Category 1 with past marijuana use?

[Apollo]

If we're going along this path, might as well ban those who drink alcohol or have drank alcohol too.

[xsbank]

I always hoped that professional pilots would take their responsibilities seriously but it seems that to many, its just a job. The fact that many are holding other people's lives in their hands doesn't seem to matter, its their right to do anything they want and that's the most important part.

I knew about 10 pilots who thundered in and some like JC who I corresponded with but never met - only one I was aware of flew with bad hangovers and killed somebody else. I wonder if these snowflakes will begin to see the seriousness of this profession, where people die when they screw up, to maybe finally teach them the meaning of "professional" and make the point that you cannot risk being impaired in your ability to give your best?

[xsbank]

Apollo, that was pretty fatuous, but thank you for your contribution.

You edited it but it still is what it is.

[Apollo]

Yeah - I realized it was somewhat uncalled for, so I changed it.

But if we're going to lynch anyone who has ever smoked MJ (before or after getting their license), then I think the same should be done for alcohol too - it is just as much of an intoxicant as any other drug.

[atphat]

it is just as much of an intoxicant as any other drug.

Please. No more facts or common sense.

[xsbank]

That's a straw man and you know it. Stupid thing is, you all know when you're wasted and you are not performing to your best level. Go ahead and live your lives as you wish, your character is what defines you.

I'm done with this. Just stop fooling yourselves that you are somehow "professional."

[atphat]

I'm not condoning drug use at all. You just sound dated and out of touch. Because I believe marijuana is no more dangerous than alcohol I'm not professional?

[Cat Driver]

You just sound dated and out of touch. Because I believe marijuana is no more dangerous than alcohol I'm not professional?

Alcohol can be a very dangerous substance because it can become so addictive over time it can interfere with your ability to safely fly.

I can not personally comment on the dangers posed by marijuana but I can state that an addiction to alcohol can ruin your career if not cured in time.

I have difficulty understanding why any professional pilot might try and defend the use of any mind altering substance, note I said professional pilot.

[FishermanIvan]

How many here see nothing wrong with a professional pilot using marijuana?

None at all, as long as it's not in the cockpit.

Most of us drink, right? Just not in the cockpit. (for the record, I don't smoke weed, ever, but I don't have any issue with those who do)

[av8ts]

Just like you can have a drink on your day off and still be a professional pilot I think you can enjoy a little mj on your day off and still be a professional pilot. It's what happens at work that matters.

[Cat Driver]

Maybe things have changed but when I was in the flying business the US customs and immigration would not allow a known marijuana user into the USA.

[Big Bird Anonymous]

I doubt that I know a pilot who hasn't smoked marijuana.

Never did, never will. I'm not a degenerate and I don't believe I'm alone in this industry.

What a hero! I'd rather be a degenerate than a cpc dbag!

[Meatservo]

I'm concerned about the proliferation of false information we seem to have more of these days, thanks to social media and the internet, plus the apparent de-emphasis on science that appears to be the social norm these days.

Does marijuana, or does it not, cause changes in the brain as a result of prolonged, regular use? Some say it does, and some say it does not. Someone is lying. Who? Both the pro-weed and the anti-weed people are guilty of spreading fake facts. Like how it cures cancer. I'm pretty sure it's an effective palliative medicine for people who are experiencing pain or lack of appetite, but let's be very skeptical when it comes to claims that it has any curative qualities, especially when it is inhaled as smoke!

Likewise, we do know that alcohol can damage your brain. We know that it is an intoxicant. But we also know a lot of facts about how long it lasts, and we have pretty good rules about what constitutes "impairment". We have fairly well-developed social stigma against people who cannot control themselves to the extent necessary to ensure they are not intoxicated at work. We know how to test against this when it comes to alcohol. With alcohol there is no believable folklore that "it makes me drive better" or "it cures kidney disease" or any of the inane things you hear from the pro-marijuana movement.

This is what I'm going to need to see before I cease to be concerned about marijuana use by pilots. Making the possession and use of marijuana a non-criminal act is one thing, now we need to work hard to bring our understanding of just what it does to the same level we have for alcohol. Until that happens I would prefer to advise pilots to restrict their use of it, if it is something they enjoy, to those times where it's reasonable to assume it has worn off before going to work. The same way we (should) do with alcohol.

Let's get one thing straight: normalizing and de-stigmatizing the use of marijuana is not going to make aviation, or anything else, any safer. People who don't use it themselves aren't going to support it unless they can be sure that pressure is brought to bear on those who will, to be responsible about it. Never mind people who say " as long as it's not in the cockpit". "How long before the cockpit" should be what they are concerned with.

I'm not one for telling people not to do things in their spare time. However, I can tell by the way a person talks whether they smoked a lot of dope when they were young. Quite a few of my friends have this characteristic dopey drawl, eye-half-lidded, mouth-slightly-open, resting face that to me is an indicator of pretty heavy teenage dope use. I am actually pretty convinced of it and this makes me curious about what it does to people's brains when they are in development. Most of these guys function at normal levels so I certainly would not use it as a basis for discrimination, or at least I like to think I wouldn't. It makes me want to know more before I can say I support it or not, however. Marijuana obviously does something different to your brain than alcohol does. I would like to know more about that, the way we do with alcohol, before I throw my opinion behind any "yea" or "nay" with respect to whether I think there should be different rules for pilots that there are for the general public. I do certainly believe the issue deserves careful, bullshit-free consideration!

[Canoehead]

Maybe give this little gem a re-read...

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 1w0151.asp

A few things to consider (if you see no problem with holding a license and using... even occasionally):

1) If this pilot had life insurance, do you think they paid up?
2) How do you think the family of this guy felt when they first found out what was coming out in the report?
3) If his engine had failed, and he was the hero who managed to safely put it down and saved everyone's life in the process, would the TSB have omitted the toxicology results?

That's some legacy.

This pilot was flying intoxicated. However, even if he wasn't at the time, THC can remain detectable in urine up to 7-30 days depending on use. 90 days detectable in hair.

Still worth it?

[Cat Driver]

Maybe things have changed but when I was in the flying business the US customs and immigration would not allow a known marijuana user into the USA.

Does anyone know if this is still true?

[daedalusx]

They kick you off the special forces groups for pot use. Even legal use.

They kick you off from nuke subs for pot use. Even legal use.

They'll remove/suspend your TS/SCI clearance for pot use. Even legal use.

What do they know right ? 420 BLAZE IT EVERY DAY DUDE !

Enjoy explaining to the Judge why your tox report came out the way it did the day that something happens. Even if you're not under the influence... for all we know, the Tindi guy probably wasn't either.... look at his legacy now. Is that how you want to be remembered?

[Meatservo]

... for all we know, the Tindi guy probably wasn't either....

What do you mean "for all we know"? We know a lot. He was intoxicated. 50 nanograms per millilitre of delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol in his femoral blood. That's what I mean about ignoring science. "For all we know" indeed.

[cncpc]

Maybe things have changed but when I was in the flying business the US customs and immigration would not allow a known marijuana user into the USA.

Does anyone know if this is still true?

Statistically, the majority of adult Canadians are known marijuana users.

Thousands of marijuana users are allowed into the US every day. Some of them go there to buy legal pot.

[kevenv]

Maybe things have changed but when I was in the flying business the US customs and immigration would not allow a known marijuana user into the USA.

Does anyone know if this is still true?

Statistically, the majority of adult Canadians are known marijuana users.

Thousands of marijuana users are allowed into the US every day. Some of them go there to buy legal pot.

When I lived in Vancouver 2014, the US was banning people from entering the country if they admitted to smoking pot. Just because it is legal at the state level doesn't mean the federal government allows it. It is still happening. Have a read: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pot-bor ... -1.3752278

[stef]

If you smoke you're probably giving your money to Hells Angels or other violent criminal organizations. Not me.

[No Smoke, No Fire]

I had to check my calendar to make sure I hadn't time-travelled back to 1952. The ignorance, and frankly hypocrisy, in this thread is stunning. I'm sure most of us open a beer or two with friends on a hot Saturday afternoon, but someone who might replace that beer with cannabis is suddenly a degenerate... Conflating occasional pot usage with an addiction is the same as saying you're an alcoholic because you had two pints last Saturday.

Now I personally don't smoke, and even if I wanted to, I get drug tested like a sizeable portion of us in this discussion. But that doesn't change the fact that people should stay out of other's business especially when their preconceived notions may be doing others harm. I have a friend who has a rare seizure disorder, that is resistant to pharmacological treatment, and one of the only even partially effective treatments is the occasional use of cannabis. Is this person a degenerate? No, absolutely not.

If you'd stop getting your evidence from Joe Blow on Facebook, you might be interested to learn that on a scale of harm, alcohol usage heavily outweighs cannabis usage. Does that justify pilot A from getting stoned on his way to work to go fly a Q400? Definitely not. That person has a serious substance abuse issue if they can't stop themselves from becoming intoxicated before operating an aircraft, just the same as pilot B who woke up, had a few drinks, and then went flying. But I don't believe for a second that out of two identical individuals, one who drank after work on Friday, and one who smoked after work on Friday, the one who smoked is any less professional or responsible when he shows up for work Monday morning.

[5x5]

Statistically, the majority of adult Canadians are known marijuana users.

Any chance you can post a link to a verifiable study that supports that? The use of the word "statistically" before the statement of an opinion doesn't make it a fact.

I have a friend who has a rare seizure disorder, that is resistant to pharmacological treatment, and one of the only even partially effective treatments is the occasional use of cannabis. Is this person a degenerate? No, absolutely not.

As above, the use of "I have a friend..." or "I know a guy...." is impossible to substantiate and doesn't make the rest of the statement true, particularly when posted anonymously on an internet general discussion forum. And even if it is true, one instance doesn't prove or disprove anything.

I think Meatservo is on the right track, there is much more quantitative knowledge about the effects of alcohol than there is for marijuana. It does seem to be that the effects, while both are generally impairment, are actually rather different. Arguing that society tends to accept alcohol so we should also openly accept marijuana is pretty weak.

[xsbank]

Ignorance? As there is no universally-agreed level of thc in the blood to determine intoxication, would you agree, strictly as a professional pilot, that as thc is detectable in the blood for up to 30 days, that you have no idea if the effects of thc are gone "by Monday morning?"

I don't care about who uses mj unless you are a professional pilot, then I think that yes, you are a degenerate and if you fly after having smoked up you are putting lives at risk.

The alcohol argument is bs as there is a clearly-defined measure of alcohol in your blood. It is all metabolized out of your bloodstream "by Monday morning." That does not take into account the lost sleep or the dehydrahion or or side effects that may also affect a professional pilot.

The point of all this is that if you choose to be a professional pilot you have chosen a profession that puts high demands on you personally and your ability to choose intoxicants goes way beyond your personal choice. You have a duty to do a better job than the guy who drives a road grader or a backhoe.

Presumably most of you have noticed that usually there are a bunch of other people in the airplane with you, and if not, remember that the airplane belongs to somebody else and you have been entrusted with its care? How dare you call me ignorant!

[No Smoke, No Fire]

Ignorance? As there is no universally-agreed level of thc in the blood to determine intoxication, would you agree, strictly as a professional pilot, that as thc is detectable in the blood for up to 30 days, that you have no idea if the effects of thc are gone "by Monday morning?"

Well, just to clarify a little bit: THC is NOT detectable in the blood for 30 days, the reality is more like 24 hours. You are thinking of a urine test where it is not actually detecting THC, rather it's detecting a metabolite from the compounds broken down after the body processes the THC. The reason that metabolite is detectable for such a long duration is because it is stored in fat cells, which is unique among intoxicants. So, a urine test is not even remotely an indicator of intoxication. So no, I would not agree.

Sounds like ignorance to me!

I do agree though that "if you fly after having smoked up you are putting lives at risk.". Absolutely agree with that. Same as drinking before flying, or flying if you're sick or fatigued, etc.

[xsbank]

"Blood tests are a better detector of recent use, since they measure the active presence of THC in the system. Because they are invasive and difficult to administer, blood tests are used less frequently. They are typically used in investigations of accidents, injuries and DUIs, where they can give a useful indication of whether the subject was actually under the influence." 2-7 days.

From California NORML.

That make it better No Smoke?

What comes through loud and clear that despite years and years of use, there are aspects of this substance that are a complete mystery, so I am changing my tune: as there is so little known about the effects of marijuana, I think every pilot should use it. Why not, its a mystery. Thousands of smoking snowflakes can't be wrong, its ok to smoke and fly. If this article is definitive, you can smoke up any time from 2-7 days before you go on duty - pick one.