I've cancelled all flights and our CSA is busy rescheduling everything because TOMORROW IS ANOTHER DAY. Do I feel pressure? sure, Do I feel I have to fly? nope, I have too much to lose and nothing to gain by flying around under the ceiling picking up ice hoping it'll pass. The perceived pressure we feel is just that, PERCEIVED take a step back and look at the big picture.

Mike

[esp803]

I've made a lot of money on performance based flying, and I always asked for a paycut and to be put on salary (and they never went for it). Performance based flying has no place in aviation and should be illegal for that very reason. We flew all charter flying and all of our clients were happy to wait a day if we felt concerned about safety. I was the low timer with about 4k hours in the area at the time.

E

[Maynard]

Seriously though, Its interesting how difficult it is to say no, even though you know you should, but what a relief it is when someone else makes the decision for you.

The sooner you realize this is BS, IT'S NOT DIFFICULT!!! Maybe once you have a wife/kids on the back of your mind, you'll never have to worry about putting yourself in a situation which your kids may not have a parent anymore.
Show me a report or something that says "The company pressured the pilot to fly in bad conditions and take the blame for his death". I doubt it. I've only read "The pilot's decision to fly in.....etc"
Just say FUCKING NO!!!!

[Illya Kuryakin]

Ah, the pressure. Seriously? Are we still playing that card? Just go have a coffee/scotch, depending on the time of day, and RELAX! Leave the keys in the airplane for the next guy....simple.
As Spock would say..."Live long, and prosper...."
Illya

[rigpiggy]

They should be held accountable for either allowing a culture of intimidation in their company, or just plain incompetence.

This young pilot is gone forever, these people should be tried in court and if convicted put in jail forever.

. ..

Question is, who to prosecute?
One way or another, this just has to stop.
Illya

Last place I was at I complained to the owner, dom, qa, cp, dfo about bad maintenance. At the end of the day in an accident I would be legally responsible. The TC CAIRS is useless as I would just be informing on myself and I can't afford the fine."have a friend in similar state" he informed and TC fined him. At the end of the day, have voice recorder on your phone, tape all conversations, take photos of incriminating paperwork, document everything with an email to yourself, refuse unsafe work and be prepared to fight a "wrongful dismissal suit"

Stay Safe everyone, Merry Chriswanzukkah

Pig

[timel]

Last place I was at I complained to the owner, dom, qa, cp, dfo about bad maintenance. At the end of the day in an accident I would be legally responsible.

Yep, there is no such thing like an "accountable manager", the PIC is responsible, period. You get a license so you can sign your name in the logbook and take responsibility.

The TC CAIRS is useless as I would just be informing on myself and I can't afford the fine."have a friend in similar state" he informed and TC fined him.

Ha ha WHAT!
Better use SECURITAS : http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/securitas/index.asp

[Illya Kuryakin]

That's the sad truth in this industry. You turned the key.
Illya

[lownslow]

I must have gotten lucky; my very first day on the line at my very first 703 job I walked through the door in the morning knowing we had a whole province of FZRA, walked up to my Captain and asked if we were still going to Toronto. "Pfff, no," he said as he walked past me and out the door to spend the day with his kids. Made sense then and it's probably contributed to getting me to now.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run....
Illya

[trey kule]

I posted this on another thread TWO WEEKS AGO.

I must explain, that when I read anything about pilots flying in prolonged icing I go to max torque.

And I dont think I took your " long flights in icing" out of context.

There are youngins on here who have posted that they feel it is perfectly OK to fly in icing conditions , just to experience them. So yes, when someone posts about long flights in icing conditions I get kinda revved up. Nothing personal. Just my own way of hopefully instiling some common sense in the less experienced. If one says it is OK....that is all they hear. Not it is OK under certain circumstances.

If I knew how to post a picture, I would post the picture of the Caravan that crashed just outside yellowknife last winter..Icing kills. And the Caravan in particular is both very susceptable to it, and because it is not pressurized, its exit options can be limited.

The whole FIKI thing on small aircraft is an open invitation to those who really dont understand the danger to just try it. And if they get away with it, it just makes them bolder the next time

What is it going to take to get you young pilots to understand the simple concept that you avoid icing conditions. This is not a make believe game you can reset if things dont go well. This whole "pressure" is pure BS. If you operate Caravans, have your company safety officer enlarge and print up the Tindi,Gogal, and soon this one and post them where dispatch people, and anyone who gives you any problem can see them. Use your brains. You dont need to "experience" icing conditions.

Sigh......another young aviator dead. Seen so many in my career.

[magic wand]

I have a thought/question? Is the Caravan the problem or it is how the caravan is equipped..modern avionics, auto-pilot top of the line GPS system.
And is it how most caravan pilots are trained - IFR certified and usually some sort of flight safety type of course under their belt.

There was mention in an earlier post about how in the old days you didn't see otters and beavers out in this weather in the old days. Maybe it was because they were not IFR equipped and the pilots were not IFR rated.

There is an old saying - "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there isn't any old bold pilots" Maybe that saying came about because of the "learning curve"

Another thought - maybe the caravan should lose the IFR certification - make it a day vfr aircraft and remove the autopilot. I bet you would see less risk taking.

I fix em not fly em..but I do see allot of young cocky pilots in way over their heads on this aircraft.

[trey kule]

The caravan,in my opinion , has two issues.
The first is it is not pressurized, and thus tends to, once entering icing condtions, remain in them, which eventually overwhelms the aircraft's capabilities.

The second is it is flown, in many cases by inexperienced pilots, who have no real understanding of just how dangerous icing is, how quickly it can go from dipping your toe in it, to the plane literalyl just falling out of the sky. So instead of not flying at all, they just go out to "have a look", get into some icing, and then instead of doing a 180, continue on...

When an accident occurs out comes the tired old excuse that they felt pressured. Maybe true in the idd case but for most is purely just an excuse to avoid taking responsability for a bad decision. Non SMS reports...no written complaints...before an incident...

Icing training is totally inadequate. The ground icing course is a joke. And if you read old threads you will see how the special stupids rationalize using non approved fluids, have no idea of temperature or mix ratios, and use everything from a little garden spraying, to wiping the wings sith an alcohol soaked rag...

More than you asked for. It is time TC stopped just checking companies to see that the pilots had taken some little course and got signed off, and actually see if they know anything, and the companynis actually doing things properly.

[oldtimer]

According to Ice Pilots NWT, it appears Buffalo uses a mop soaked in ??? to de-ice airplanes. At least that is what I saw on the TV program.

[Illya Kuryakin]

The Caravan is one of the best airplanes ever built, if used for their intended purpose.
Absolutely reliable. Extremely easy to fly. Far more capable than the pilots who fly them. I'd take a Caravan anywhere, in any weather. Very good IFR platform. Great visability. It has one flaw. One caveat. A chink in its armour, if you will. This is ICE! The Caravan will bite your ass in ICE. The Caravan has only one defence against ICE. This is the ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY DEGREE TURN. RIGHT FAAKEN NOW!
Any questions?
Oh, and The Bahamas. That works to.
Illya

[magic wand]

The caravan,in my opinion , has two issues.
The first is it is not pressurized, and thus tends to, once entering icing condtions, remain in them, which eventually overwhelms the aircraft's capabilities.

Beavers and otters were not pressurized. Pressurizing the caravan, IMHO, will only push the aircraft further into situations that will create more problems.
If it was meant to replace the otter, then treat it as an otter, vfr-no auto-pilot. Park it when the weather is crappy.

Sorry, I meant to say earlier- "I am sorry for the loss of life" - I have no proof but I think it was avoidable.

[jspitfire]

First off, condolences to the family and friends. This is a tragic loss.

A couple points I'd like to bring up. First of all, both here and in the Tindi crash a year ago the planes were operating in FZRA, which is classified as severe icing conditions, and of course far beyond the capabilities of the aircraft.

The caravan,in my opinion , has two issues.
The first is it is not pressurized, and thus tends to, once entering icing condtions, remain in them, which eventually overwhelms the aircraft's capabilities.

Second, I'll agree that the Caravan can't handle much ice. However, for those pilots that are sent to Flight Safety, a large portion of the course is dedicated to icing. TC also requires pilots to go through annual online icing training specific to the Caravan, which is provided by Cessna. The S1 supplement (Flight into known icing) in the AFM is very detailed and contains numerous flight planning tools, exit strategies, and limitations for icing conditions. There's more than enough information at your disposal to make your decisions on whether or not to go / continue.

I've been told Wasaya's Caravans are not certified for known ice, so unfortunately the pilot likely didn't have that training and information available to him.



On another note, I'd be curious if someone could pull up statistics for Fedex. The C208B was designed mainly for them, and I imagine they would see some nasty conditions across Canada and the US in the winter.

[trey kule]

To clarify a couple of my points.

1. The Caravan is not bad in icing, but as it is ploughing through it at slow speed and is limited in height with oxygen, it tends to be flown for long periods in icing.
2. Training programs, on paper, look great. But in small companies what is presented to TC as completed training is seldom checked by training staff to see if it really has gotten through, or monitored by supervisory staff to stop young and stupids from just going to have a look.

Yes, as I understood it, these were freezing rain or drizzle accidents. Cant blame flying into that on the aircraft. It was purely poor pilot decision making.
But one has to ask what failed when pilots would launch into these conditions. They were not enroute condtions, or unreported conditions. They knowingly took off into them.

I am aware of the flight safety training, but unfortunately sometimes training has the unintended effect of making a pilot bolder in attempting a flight, as they believe that the training will get them through safely. I would rather employee a big chicken pilot who let fear and common sense hold him back from launching in these conditions, then one who believes they somehow can defeat mother nature from training. Flight Safety training is good, but it is no substitute for common sense

[Illya Kuryakin]

I don't see any evidence that ice was involved here. The aircraft turned back, and we're assuming it was due to ice. No calls were made. (If I were iced up and having problems, I'd be calling somebody) This makes me think he was simply .. running (it was 300 OVC at his destination...I was 15 miles away at YTL) back home. Hitting Tarp Hill has been done before while .. running. Ice build up bringing the aircraft down on the hill seems unlikely. I think the ground just "rose" up on him. There very likely "could" have been ice; the coincidence of the ice build up, and Tarp Hill happening at the same time, a bit much.
Illya

[jspitfire]

Thanks for clarifying Illya, I will put that discussion on hold until more info becomes available.

Trey Kule, I agree with you on #1 and 2. But for training, I think being a bold or conservative pilot is much more based on personality. The Caravan icing and Flt Safety training gave me a much better respect for the limitations of the plane and way more reasons NOT to go flying. Personally I'll take all the training I can get.

[CLguy]

I was told that 2 Caravans launched both turned around but as we know one didn't make it back. If true this may of had some bearing on the decision to go.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I was told that 2 Caravans launched both turned around but as we know one didn't make it back. If true this may of had some bearing on the decision to go.

Monkey see, monkey do....I guess?
I don't get it. It'll never change. That much is obvious.
Stay safe, AH
Illya

[JohnnyHotRocks]

I am aware of the flight safety training, but unfortunately sometimes training has the unintended effect of making a pilot bolder in attempting a flight, as they believe that the training will get them through safely. I would rather employee a big chicken pilot who let fear and common sense hold him back from launching in these conditions, then one who believes they somehow can defeat mother nature from training. Flight Safety training is good, but it is no substitute for common sense

I have seen this firsthand long ago. Pilot returned from Flightsafety bragging how he was the only student who survived the "severe icing encounter" in the sim. Within a month he had destroyed the airplane and almost killed himself and his bag loader after flying in freezing drizzle.

[esp803]

What I found most unrealistic about the Sim, is how it handles in icing. For those of you going down for initial, when you blow the boots at minimum icing speed, you will not magically gain 25kts of airspeed. I'd say it's almost better not to show people that.

[C-gwxv]

how many of us have pushed leg to leg building small amounts of ice, chipping away with a fist and wiping the snow off the wing with the sleeve of a jacket. How common is this practice?
Is (adequate) deicing equipment available at the airports?
Is remote areas... How critical is access to up to date weather forecasts and GFAs.
At what point is it ok to have 'some ice' on the wings?
I've observed many "take offs" with contaminates on the wing.
Why is this practice still accepted in the north and no where else?
At what point do we pick up the phone to advise transport Canada?

There are many contributing factors and the fact is, there is still a significant underlying safety deficiency.

Regulations are the minimum standard and are typically outdated.

Just a few thoughts...

I know the forecast Friday was icing all day. God bless the family, friends and co-workers.