+1cap41 wrote:People bitch about service, they also bitch about their wages and working conditions. Last time I checked no one was forcing you to do the job you do. No one is forcing you to work for XXX company. If you don't like it, move onto the next one. Its a free market ind as passengers and pilots.
Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
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- rookiepilot
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
I wonder if it's any coincidence that this was announced the same day WestJet pilots filed with the CIRB to hold an election for representation by ALPA.
- Stoptheworld
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
Just an alternative (perhaps conspiracy) theory: Westjet, by launching a separate brand, may be also trying to avoid Competition Bureau complaints from ULCC entrants when they try to smear them into the runway by cutting fares. They will be able to claim a separate cost structure from the mainline and further claim that the routes that they are facing competition from ULCC entrants on are not being subsidized by routes where there is no such competition.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
I just went and compared ticket prices from YYZ to YYC round trip tickets leaving on the same day. Friday May 26 with a return date of June 02. I gave a Torontonian a 2 week vacation in YYC.
Greyhound = $487.50
WestJet = 484.21
Greyhound 2 days 6hours/One way. (54 hours, but the coach does have washrooms onboard and wifi, no food included and many, many, many stops along the way to be able to get some).
WestJet 4hours 11 minutes Westbound (headwind flight).
Try pricing this for yourselves.
I'm getting tired of people saying its too expensive to fly. We need to make it cheaper. Waaah!!! I don't want to pay $400 to get to/from the centre of the universe.
I am totally against lowering pilot/cabin crew/maintenance/dispatchers wages to lower the ticket price.
The biggest cuts have to come from the top.
Greyhound = $487.50
WestJet = 484.21
Greyhound 2 days 6hours/One way. (54 hours, but the coach does have washrooms onboard and wifi, no food included and many, many, many stops along the way to be able to get some).
WestJet 4hours 11 minutes Westbound (headwind flight).
Try pricing this for yourselves.
I'm getting tired of people saying its too expensive to fly. We need to make it cheaper. Waaah!!! I don't want to pay $400 to get to/from the centre of the universe.
I am totally against lowering pilot/cabin crew/maintenance/dispatchers wages to lower the ticket price.
The biggest cuts have to come from the top.
"Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
There I sat broken heartedditar wrote:I wonder how much it'll cost to use the toilet.
Paid my toonie and only farted
Next time around, I took my chance
Kept my toonie, and shit my pants
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
I had a research paper on Spirit Airlines published a few years ago. I share it here for the sole reason that there are many questions about how the ULCC model works and it may answer a few for some people. I offer no opinion on whether this is good or bad, and obviously this has nothing to do with AirSprint.
http://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent ... text=jaaer
James
http://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent ... text=jaaer
James
- KenoraPilot
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
Union busting......but I'll just kick back, crack a beer and warm my hands on the flames of Westjets moral and culture.....(just my 2 cents)
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
dash8dave wrote:
I am totally against lowering pilot/cabin crew/maintenance/dispatchers wages to lower the ticket price.
The biggest cuts have to come from the top.
If you don't like the enviroment get the F out. again, no one is forcing you to work in any of these positions. Your tired of people complaining about the cost of flying. I'm tired of pilots complaining about the cost of living in YYZ. I have those same struggles concerning cost of living. So do the other 5 million people in the GTA. Again, find a job that pays you enough to thrive and survive whether in aviation or not. 100,000s of graduates find work work in a field other than their major. Why can't you, if you cannot survive on your pilots wage.
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
The problem is, if everyone has this attitude and nobody takes a stand, there will soon be no good jobs left to leave to. WAWCON at the major carriers has a lasting effect on every job in the industry.cap41 wrote:dash8dave wrote:
I am totally against lowering pilot/cabin crew/maintenance/dispatchers wages to lower the ticket price.
The biggest cuts have to come from the top.
If you don't like the enviroment get the F out. again, no one is forcing you to work in any of these positions. Your tired of people complaining about the cost of flying. I'm tired of pilots complaining about the cost of living in YYZ. I have those same struggles concerning cost of living. So do the other 5 million people in the GTA. Again, find a job that pays you enough to thrive and survive whether in aviation or not. 100,000s of graduates find work work in a field other than their major. Why can't you, if you cannot survive on your pilots wage.
PROC_HDG
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
I believe you entirely missed the point.cap41 wrote:dash8dave wrote:
I am totally against lowering pilot/cabin crew/maintenance/dispatchers wages to lower the ticket price.
The biggest cuts have to come from the top.
If you don't like the enviroment get the F out. again, no one is forcing you to work in any of these positions. Your tired of people complaining about the cost of flying. I'm tired of pilots complaining about the cost of living in YYZ. I have those same struggles concerning cost of living. So do the other 5 million people in the GTA. Again, find a job that pays you enough to thrive and survive whether in aviation or not. 100,000s of graduates find work work in a field other than their major. Why can't you, if you cannot survive on your pilots wage.

And that's too bad because it was a very good one.
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
This. Right. Here.dash8dave wrote:
The biggest cuts have to come from the top.
You want to lower airframes? Get the 'big heads' hands out of the cookie jar. That includes the kickbacks to the governing bodies and the ridiculously high fees for airports(AIF's) and nav. We don't need another jade sculpture at YVR...
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
I totally agree the AC HD 777 is brutal. Unfortunately it looks like your choices will be limited soon:rookiepilot wrote:It's not what I want, as one consumer.. I'm flying to Asia twice this year, and for the first time I've ditched AC and am flying Cathay. AC with their HD 777 went over my personal line. Lotta horrible reviews too. When air travel slows with the economy, lets see how well that strategy works.oldtimer wrote:We are all slamming WestJet for their ultra low cost carrier and how it may affect the pilots and the employees but we must not forget that all this is driven by the consumers.
Won't catch me on Rouge or WJ's product if I can help it, and I'll gladly give my money to foreign carriers. All about the space for me.
https://thepointsguy.com/2017/03/cathay ... s-economy/
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
I don't think the conversation should be about whether Canadian consumers might benefit from an ULCC but whether or not Westjet should be the one to do it?? Westjet is a profitable and growing company facing next to no competition in the ULCC sector. What is the motivation for employees to make wage concessions to enable Westjet to start an ULCC?? Bragging rights about having a bit more market share? Seeing an extra $25 on their profit share cheque??
Southwest was supposed to be what Westjet is modeled after and they seem perfectly content being a 737 low-cost carrier that pays industry leading wages. As long as the profits keep rolling in, why change? Growth for the sake of growth? Meanwhile we see Westjet expanding into areas like regional flying requiring concessions on the backs of their employees and dragging down the rest of the industry as they do it. Face it Westjetters, you'll never be Air Canada... and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with being a 100+ aircraft airline with a North American route structure. There's everything wrong with being an employee group at a profitable company that jumps at the chance to lower working conditions just so management can brag about growing the airline. Stop being the drunk guy at the bar with short man syndrome and picking fights that don't exist just so you can brag to your buddies.
Southwest was supposed to be what Westjet is modeled after and they seem perfectly content being a 737 low-cost carrier that pays industry leading wages. As long as the profits keep rolling in, why change? Growth for the sake of growth? Meanwhile we see Westjet expanding into areas like regional flying requiring concessions on the backs of their employees and dragging down the rest of the industry as they do it. Face it Westjetters, you'll never be Air Canada... and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with being a 100+ aircraft airline with a North American route structure. There's everything wrong with being an employee group at a profitable company that jumps at the chance to lower working conditions just so management can brag about growing the airline. Stop being the drunk guy at the bar with short man syndrome and picking fights that don't exist just so you can brag to your buddies.
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
I may have missed the point. But, again, go get that "top" job and change things. We/you are employees. Don't like your management ? don't like the business model? maybe time to move on. Bitching never solves an issue. The problem is some pilots think that they are highly specialized. They are to an extent. However there are thousands of other pilots that will take the job if you don't want, or don't like it. That maybe a sad commentary on the state of aviation. Its like most industries you are highly trained highly educated. However so are many many others.True North wrote:I believe you entirely missed the point.cap41 wrote:dash8dave wrote:
I am totally against lowering pilot/cabin crew/maintenance/dispatchers wages to lower the ticket price.
The biggest cuts have to come from the top.
If you don't like the enviroment get the F out. again, no one is forcing you to work in any of these positions. Your tired of people complaining about the cost of flying. I'm tired of pilots complaining about the cost of living in YYZ. I have those same struggles concerning cost of living. So do the other 5 million people in the GTA. Again, find a job that pays you enough to thrive and survive whether in aviation or not. 100,000s of graduates find work work in a field other than their major. Why can't you, if you cannot survive on your pilots wage.
And that's too bad because it was a very good one.
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
cap41 wrote:dash8dave wrote:
I am totally against lowering pilot/cabin crew/maintenance/dispatchers wages to lower the ticket price.
The biggest cuts have to come from the top.
If you don't like the enviroment get the F out. again, no one is forcing you to work in any of these positions. Your tired of people complaining about the cost of flying. I'm tired of pilots complaining about the cost of living in YYZ. I have those same struggles concerning cost of living. So do the other 5 million people in the GTA. Again, find a job that pays you enough to thrive and survive whether in aviation or not. 100,000s of graduates find work work in a field other than their major. Why can't you, if you cannot survive on your pilots wage.
Whoaaa cap41. I must have said my point incorrectly. I wasn't complaining about living in YYZ and its cost, I was saying that senior management in the ivory towers need to make compensations too. If pilots and mtce and dispatch and cabin crews are required to take the hit then so must the BOD's. The share holders of those companies also need to be told you aren't getting xx% return on your money this year you will only get x as we need to re-invest into the company and pay the employees more.
I'm sorry that I didn't make myself clear.
"Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
Its like most industries you are highly trained highly educated.
This is something I never could figure out, the education requirement to be a pilot is no more than being able to read and write.
The education that is given by a flight school is really not all that difficult and the whole time from zero to commercial pilot is relatively fast compared to becoming a doctor for instance.
So yes flying an aircraft for a living is a profession that is specialized, however it is easily attainable by the average person looking for a profession.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
Cat Driver wrote:Its like most industries you are highly trained highly educated.
This is something I never could figure out, the education requirement to be a pilot is no more than being able to read and write.
The education that is given by a flight school is really not all that difficult and the whole time from zero to commercial pilot is relatively fast compared to becoming a doctor for instance.
So yes flying an aircraft for a living is a profession that is specialized, however it is easily attainable by the average person looking for a profession.
If its easily attained, why are most people expecting salaries equivalent to an MBA grad?
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
dash8dave wrote:cap41 wrote:dash8dave wrote:
I am totally against lowering pilot/cabin crew/maintenance/dispatchers wages to lower the ticket price.
The biggest cuts have to come from the top.
If you don't like the enviroment get the F out. again, no one is forcing you to work in any of these positions. Your tired of people complaining about the cost of flying. I'm tired of pilots complaining about the cost of living in YYZ. I have those same struggles concerning cost of living. So do the other 5 million people in the GTA. Again, find a job that pays you enough to thrive and survive whether in aviation or not. 100,000s of graduates find work work in a field other than their major. Why can't you, if you cannot survive on your pilots wage.
Whoaaa cap41. I must have said my point incorrectly. I wasn't complaining about living in YYZ and its cost, I was saying that senior management in the ivory towers need to make compensations too. If pilots and mtce and dispatch and cabin crews are required to take the hit then so must the BOD's. The share holders of those companies also need to be told you aren't getting xx% return on your money this year you will only get x as we need to re-invest into the company and pay the employees more.
I'm sorry that I didn't make myself clear.
I generalize with other threads when speaking about cost of living etc.
However, if there is a problem in the ivory tower. I would suggest a job inside the ivory tower to contribute to change. Or, become a shareholder, goto the shareholder meetings, express your concern. I tend to agree with you, however if the CEO is making the shareholders money, he's doing the right thing by his mandate.
The fact that we have take the hit for that, is something that we are all aware of when we accept a position. My job has changed 10 fold since the day I signed with my company. I accept or I leave.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
Good question, but reality is the average commercial pilot makes about what a plumber makes.If its easily attained, why are most people expecting salaries equivalent to an MBA grad?
Considering it takes longer to become a plumber and flying an airplane is a lot less work than being a plumber the pilot is over paid?

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
- rookiepilot
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
The bigger question is why do MBA grads expect a giant pay package right out of the gate?
They don't know anything yet. Less than a 200 hr CPL.
They don't know anything yet. Less than a 200 hr CPL.
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
im not sure they expect the same. My point was some pilots think that they are the tip of the human chain because they can fly airplanes. The fact is its a job 100,000s can do. So, they should be paid like most others in the position. The other problem, is free market. There is always someone that thinks your job is the cats ass. Even if you think it sucks. Aviation is just like any other industry. Paid what the market will bare. Plus there will always be people younger looking to do your job at a cheaper rate. Thats the economy we live. Like i said in my first post. don't like it....Get OUT!! we are simple cogs in the wheel. easily replaced. The thing to do, is become the wheel! not the cogs.
Cogs will always complain about how hard done by they are. Always blame others for their misfortune. How do you spell entitlement? P I L O T!
Cogs will always complain about how hard done by they are. Always blame others for their misfortune. How do you spell entitlement? P I L O T!
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
The good part is if you stick with it and become good at what you do you will eventually be able to earn a reasonably good living as a pilot.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
cap41 wrote:im not sure they expect the same. My point was some pilots think that they are the tip of the human chain because they can fly airplanes. The fact is its a job 100,000s can do. So, they should be paid like most others in the position. The other problem, is free market. There is always someone that thinks your job is the cats ass. Even if you think it sucks. Aviation is just like any other industry. Paid what the market will bare. Plus there will always be people younger looking to do your job at a cheaper rate. Thats the economy we live. Like i said in my first post. don't like it....Get OUT!! we are simple cogs in the wheel. easily replaced. The thing to do, is become the wheel! not the cogs.
Cogs will always complain about how hard done by they are. Always blame others for their misfortune. How do you spell entitlement? P I L O T!
I agree for the most part, though we are becoming not so 'easily replaced' with the pilot shortage real and happening.
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
We are paid based on having the responsibility of lives sitting behinds us... generally, the more lives in the back the more money you make. Non medical professionals don't have the responsibility we do.
Re: Westjet to start ultra low cost carrier
WJ doesn't have a foothold in the business class or international markets so from a business perspective they're not about to let anyone else come in and eat their lunch. You can gripe all you want about the race to the bottom but at the end of the day this is a reactionary move against a threat to their bottom line. After the rapid expansion of Sunwing, WJ will never again let a new entrant establish themselves without competing against them directly. At present, NewLeaf is on the ropes and the other ULCC entrants are still securing financing. I imagine that this will be harder to do now that WJ has staked their claim. This could all be posturing, trying to clip their wings before they even get off the ground, but I doubt it.
Of course if they follow through with it, what will that look like? Personally I think they're biting off more than they can chew. They have a floundering WB program, exponential growth at Encore under "tenuous" recruitment levels, now this ULCC plus a union drive?! So many variables. The union is going to stick this time. So the question is how quickly will Encore follow suit? Where will the 100 or so pilots come from to staff this new venture? Encore can't spare anyone which is why flow has been throttled back to 50%. And I doubt it would make much sense for anyone at mainline to make the move over... Throw in some massive hiring from AC to complement their MAX orders (rumour that WJ pilots no longer need references, just a pay stub)!
How all this turns out in 6-12 months is anyone's guess! Interesting times!
Of course if they follow through with it, what will that look like? Personally I think they're biting off more than they can chew. They have a floundering WB program, exponential growth at Encore under "tenuous" recruitment levels, now this ULCC plus a union drive?! So many variables. The union is going to stick this time. So the question is how quickly will Encore follow suit? Where will the 100 or so pilots come from to staff this new venture? Encore can't spare anyone which is why flow has been throttled back to 50%. And I doubt it would make much sense for anyone at mainline to make the move over... Throw in some massive hiring from AC to complement their MAX orders (rumour that WJ pilots no longer need references, just a pay stub)!
How all this turns out in 6-12 months is anyone's guess! Interesting times!