Ok, ok, I give in. I tried to keep it in, but I can't. It's worse than toothache. Can someone please please correct the thread title to "...ten hours or fewer"?

Can someone please please correct the thread title to "...ten hours or fewer"?

Yeah, but after we also correct "bring" as a substitute for "take, and "avoid" as a substitute for "prevent"!

Sorry for the thread drift, but I also appreciate grammar with care...

But to close the loop a little, from my personal perspective, poor grammar is an indication to me of how someone might fly my plane. If a person won't put in the effort to use our language properly, are they diligent enough to put in the effort to fly my plane with care? But then, were they taught properly in the first place? [Grammar or piloting]

If 10hrs is not enough, what do you think that the average of total hours for someone to go solo is? At how many hours guys do you soloed?

Our school trains 400+ Chinese students a year, they go from 0 to CPL/Multi IFR in 12 months and not a day more, quite often they have their first solo at 10-15 hours if the weather permits it.

PilotDAR wrote:

Can someone please please correct the thread title to "...ten hours or fewer"?

Yeah, but after we also correct "bring" as a substitute for "take, and "avoid" as a substitute for "prevent"!

Sorry for the thread drift, but I also appreciate grammar with care...

But to close the loop a little, from my personal perspective, poor grammar is an indication to me of how someone might fly my plane. If a person won't put in the effort to use our language properly, are they diligent enough to put in the effort to fly my plane with care? But then, were they taught properly in the first place? [Grammar or piloting]

Don't forget we are a bilingual country. For some people, the subtleties of the English language (and these things are really subtle for someone's who's mothertongue is not English) are not evident. Write a grammatically correct post in French then we can talk.

For some people, the subtleties of the English language (and these things are really subtle for someone's who's mothertongue is not English) are not evident.

Very true, and I adjust my comment in that regard. If a person is posting in English as their second language, power to them, and perfect grammar excused. Indeed, in my work in Europe, I find happily often that people there, with whom I speak, have a better command of English than many of us, and I have to watch my Grammar around them! Please excuse the further thread drift!

photofly wrote:Ok, ok, I give in. I tried to keep it in, but I can't. It's worse than toothache. Can someone please please correct the thread title to "...ten hours or fewer"?

The title is correct. Although fewer is supposed to be used for discrete countable objects, things like time and distance are exceptions.

However, the expression less than is used in front of a plural noun that denotes a measure of distance, amount, or time.
We will go on vacation in less than four weeks.
She owes him less than $30.
We had less than 25 miles to go but ran out of gas.


Back on topic, I think I had 19 hours in my logbook before I went solo. However, 10+ hours were ultralight time which "didn't count" when I started my PPL training as the instructor used the same syllabus in the same order as he would for any student with no flight time at all. The first few hours were spent outside the circuit doing straight/level flight, turns, climbs, descents, slow flight, stalls, illusions created by drift, etc. before we even started circuit work. I think this was a good way to go.

Posthumane wrote:

photofly wrote:Ok, ok, I give in. I tried to keep it in, but I can't. It's worse than toothache. Can someone please please correct the thread title to "...ten hours or fewer"?

The title is correct. Although fewer is supposed to be used for discrete countable objects, things like time and distance are exceptions.

However, the expression less than is used in front of a plural noun that denotes a measure of distance, amount, or time.
We will go on vacation in less than four weeks.
She owes him less than $30.
We had less than 25 miles to go but ran out of gas.

No. There is no such exception. All those examples are grammatical errors.

photofly wrote: No. There is no such exception. All those examples are grammatical errors.

Do you have a source/reference for that ?

I don't need a reference to know that each one of those is more painful to the ear than fingernails scraping across a chalkboard.

Well, you may not like it, but that doesn't make it wrong. I personally find a phrase like "ten hours or fewer" to be much more grating than "ten hours or less."
The oxford dictionary disagrees with you:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/less-or-fewer
As does the blue book of grammar and punctuation:
http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/defini ... er-v-less/
Most importantly though, common useage disagrees with you. The purpose of the fewer/less construct is to remove ambiguity from certain statements such as where a comparison can be applied to a verb or an adverb ("less successful pilots" vs. "fewer successful pilots"). The test of whether a statement is correctly written/spoken or not is whether or not it clearly communicates the intended message. There is no ambiguity in "ten hours or less" and there is no way it could be misunderstood.

Yeah, yeah.

It's still wrong.

photofly wrote:Current RCAF training (provided under contract by civilian instructors to the TC syllabus) has first solo at 14 hours. At least, if you haven't reached the required standard by then you don't get any extra chances.

Aren't the students also doing Aerobatics pre-solo?

So not exactly the same syllabus.

DSoup wrote: Aren't the students also doing Aerobatics pre-solo?

So not exactly the same syllabus.

Depending on how they fly, some civilian students do aerobatics pre solo as well

Hi,

Students in Southport will solo at 12 hours. Nobody goes solo before or after that (except weather delays but solo happens at the 13 hours mark then). The syllabus is pretty rigid. Either you make it and you solo at that time, or you don't.
0.2 solo time (2 circuits) in the entire course. Final test after 14 hours of flying time.

Students do basic aerobatic starting at 8 hours of flying time (very basic, loop + aileron roll)

The Training Plan has been designed by the RCAF. The focus is basic training/selection of the candidates. Of course basic flying remains the same no matter what: straight & level, climb, descent, turns, steepturns, stalls, slow flight, take-offs, circuits, landings, PFL, EFATO, etc...

We are civilian instructors holding TC regular + aerobatic instructor ratings. We are also maintaining a qualification to teach under military rules. We don't use any TC syllabus in our job.
The hiring requirements are TC class 3 + 500hours of instruction. In reality everyone got hired with slightly more experience than that. I can count the class3 instructors on one hand. Most of them are ex-military qualified instructors. The others are stucked as a class3 because we don't recommend people for a TC test...

Anyway, emphasis on our side is not so much on the solo. Students are more focused on making it onto the next mission/lesson
Solo is always a big step though and a great enjoyable time for them (except maybe in winter with the tub being full of ice )

In summary, it's not the same way of teaching, not the same syllabus, not the same requirements. We cannot compare...

Greg

What is the training aircraft you use Greg?

Back in my days, we flew the Slingsby Firefly (and we flew more solo flights). I think they use the Grob 120 now.

Like AuxBatOn said, the Grob120A is used for Phase1 (basic flying training) nowdays.
A nice little airplane despite being a bit heavy for aerobatics...

Greg

Beefitarian wrote:Does anyone know a pilot under 60 years old that soloed with 10 hours or less?

I can think of two in addition to myself. For the two i'm thinking of, their first flight in a small aircraft was either their first lesson or a fam-flight before their first lesson. I grew up spending my weekends at the airport with my parents, so I had flown in a few dozen types of planes before I started my license. Most of the first 10 hours was spent teaching me things I never had to think about before, like talking to the tower.

Depending on how they fly, some civilian students do aerobatics pre solo as well

Um... I know I did. I did them post-solo as well, but not without my instructor. I had to promise I wouldn't do any solo aerobatics before they would let me rent the Aerobat... And I liked the Aerobat more than the regular 152 that the school had... It was lighter and I found it more comfortable.

It was 1969 when I learned to fly on the RCAC scholarship at the Victoria Flying Club and according to the scholarship rules you washed out if not soloed by 12 hours. We did leave the circuit during the pre first solo hours, but not nearly as much as now.
Bob

It also depends on what you've done for those 10 hours. I personally did a lot of practice area and didn't touch circuits until about 5-6 hours. It was just they way the school did it. Had I just gone up and done circuits for 10 hours, sure I'd probably would have solo'd sooner. I solo'd around 14-15 hours.