STOP THIS PILOT-IN-WAITING...

[valleyboy]

I can't understand why there are so many operators using a pilot want-a-be program. Pilots do not make good gofers or swampers. They are totally worth what little money they get. Either they quit when they wake up and realize that "right"seat or the 180 is a long way away or they hang in and are as useless as tits on a bull because reality kicks in and they are not "in to" the job anymore. So now more are hired and need training (which usually includes screw ups like fuel spills, bent fenders and the list goes on. So in my book it's false economy. I would never hire a full time pilot wanabee.

[Donald]

Well North Star Air at least came up with fancy titles for their pilot-wannabes!

[HighDreams]

Some interesting reads in this thread.

I'm not here to pick fights or anything just to add to a meaningful respectful conversation.

I got my license about 4 years ago now and bounced around a bit and ended up taking a bit of a break due to some family stuff. I'm looking at getting back into it, my problem is I didn't get flying. Someone with 700 hours may have an easier time getting back into aviation as they have some hours. No doubt it's been challenging.

I am a believer that there always is a better way to do something. And one way might work for one person but someone else has a way that works for them. A lot of different jobs you have to gain some experience. For flying I think coming out and ramping for 2 years isn't the best way. You're a pilot. A professional. The skills you've gained are rusty. Why not do something like an "apprenticeship" Most jobs regardless the field has a probation period of 3 months or so. Basically if you're not a good worker etc gone. So why in aviation do they think it should be 2 years to determine character etc. I get planes are expensive. You went to flight school for a period, invested time and money and had to overcome the hurdles of exams and flight tests. Not everyone can get through it so that is an accomplishment in itself. You've proven you have an ability to be able to fly. Like learning to ride a bike or drive, you're new and get the basics down and you need to build upon that foundation you received. So maybe 3 months to get to know the company and them to know you. If they like your ethic etc then even get you flying part time for a bit before you're flying full time. I think it would be good for both parties. They determine you're half decent and you got to know the company a bit and it's not 2 years so when you get flying everything isn't as rusty. Also, even as a new FO, you won't know it all. The captains are like mentors. You should learn a lot from them.

Unfortunately I'm what some may think of me in this industry as a nobody. I don't have a voice or not much of one. I have no right to say anything as I'm not experienced and if I do some may think I have an attitude problem. If everyone thought they were nobodys then throughout history where would we be today? Gender rights, LGBQ rights. Standing up to racism. People stood up and said hey this isn't right. Maybe there's a better way to do something. We all need to be open to better ways of doing something, not just in aviation but our own lives. On all levels of this industry we have to find a better way. Experienced vs non-experienced. Flight training to the bush to the Airlines. The people that have had to work 2 years on the ramp shouldn't feel everyone that comes after them should have to as well as they did

Sorry for the length. Food for thought I hope

[trey kule]

Spending a year or two in anon flying position does not enhance your flying skills, or provide relevant experience.

It is a big carrot held out to our most vulernable pilots,.

But it will simply never stop as humans are generally optimists and can rationalize pretty much anything.

[Black_Tusk]

I don't know if it's really the case (or if it's just my narrow view) but I can also see age being a factor. A 20 year old who's never had a job outside of school would seem more likely to be a rampie to fly. Someone in their late 20's or early 30's who got into the industry a bit later in life after working in another industry/career would be more likely to realize what their time is worth. Most rampies I have met, or people who did the job in the past were all young at the time. Obviously there will be outliers, but this is the trend I have seen.

To me, being a rampie is like being a lot attendant at a dealership. A job I had when I was 19, and it allowed me to progress into sales. However, in that industry I had zero experience.. just a green HS kid wanting to make some money so I had to put in work. Flying on the other hand, you enter the industry with a license. Even with the limited experience a new pilot has, it's still experience and should not require hucking bags for 2 years at Tindi or Summit, being treated like garbage the whole way through.

[Cat Driver]

What does it take to qualify to learn to be a commercial pilot?

Here is an outline I posted on another forum.

The requirements are.


Be able to pass a T.C. medical.


Be able to read and write at at least a grade four level.


( I have changed the above to grade eight so as not to offend anyone, grade four might be a a bit low even though it would be accepted. )


Be able to pass a set of written exams with the allowance to re write any you fail, until you get the answers they want correct.


Have a normal physical skills level that allow you to operate a mechanical device such as a car, a truck an airplane.


Be able to find enough money to pay for the flight training.


Be willing to work for wages that a truck driver would turn down, maybe for years before you upgrade to better paying jobs.


Be willing to trade an airplane for your family for long periods of time.


That basically describes what being a pilot involves....


.....so I often try and point out that being a pilot does not really require all that much of a person except miss a lot of the early growing time of your children.

[Black_Tusk]

What does it take to qualify to learn to be a commercial pilot?

Here is an outline I posted on another forum.

The requirements are.


Be able to pass a T.C. medical.


Be able to read and write at at least a grade four level.


( I have changed the above to grade eight so as not to offend anyone, grade four might be a a bit low even though it would be accepted. )


Be able to pass a set of written exams with the allowance to re write any you fail, until you get the answers they want correct.


Have a normal physical skills level that allow you to operate a mechanical device such as a car, a truck an airplane.


Be able to find enough money to pay for the flight training.


Be willing to work for wages that a truck driver would turn down, maybe for years before you upgrade to better paying jobs.


Be willing to trade an airplane for your family for long periods of time.


That basically describes what being a pilot involves....


.....so I often try and point out that being a pilot does not really require all that much of a person except miss a lot of the early growing time of your children.

Yes, we all know what your views are on the subject.

[Cat Driver]

Obviously you find my views not to your liking.

What part/'s of my views are not true?

If you have a problem with what I wrote at least point out where I am wrong.

[AuxBatOn]

What about a 2 year wait (doing work mostly unrelated to flying) at 45k/year for a shot at getting in a cockpit making 70-75k a year?

[Cat Driver]

What about a 2 year wait (doing work mostly unrelated to flying) at 45k/year for a shot at getting in a cockpit making 70-75k a year?

That would be a personal decision that an individual would have to make.

I was never in that position but if I had been I would have made the decision based on several factors, the first being the reputation of the company offering the job and the kind of flying I would be offered and the location/'s of the flying etc.

[LifeAt90Kts]

Don't know where you're getting the $45k a year from... Summit offered me $30k to ramp for them for 2 years 12 months ago. Another just a little father north than that offered $24k (with housing). A company in Sioux Lookout offered $24k (no housing). I figured it out to $12 / hour.

Now call me an entitled millennial if you'd like, but that barely covers my flight school loan and enough ramen to keep myself alive hauling bags in -45.

Those wages stay the same once you upgrade to FO... You just get milage in addition. Which works out to a few hundred extra a month.

[Cat Driver]

Are they actually getting people to work that long on the ground at those wages?

[Bahd]

I am just wondering where all these flying jobs direct from flight schools are... Last spring I was an instructor with 1100 hours and it took me 5 months to get a call to a FO Navajo job. I dont really see what wrong with working on the ground for 6-12 months at the company you will fly for rather than be unemployed waiting for a flying job.

Separate question, ground guys get treated like shit? Ive been a 703 captain for 8-9 months and the ground guy get treated great! show up after me and leave before me!

[AuxBatOn]

Forgot to say that after 2 years at 45k/year and company training, your bond is 7 years, pro-rated. Your start salary after company training is 75k, up to 100k a year after 5-7 years. Do yo take the job or not? Why?

[Cat Driver]

If you are talking about the Air Force and I was young, yes in a heart beat.

[5x5]

I am just wondering where all these flying jobs direct from flight schools are... Last spring I was an instructor with 1100 hours and it took me 5 months to get a call to a FO Navajo job. I dont really see what wrong with working on the ground for 6-12 months at the company you will fly for rather than be unemployed waiting for a flying job.

Separate question, ground guys get treated like shit? Ive been a 703 captain for 8-9 months and the ground guy get treated great! show up after me and leave before me!

Bahd, you're kind of new here and may not realize it yet, but a lot of posters here exaggerate things to try and may a point.

Yes, I know it's hard to believe, but they actually think they can "win" an argument on the internet and that over-stating things in support of their point of view will help.

[Bahd]

Yes, I know it's hard to believe, but they actually think they can "win" an argument on the internet and that over-stating things in support of their point of view will help.

I think the simple solution is just let everyone with a CPL, IATRA and no job go to Jazz! Thats the only company I know hiring 250 hour flap operators

[Black_Tusk]

Yes, I know it's hard to believe, but they actually think they can "win" an argument on the internet and that over-stating things in support of their point of view will help.

I think the simple solution is just let everyone with a CPL, IATRA and no job go to Jazz! Thats the only company I know hiring 250 hour flap operators

YES! Only flap operators here at Jazz. We never get to fly from the right seat, it really sucks.




ps. I know you're kidding.

[confusedalot]

Are they actually getting people to work that long on the ground at those wages?

Not saying it is right, a rather large portion of people in this country work for minimum wage, in what is termed unskilled labor.

[Cat Driver]

Black-Tusk.

What part of my post do you think is not true?

Obviously you find my views not to your liking.

What part/'s of my views are not true?

If you have a problem with what I wrote at least point out where I am wrong.

[phillyfan]

The years of trophies for losers and the effort to stop bullying in schools has resulted in a generation of useless babies. Lets pray Boeing gets those pilot-less planes going asap.

[lownslow]

Are they actually getting people to work that long on the ground at those wages?

It's incredible, but yes. One interesting aspect of the typical pilot's personality is that they're always right and you're always wrong. I mean, just look around this place, right? Anyways, there's an awful lot of 250 hour pilots who are convinced that the ramp is the way to go and there's nothing you can do to convince them otherwise, regardless of your credentials.

[Illya Kuryakin]

If your confidence level as a pilot is so low, you feel the need to be a "pilot in waiting", then by all means, go for it!
Illya

[Diadem]

The years of trophies for losers and the effort to stop bullying in schools has resulted in a generation of useless babies. Lets pray Boeing gets those pilot-less planes going asap.

I guess we can attribute that to the failures of Baby Boomers as parents and role-models.

[Black_Tusk]

Black-Tusk.

What part of my post do you think is not true?

Obviously you find my views not to your liking.

What part/'s of my views are not true?

If you have a problem with what I wrote at least point out where I am wrong.

Everything you say is true, Cat. Why bother arguing?