Rex Murphy on Govt Policy toward Bombardier and Jet Fuel

[Moose47]

G'day Rockie

According to dicraprio himself -

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/le ... nvironment

Suzuki can well afford to go anywhere in the world he wants to by private jet. His house alone is worth more than 8 million bucks.

[photofly]

You forgot - it's not what people consider themselves that determines if someone's an environmentalist, it's what Rockie says they are that's more important.

[CID]

Once in awhile I agree with old Rex Murphy but most if the time his opinion misses the mark and comes across very misinformed. This is one of those times. His head is quite far up his ass on this one.

[North Shore]

G'day Rockie

According to dicraprio himself -

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/le ... nvironment

Suzuki can well afford to go anywhere in the world he wants to by private jet. His house alone is worth more than 8 million bucks.

Suzuki's house is only 'worth' $8M if he decides to sell it - and then hes faced with trying to buy somewhere else to live in Vancouver. As he points out, he's lived in the same house, with his inlaws, for 35 years. And 35 years ago, his house wasn't worth anywhere near what he could sell it for today.

( Sorry, you're striking a nerve here about Vancouver real estate, and what it is 'worth'....my parents are in roughly the same boat as S - scrrimped and saved to keep the banks at bay with 18% interest rates in the early 80's, and now people accuse them of being filthy rich 1%ers...well, no. they are seniors, getting by on a pension...)

[Rockie]

G'day Rockie

According to dicraprio himself -

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/le ... nvironment

Suzuki can well afford to go anywhere in the world he wants to by private jet. His house alone is worth more than 8 million bucks.

Owning a $8 million house in Vancouver means he can afford to live in Vancouver, it is not proof he flies all over the world in a private jet. Similarly hating David Suzuki, Al Gore and Leonardo DiCaprio does not disprove climate science.

If the mission here is to expose hypocrisy why haven't any of you called out Rex Murphy? I can't find any reference to him objecting to oil industry subsidies even when they were drowning in cash.

"DiCaprio also announced that his foundation, The Leonardo DiCaprio Foundation, will be donating $15 million to support environmental-protection projects."

I admit I was wrong. DiCaprio is an environmentalist who puts his money where his mouth is.

[CID]

Rex Murphy has been a paid shill for the Canadian oil industry but as far as I know he's never received money for speaking on behalf of the aerospace industry. So why would I place ANY value on any comparisons he makes between the two?

Furthermore, if you're going to attack irresponsible use of oil, why attack the consumer sector that only accounts for about 2% of all the oil consumed in the world? It would make much more sense to discuss the auto industry, the government's lack of will to force change in energy sources for those autos and all those entitled "average" Joes who drive around in a a pick-up truck for no other reason than it looks cool!

As a person's net worth and earning potential rise, so does the value of their time. Ipso-facto, owning and operating a business jet makes financial sense and even national economical sense when you consider how many jobs these "rich" people create.

Alberta and their one trick economic pony, the dirty, expensive and economically volatile oil sands is in the dumper and this is just a sign of things to come. There are plenty of relatively inexpensive sources of oil in the world and the profitability of Alberta "extra" crude is based on the tenuous whim of places like Venezuela, Nigeria, Russia, the US and of course the middle east. Albert "boomed" and then they gouged (the shit out of Canadians) and splurged, and gambled and wasted their "heritage" and now there's nothing left but a bunch of bankrupt morons that were swimming in 6 figure jobs.

I would much rather have my tax money put towards alternative energy and development of energy efficient cars than back into the shitty "oil patch".

[Mach1]

CD....

Dirty oil? Could you please find me some clean oil? Your post shows you clearly know nothing about the oil industry except the propaganda handed to you by the environmental movement. Canada has the toughest environmental and labour standards in the world when it comes to extracting oil. Here you are, advocating we buy oil from foreign sources that have no environmental laws, just duping fuel onto the ground with no clean-up, and countries that have no labour protection, some going so far as to still be using slave labour! I know you've never worked in or even been to the oil sands to see what's going on there. If you put a shovel in the ground, you hit oil. Where do you think that oil is going if we don't extract it? I can tell you, it is leaching into the rives and heading into the Arctic ocean. It is leaching into the ground water. It is everywhere... and you propose, as an environmental steward, that this is better than cleaning that oil out of the sand and making use of it, then replanting the trees and rehabilitating the area after all that is done? Okay.... Now lets talk about everything that is made from oil; from the clothes on your back to the cell phone I know you have. Our civilization is built upon the petrochemical industry. Every piece of plastic, rubber and synthetic fibre you use is based in oil.

I'm all for alternative energy too, but there is not such thing as a free lunch. Those electric cars all run on batteries that contain rare earth minerals. They are called rare earth because they are rare on earth. They have to be mined. I supposed you are not against the strip mines to extract those material? I wonder how they will power the mining equipment? All those lovely wind mills... what are they made of? I think material needs to be mined, refined and manufactured to make them. Does all that energy get returned with interest back to the environment? Solar? Needs mined material as well. What is your answer to the problem? Do green energies just appear because we want them?

For a guy who is complaining about the money made in the oil industry it seems to escape your grasp that hight oil prices are an environmentalists best friend. The higher the price, the more incentive to create new and alternative sources of energy... the more economic sense all that R & D money makes, the more economical the alternative energy source becomes. The less oil the consumer uses because it's too expensive.

Rather than throw a jealous tantrum about someone having something you don't, why don't you try to understand the real point Rex is making. Alberta, an entire province full of people, has taken a huge economic hit. It's not our first and it won't be our last, but we survive them all because that's what we do. Most of us aren't asking for a hand out BUT, it is one hell of a slap in our face when a company, not a province, a company, is asking for and receiving a BILLION dollar hand out simply because of the location of it's head office. And don't tell me it's not because of the location of this company. There are almost 100,000 unemployed people since the start of this year in Alberta, how many people does BBD employ in Canada? We have special rules in Alberta wherein you have the lowest eligibility for EI and the shortest time to be on it! How is this fair? There is an inherent unfairness in the way provinces and citizens of this nation are treated by our Federal government based on your address. This is a historical problem. And by the sounds of your ranting, you are very upset that Alberta had an equal seat at the table for the last 10 years and we made a point of having that seat at the table. IF treating all the citizens of Canada with equality, that means everyone outside the boarders of Ontario and Quebec, is an issue for you... then you are beyond reason. I'm a free market person... and no company should EVER be bailed out on the backs of the tax payer. If welfare isn't any good for the poor, it sure as hell isn't something I want to support a corporation and I don't give a rats ass what postal code that company is in! If a company goes under, a hole is created and the next company will fill that void. That's free market.

The only thing I hear when someone like you spouts off about how easy it is to just switch over is that you either fail to understand the larger picture or you want us all to revert back to being pre-industrial... a period when we burned trees to stay warm and cook food... which causes pollution and carbon emissions.

[photofly]

They are called rare earth because they are rare on earth.

Point of order: they're not very rare at all. Can't put it better than the author of the Wikipedia article on the subject:

Despite their name, rare earth elements are – with the exception of the radioactive promethium – relatively plentiful in Earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million, or as abundant as copper. They are not especially rare, but they tend to occur together in nature and are difficult to separate from one another. (The word "rare" is an archaic word for "difficult").

Carry on.

[av8ts]

They are called rare earth because they are rare on earth.

Point of order: they're not very rare at all. Can't put it better than the author of the Wikipedia article on the subject:

Despite their name, rare earth elements are – with the exception of the radioactive promethium – relatively plentiful in Earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million, or as abundant as copper. They are not especially rare, but they tend to occur together in nature and are difficult to separate from one another. (The word "rare" is an archaic word for "difficult").

Carry on.

I think you missed his point. It wasn't that they are rare it's that they have to be mined and refined, which is not exactly environmently friendly

[photofly]

I got his point. But we should be clear and accurate and acknowledge that they're not rare.

[CID]

No jealous tantrum here but you don't seem to have a good understanding of the issue of "dirty oil" or "alternative" energy including other sources of fuel. The context in which Alberta oil is "dirty" is not defined by a single factor. The impact on the environment is higher, the cost of processing and refining it are higher and the final product produces much more environmental waste than the less expensive sweet crude from other sources.

Batteries and motors that use metals whether they are exotic or not, can have their materials recycled. You can't recycle oil. Keep in mind however that batteries aren't the only alternative. Hydrogen is a major contender. Internal combustion engines can be designed and/or modified to burn hydrogen. Fuel cell powered electric cars are also very real but not in mass production. People can have a hydrogen generator right in their driveway. Current technology also supports the "on demand" delivery of hydrogen using a tank of water and an electrical supply at the point of sale. Hydrogen powered engines produce....water. Very sustainable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hy ... -16528552/
https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_station

With respect to your angst against a "company" asking for a bail-out versus a "province", what a heaping pile of bovine waste. Do you think a billion dollars will solve the problems in Alberta? Give your head a shake. And don't fool yourself, any Alberta bail-out will be going to OIL COMPANIES....not the province of Alberta. Oil companies who have already enjoyed decades of subsidizes to develop drilling and processing techniques, and exploration. Please don't try to tell me that Alberta hasn't relied on oil companies getting subsidies and handouts.

Some of the most outrageous handouts are by way of deals with the former Conservatives. Do a little investigation on how much money oil companies are supposed to put aside for environmental clean-up to restore the wilderness once production ceases. Then look at how that amount was whittled down to a small percentage of the original amount using all manner of creative accounting. Then look at how that fund (like the heritage fund) is absolutely decimated if the oil companies went bankrupt today there would be no money to clean up the oil patch.

The reality is that Alberta oil can't compete unless the international market price of oil is artificially held high. Alberta oil is unsustainable. The management of the revenues from Alberta oil have been squandered and the oil companies in Alberta have enjoyed all manner of government money (in the billions) while making no sustainable plans for the future from an investment or clean up perspective.

Oil is dying. Electricity and a hydrogen economy are around the corner.

[photofly]

Speaking as someone who's flown sightseeing over the oil patch, I can say there's an awful lot of Alberta and and an awfully small proportion of it is oil patch. If nothing there ever got cleaned up, I don't think anyone would notice.

Current technology also supports the "on demand" delivery of hydrogen using a tank of water and an electrical supply at the point of sale.

If enough people had hydrogen powered cars to reduce oil usage by any significant amount, have you given any thought to where that colossal amount of electricity to generate enough hydrogen would come from? And whether our current electricity distribution grid could cope?

[Moose47]

G'day CID

Yes you can recycle oil - http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... e-recycled

Cheers...Chris

[CID]

G'day CID

Yes you can recycle oil - http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... e-recycled

Cheers...Chris

Um...I actually meant the stuff you burn, not the stuff you lubricate with. Can you recycle firewood too?

[CID]

Speaking as someone who's flown sightseeing over the oil patch, I can say there's an awful lot of Alberta and and an awfully small proportion of it is oil patch. If nothing there ever got cleaned up, I don't think anyone would notice.

Current technology also supports the "on demand" delivery of hydrogen using a tank of water and an electrical supply at the point of sale.

If enough people had hydrogen powered cars to reduce oil usage by any significant amount, have you given any thought to where that colossal amount of electricity to generate enough hydrogen would come from? And whether our current electricity distribution grid could cope?

Yes. Many people have come up with plans to shift our economy to hydrogen but the oil lobby is quite strong. Imagine for a minute what a monumental task it was to create the current infrastructure for mining, refining and distributing fossil fuels. Imagine the resources that go into that infrastructure. Imagine how much you can recoup from that entire wasteful process if you use hydrogen. I can also tell you that it's not a great idea to pump fresh water underground to extract oil but the oil patch in Alberta pumps the equivalent of what the city of Edmonton uses in a year, into the ground annually and that water is permanently taken out of the environment.

Every plan has challenges.

[Shady McSly]

Plus hydrogen likes to auto-ignite sometimes....

[Cessna 180]

Edited: don't feel like getting into political discussion.

[CID]

Cessna 180, your attempt at summarizing the environmental impact of Alberta oil is staggeringly feeble.

Did you know that the “volume” (not the area) of the tailings ponds in the Alberta oil patch is approximately 5.5 trillion litres and that every single barrel of oil produced in that area creates an additional 2000-2500 litres of highly toxic tailings?

The area of the boreal forest in Canada is huge. It’s about 552 million hectares. If you apply a little grade 3 math, you would quickly realize that the tailings in the “Toronto” sized tailings ponds could cover the entire boreal forest area with a 1 mm coating of toxic tailings. That would effectively wipe out the boreal forest.
If you were to pour the whole mess into Toronto, the city would be under about 75 centimeters of toxic cancer causing, life killing tailings.

The environmental impact of this dirty oil is huge. Nature could not reclaim this area by itself in thousands of years.

And yes the majority of hydrogen today is cracked from hydrocarbons. That’s because it’s cheap because it’s essentially spin-off of an existing industry and additionally, in some cases a waste product of processing these fuels. Electrolysis is comparatively expensive but the environmental impact can be tiny in comparison if proper electricity sources are used and with more demand, the price would come down.

Some companies already have home hydrogen generators available that use solar cells and water to produce the hydrogen. It produces it as long as there is sufficient sunlight.

Of course, making hydrogen this way doesn’t have some of the *cough* “benefits” of cracking it from hydrocarbons like the huge amount of carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide that hydrogen production from coal and petroleum coke produces.

[photofly]

I suspect you could water your garden with tailings pond water for 1000 years and never see the difference. A 1mm layer is laughable.

[cgzro]

Some companies already have home hydrogen generators available that use solar cells and water to produce the hydrogen. It produces it as long as there is sufficient sunlight.

Its instructive to do the math to see how much energy we are actually talking about. For example if you take all the oil we consume in Canada in a year and convert to Terra Watt hours and compare to our current generating capacity in Terra Watt hours the ratio tells you how much growth in our electricity generation is required. The raw figures are available from Google and you only need to multiply and divide. Works no matter what the energy is used for, charge batteries, electrolyse water etc.

Always good to use real numbers to get a handle on a problems scope. Somebody should try it.

[CID]

I suspect you could water your garden with tailings pond water for 1000 years and never see the difference. A 1mm layer is laughable.

So..you'd happily drink a glass of the water from an Alberta oil patch tailings pond?

If 1 mm is laughable to you (because it's not to most) then how about 1 cm? You can drench an area about a tenth the size of the boreal forest with a centimeter of tailings pond scum from the Alberta oil patch. How about 30 cm? (About a foot) You can drown an area about 1.6 million hectares in a foot of toxic slimy tailings material.

Laugh all you want. I used the entire area of the boreal forest in my calculations to put it into perspective. Decrease the area, concentrate the toxins. Drink up. I'll take my chances with the local tap water.

cgzro, educate yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy

[B208]

Hey CID, what qualifies you to make said 'calculations'?

Also, what does this have to do with aviation?

[CID]

B208, what "qualifies" me? I have internet access and a calculator. What qualifies you to dispute me? And before you answer me, please understand that I really don't care. You are under no obligation to read or believe anything I've stated and you are free to do your own research to verify. You obviously have internet access and I'll just assume that you can operate "google".

What does this have to do with aviation? Did you read the topic? It's all about how Rex Murphy is bleeding all over the government for seemingly favouring the aerospace industry in Canada over the oil production industry. So...what's your point exactly?

[cgzro]

cgzro, educate yourself:

You only need to multiply the energy equivalent of a barrel of oil times the number of barrels of oil we consume per year and divide by the current generating capacity per year to get a feel for it. Dont need any education beyond multiplication and division which im sure we all can do.

Also the above is not specific to hydrogen its to any storage system including pumped hydro, batteries, hydrogen, whatever you want to convert thats the minimum energy required if it is to replace oil. You can do the same for diesel, gas, kerosene if you want to see per industry.

Not sure what Im saying which or wrong, just math really. I suppose you can argue about how much energy is in a barrel of oil or our total capacity but just plug in what you think is accurate and try.

[Rockie]

Well this isn't helping their case. According to Rob Dewar (Vice President in charge of the CSeries) the $1 billion from the federal government is "very clearly not required". That should make the Fed's decision an easy one.

http://business.financialpost.com/news/ ... utive-says