Fast Air Medevac Crash Bloodvein last night - 2nd in 2016

[pelmet]

Love to see the performance charts pertaining to operations in 2" of slush! Until then, thank you very much, I shall rely on my bag of "bush rat" tricks to keep me safe.
Illya

Is one of the tricks not taking off in 2" of slush?

Don't get me wrong. I DO hear you. And, in theory, I agree with you. However, it's just not practicle. Most of these ops would have to shut down for several days at a time. The only answer is to train these Pilots when and how to do this safely.....l.and when to park it.
Illya

What about brakes freezing? Do most of the King Airs up there have brake heat?

[fish4life]

Best way to keep brakes from freezing is to either not use them at all or drag the brakes so they are so hot that they vaporize slush when it hits. Carbon brakes prefer the heat method and steel prefer the don't use them method.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Pelmet, brakes freezing after the bird has been parked has been an issue. We have heat. We use it after takeoff while the wheels are retracted. They don't do much on the ground. The slush is an issue here when parking. Geeze, I'm as clear as mud.
Illya

[pelmet]

But my question was...do most King Air's have brake heat. The one I flew did not. I highly doubt that you can take off in 2" of slush using the suggested technique to drag the brakes while taxiing so that they are so hot that the slush is vaporized for the whole takeoff.

[Illya Kuryakin]

But my question was...do most King Air's have brake heat. The one I flew did not. I highly doubt that you can take off in 2" of slush using the suggested technique to drag the brakes while taxiing so that they are so hot that the slush is vaporized for the whole takeoff.

Yup. That's a first. Drag the brakes for takeoff? Nope.
Okay, ours have brake deice. And no, we don't drag them on takeoff.
Brake freeze is something we deal with after landing....a couple of inches of snow, and those puppies will freeze. We use a big screw driver to break them free to taxi.
Slush means it's mild enough the brakes probably won't freeze. After takeoff in slush we leave them down a bit (again, no science here....it just works) then leave the brake deice on after we retract them. It's just hot air (like most here) off the bleed air.
Sometimes, folks up here (I'm sure you know this) have to rely on "tricks" that work. Whenever you say "hey dude, try this...." they give you the "this is how they taught us at the academy" look, and nobody is willing to listen to the old fart who is trying to make life easier for them. I've watched these "aces" spend an hour spraying cold fluffy snow off their planes. Five knots of breeze and it'd be gone. But, that's "what they taught us at the academy....."
I suspect strongly, that "tossing" out some flap would have the thread subject here not be here at all.
Illya

[pelmet]

But my question was...do most King Air's have brake heat. The one I flew did not. I highly doubt that you can take off in 2" of slush using the suggested technique to drag the brakes while taxiing so that they are so hot that the slush is vaporized for the whole takeoff.

Yup. That's a first. Drag the brakes for takeoff? Nope.
Okay, ours have brake deice. And no, we don't drag them on takeoff.
Brake freeze is something we deal with after landing....a couple of inches of snow, and those puppies will freeze. We use a big screw driver to break them free to taxi.
Slush means it's mild enough the brakes probably won't freeze. After takeoff in slush we leave them down a bit (again, no science here....it just works) then leave the brake deice on after we retract them. It's just hot air (like most here) off the bleed air.
Sometimes, folks up here (I'm sure you know this) have to rely on "tricks" that work. Whenever you say "hey dude, try this...." they give you the "this is how they taught us at the academy" look, and nobody is willing to listen to the old fart who is trying to make life easier for them. I've watched these "aces" spend an hour spraying cold fluffy snow off their planes. Five knots of breeze and it'd be gone. But, that's "what they taught us at the academy....."
I suspect strongly, that "tossing" out some flap would have the thread subject here not be here at all.
Illya

I experienced frozen brakes on landing as a new F/O on the King Air. We took off on a cold day in several inches of nice fluffy snow for a medevac. Captain later claimed that he didn't touch the brakes on taxi which might have warmed them up our but he was the kind of guy that would deny it if he had. I have noticed when pushing some Cessna's that you can hear the rubbing of the pads on the brakes. Is it the same on the King Air? Maybe he didn't touch the brakes and there is some friction between the pads and the brakes on the King Air and normal taxiing heats them up, I don't know.

Anyways, we landed further up north on a plowed but 100% compact snow covered runway. We did a couple of 30 degree yaws left and right before control was regained. Glad we didn't land on pavement. Two of the tires had definite flat spots on them.

No brake heat installed.

[goingnowherefast]

That dragging noise is the pads touching the disks. There's no pressure applied to the system, so they're just "floating". Your car is the same way. Jack the plane up and give the wheels a spin and they're free. You'll see that the amount of drag is insignificant.

As for dragging the brakes and making them super hot. I bet your maintenance department loves you. Which CP decided that was an acceptable technique. If you land in snow, avoid using the brakes. Beta, reverse, whatever. If you do use them, keep the plane inching forward before you shut down. Even 1" every 10 seconds is often enough to keep the crap from freezing the brakes. Then don't set the parking brake and use the chocks. When you're walking around outside the plane, wiggle the wing tips often, it keeps enough movement in the brakes to hopefully break ice as it forms. Once you fire up again, King Airs are generally heavy enough that you can break the ice with power. (Just be careful you don't go racing into some other plane once the ice breaks). Leave the gear down until 1000' after takeoff will blow away most of what's left. Sometimes there's just not much you can do and you will wreck a tire, maybe your boss should install brake de-ice if they wanted to avoid that.

As for taking off in slush, or with any generally crap runway condition, having a reject point in mind is a good idea. "If I'm not at 80 kts by that burnt out runway light (or rock, taxiway, tree bump in the runway), we're ejecting"

[digits_]

we're ejecting"

sometimes I wish we could

[goingnowherefast]

Hahaha, some type-os are hilarious.

[pelmet]

Once you fire up again, King Airs are generally heavy enough that you can break the ice with power. (Just be careful you don't go racing into some other plane once the ice breaks).

Reminds me of many years ago up north, one of the F/O's at our airline brought in a piece of twisted metal from a prop belonging to some Conquest owned by a company doing business up north. It was a far northern arctic community and I can't remember if plane was stuck in ice or the brakes were frozen but the pilot of the aircraft tried to power out of it and jumped forward striking something. A new engine had to be brought in as a replacement for the Conquest.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Folks seem to be under the impression that the brakes won't get hot if you don't use them. Okay, don't use them. Hop out and put your paw on them. Get back to me after you've filled out the SMS paperwork on that one. The brakes just have to be warm enough to melt snow to freeze. Don't take much.
Illya

[pelmet]

That dragging noise is the pads touching the disks. There's no pressure applied to the system, so they're just "floating". Your car is the same way. Jack the plane up and give the wheels a spin and they're free. You'll see that the amount of drag is insignificant.

Folks seem to be under the impression that the brakes won't get hot if you don't use them. Okay, don't use them. Hop out and put your paw on them. Get back to me after you've filled out the SMS paperwork on that one. The brakes just have to be warm enough to melt snow to freeze. Don't take much.
Illya

Exactly my point. If there is some rubbing between the brake and the pad, there is friction which equals heat which I assume is enough to melt powder snow which is very well what might have happened in my frozen brake incident.

[fish4life]

Actually it is recommend by the manufacturer to "set 18% tq and use brakes to stay at a walking pace for 30 seconds"

Bottom of page 53

http://www.atraircraft.com/userfiles/fi ... 011_20.pdf

That dragging noise is the pads touching the disks. There's no pressure applied to the system, so they're just "floating". Your car is the same way. Jack the plane up and give the wheels a spin and they're free. You'll see that the amount of drag is insignificant.

As for dragging the brakes and making them super hot. I bet your maintenance department loves you. Which CP decided that was an acceptable technique. If you land in snow, avoid using the brakes. Beta, reverse, whatever. If you do use them, keep the plane inching forward before you shut down. Even 1" every 10 seconds is often enough to keep the crap from freezing the brakes. Then don't set the parking brake and use the chocks. When you're walking around outside the plane, wiggle the wing tips often, it keeps enough movement in the brakes to hopefully break ice as it forms. Once you fire up again, King Airs are generally heavy enough that you can break the ice with power. (Just be careful you don't go racing into some other plane once the ice breaks). Leave the gear down until 1000' after takeoff will blow away most of what's left. Sometimes there's just not much you can do and you will wreck a tire, maybe your boss should install brake de-ice if they wanted to avoid that.

As for taking off in slush, or with any generally crap runway condition, having a reject point in mind is a good idea. "If I'm not at 80 kts by that burnt out runway light (or rock, taxiway, tree bump in the runway), we're ejecting"

[pelmet]

Good catch. I had forgotten about that one. I would hesitate to apply ATR procedures to a King Air though.

Here is an old AvCanada thread on the subject. Some good info.

viewtopic.php?t=25649

[fish4life]

Like I stated in my previous post I think it has more to do with carbon brakes vs steel ones. They question is have is whether or not beachcraft publishes anything.

[pelmet]

Like I stated in my previous post I think it has more to do with carbon brakes vs steel ones. They question is have is whether or not beachcraft publishes anything.

A believe that steel brakes are on the -42 while carbon brakes are on the -72. At least in general.

The -42 and -72 manuals say "If contaminant layer is significant enough to possibly accumulate in the brake area during ground operation, brakes disks may join due to icing during the flight, leading to possible tyres damages at subsequent landing. The following special procedure should be applied during taxi before and as close as possible to take off. Set 18% Torque on each engine and keep taxi speed down to a "man pace" during 30 seconds using normal brakes with minimum use of nose wheel steering to ensure a symmetrical warming up of the brakes."

[pelmet]

Nothing overly scientific here. From what I've been able to gleen, is the crew just didn't have the acceleration they were expecting and elected to abort.

C-GFSB, a Beech 200 aircraft operated by Fast Air, was departing the soft gravel surface of Runway 18 at Bloodvein River, MB (CZTA) on its way to Winnipeg/James A. Richardson Intl, MB (CYWG). During the takeoff roll, the crew couldn't determine if takeoff rotation speed could be achieved, so the takeoff was rejected. The aircraft was unable to stop on the remaining runway, and came to rest in a marshy area approximately 150 feet beyond the runway end. There were no injuries to the occupants and the aircraft sustained minor damage.