Hand spanking C47

[Cat Driver]

Not just luck, but it is definitely a factor.

If you read my posts over the years I often point out how luck was what saved my day on some occasions.

However logic dictates that my getting through over thirty thousand hours flying for a living had to be more what I learned than luck.

Personally I credit it to excellent training from my first job crop dusting job to excellent training in the fire bombing business and of course excellent training in flying in the air display business...not to mention having to renew the license every year to maintain said license.

All told the above three types of flying added up to thirty years of flying in relatively high risk low level flying jobs.

[Bacunayagua]

Speaking of flying skills Bacunayagua I read your posts here since you started and thought I would ask you if you ever got enough experience to get hired on a two crew airplane?

You wrote:

What options does a 1700 hour guy have over there?

No Turbine or two crew.

1700 TT
1550 PIC
650 MPIC

Why, are you guys hiring?

Spot on. These guys had ADF's, VOR's and Loran-C's. the real pilots were the ones long before that. Yet this group make themselves out to sound like their cojones won't fit in their pants'

It's simple fellas, no one is claiming you guy's aren't good pilots. But many of the industry practises from your times, were simply archaic or ignorant at best. I've read from one of you "old timers" about taking off with a DC-3 full of ice because you 'didn't think it was that much'. Which you then claimed to find out how dead wrong you were. The shitty SOP's you guys mock so much would have something to say about that.

I've even been in the presence of NWONT when he regaled a group of young pilots with tales of how he used to fly 185's full of passengers without seatbelt or seats and cram as many as he could in there. But hey, he got the job done right?

Like "digits_" and "goingnowhere" fast already mentioned, you guys have a lot of late friends that died or got seriously injured doing the exact same bullshit you guys did. Just because you are some of the ones that made it through, does not mean your way was better. Actually statistics prove your way was quantifiably worse. See thats the beauty about math, it doesn't lie, bitch all you want.

By the way, you old timers should read Fate is the Hunter if by any chance you guys haven't. He touches on the topic of luck/fate quite often.

[NWONT]

That's absolutely right!! I did haul hundreds of passengers without seat belts and flew with iced up wings, once I even did a 22 hour duty day, etc, etc. I flew planes with a long list of snags when parts weren't available. I drove cars for many years that didn't even have seat belts installed. As a youngster I stood on the seat of our truck while the old man drove. I flew on Air Canada when the cigarette smoke was so thick I could barely see six rows in front of me!! Flew in the DC-3 all day, did maintenance on it all night and flew all the next day with seeing a bed. Hell, I even ran with sissors!!! Somehow I survived it all.....As I said, life in aviation wasn't the same as today for the reasons I have already given. You were expected to assess the risks and either do the flight or turn it down. If you turned it down for less than a valid reason, given the circumstances, then you became a dockhand!! I'm not going to keep explaining this over and over!!! I see guys that flew exactly like me then get hired as TC inspectors. Holy shit!! did they become pure in a hurry. I don't deny what I've done, it's part of my life. I'm also not ashamed of tying things to my plane or having things hanging out the door. That's how you find out what a plane is actually capable of doing!!

[Cat Driver]

Your resentment towards your elders is really evident by your use of insulting descriptions.

So let me educate you a little bit and show just how ignorant you really are.

By the way, you old timers should read Fate is the Hunter if by any chance you guys haven't. He touches on the topic of luck/fate quite often.

Ernest Gann was a personal friend of mine and I often visited him in his home in Friday Harbour, not to mention he was my favourite author of flying stories.

And to further educate you my guess is I have forgotten more about CRM and SOP's than you have ever learned.

I worked for Airbus Industries for two years and a lot of my time was spent in their training department in Toulouse.

So maybe you should wait until you get old enough to leave your mommies basement before you post about subjects you do not have any experience in on an adult forum.

[valleyboy]

I"m still flying and been there and done that with all what is being said here. Yup even hand spanked a DAK on more than one occasion and yup and "chinese" let downs after 2 hours of dead reckoning in IMC then find yourself on a map. That was then and now I still fly mostly to have fun and piss off the little asshole who wants my seat -- haha --

I agree the true bush pilots were back in the Whop May era and before speed rings were invented on radial engines. My generation (from the 60's and early 70's) was the beginning edge of technology and rules. One thing can be said that the new generation of pilot is the product of the mistakes and dumbing down as a result of previous generations of pilots. Is it any better? In some areas certainly, Technology has managed that, in the area of human factors, not so much. It seems that even this generation of pilots has it's share of issues in the flight deck. That small group is as bad as all the examples taught in CRM. I ask myself every day -- "why is that and how could it be" It's just not the old crusty grey haired guy who is likely to have the left seat attitude "my way or the highway" I have seen countless 20 something captains with the same flaw.

I know several of the posters here personally and flown with a few as well. Guys who have worked under conditions of the by gone days have a lot to offer. Experience still means something even though the young rookies don't think so. Sam -- remember Old Pappy's pisscan - we helped start that gold mine

[Grumbler]

Another first poster. I've lurked for years and considered this forum more for pilots but after reading this excellent thread about the Mighty 3 I thought I'd share.

Sometime around the early 80's the DC-3 was landing at Port Hardy in February, blew a tire and veered off the side of the runway with the flat tire ending up in the grass. We loaded up the Twin Otter with a tire and jack and flew up to the normal Hardy winter wx, torrential downpour. The guys that were based there had gone into town and cleaned the building supply out of three quarter plywood and laid a path in front of the flat. It was buried up to the axle in the muck, we had to dig down first in able to get the jack under the wing, got her lifted finally and changed the tire. This was around 0400. The plane had to be off the runway before 0700 as the PWA 737 sked came through at that time. It fell to me to taxi the a/c, I had never taxied before - anything. Fired up the engines, gave her hell, broke it loose out of the mud back onto the runway and then wobbled my way back to the terminal, first one way then the other way LOL, you should have seen it. Tail draggers probably aren't the best choice to learn how to taxi first time. With no instruction.
Rewarded ourselves for a job well done by cleaning out the liquor cabinet (hey we were wet and cold) then waited for the crew to fly home.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Moved to new thread

[Bacunayagua]

Your resentment towards your elders is really evident by your use of insulting descriptions.

So let me educate you a little bit and show just how ignorant you really are.

By the way, you old timers should read Fate is the Hunter if by any chance you guys haven't. He touches on the topic of luck/fate quite often.

Ernest Gann was a personal friend of mine and I often visited him in his home in Friday Harbour, not to mention he was my favourite author of flying stories.

And to further educate you my guess is I have forgotten more about CRM and SOP's than you have ever learned.

I worked for Airbus Industries for two years and a lot of my time was spent in their training department in Toulouse.

So maybe you should wait until you get old enough to leave your mommies basement before you post about subjects you do not have any experience in on an adult forum.

That's mighty rich from a guy that spends 90% of his time here shitting on the new generation. Sounds like you didn't learn much from from him.

Considering how much you brag about breaking SOPs and their uselessness, I would reconsider mentioning how much time you've spent at the Airbus training department. Makes you look even worse.

[NWONT]

Bacunayagua, have you ever pulled up to a stop sign and didn't come to a complete stop? Could have been a family in danger because of that!! Have you looked ahead and saw the light going to amber and pushed that pedal down a bit knowing the light would be red before you cleared the intersection? Same family could be there!! Ever left the bar thinking, "I think I might have had one too many sure hope I don't get stopped?" Same family could be on the road. Do you drive 10 or 12 kms over the limit regularly like the rest of us, just because everybody else drives this fast? Now just who the hell are you to sit on your throne and judge the rest of us? Like Valley Boy says "Things have changed and are changing and much of it was because of the way we did things and improvements were made to aircraft, nav aids, training, maintenance, duty times....everything!! Also TC let it be known that when an aircraft is operated illegally then the C of A is invalid, then the insurance companies made it be known , if your C of A is invalid....so is your insurance!!!!

[NWONT]

A Beaver is undeniably the best bush plane ever built but most of them you can rip the rear seats out of the lugs with your bare hands and the belts are attached to the seats so I say my passengers are better off swimming in the water without that pesky seat belted to their ass.....but I had to attend a day in court over it anyway...and I lost!! Everyone who has flown a Beaver has seen a rear seat passenger shift his weight and pull the seat out of the latches. I always made a point of making rear seat passengers reach back and open the door on the pre-flight because I knew they'd never find that handle when they're upside down in the water. TC and De Havilland said these things were just fine for many years but now most Beavers have been modified. I wrote a few memos on this when with the MNR. As far as flying overloaded goes, a Twin Otter is certified to fly at 12500 Lbs but we, at the MNR operated at 15500 lbs as long as were weren't hauling meat. Same airframe, but if you don't want to fly at that weight...then fly something else!!!

[Cat Driver]

Bacunayagua when you mature enough to be able to use some logic instead of thinking blind adherence to any SOP will make you an excellent pilot get back to me.

Considering how much you brag about breaking SOPs and their uselessness,

Where have I bragged about breaking SOP's ?

Of course my asking you is sort of useless considering you have never flown two crew and judging by your thought process it will be a bit longer before you do.

I would reconsider mentioning how much time you've spent at the Airbus training department. Makes you look even worse.

Do you realize how stupid that comment makes you look?

Do you really think Airbus would employ someone who is not highly competent?

Anyhow when you find someone who will hire you to fly as second in command let us know.

[Bacunayagua]

I'll do you one better, I found someone to hire me as DEC into a two crew aircraft. Something about leveraging the current employment market to my advantage.

[Cat Driver]

So you got a job by using the leverage of a pilot shortage instead of by your flying history and recommendations from previous employers?

Interesting.

Not to mention the industry should be very concerned when pilots use " leverage " due to a shortage of pilots instead of getting hired on merit.

Care to tell us what airplane they gave you this job on?

[samcole]

yes we did Valleyboy. thats the richest gold mine in the world im told. little did we know. got some good pics of that too. remember Fritz Blutner?

And about luck; you make your own luck.

[NWONT]

I still can't figure out why some people think SOP's are required to hand swing a DC-3 prop.........but that's AvCanada for ya!!!!

[samcole]

Ha...there were SOPs for swinging the prop, don't you remember?

Step back when she lights up.

I use the same SOPs on my J3, only I gotta be a little quicker.

[goingnowherefast]

I still can't figure out why some people think SOP's are required to hand swing a DC-3 prop.........but that's AvCanada for ya!!!!

That was Cat. He made a derogatory remark about the younger generation's use of SOPs. See post 3 in this thread.

[NWONT]

Many of the photos posted on bush flying are from a bygone era....and so are some of us. We enjoy looking at these photos because we have memories (some fond..some not) of a time in aviation history that has passed and ain't coming back. Pictures like this one remind us of a time when unexpected problems happened and there is no written procedure or no ground support equipment, then it was up to you to come up with a solution or you will sit there forever. Such as firing a can of gas into the intake and swinging that prop to get the girl to a maintenance base. None of us ever heard of SOP's or duty days or any of the rest of that bullshit. As I have mentioned, the planes and the technology were old and not all that dependable, but we used every ounce of energy we had to keep them flying. We tend to get a little cranky in our old age when some child, fresh out of college is sitting in his Moms basement playing with his Nintendo or Game Boy makes a comment, based on something he learned in class yesterday, about how we did things wrong 35 years ago. I know Cat Driver can be......opinionated....at times, and so can I, but if you knew his history and all that he has done and accomplished in his life I think you might show him a bit more respect. History goes by fast. Many times on AvCanada, I've seen someone post about a pile of twisted metal in the bush beside some northern airport and ask "What's this all about?" ....and I think, damn, has that crash already been forgotten!!!

[Bacunayagua]

So you got a job by using the leverage of a pilot shortage instead of by your flying history and recommendations from previous employers?

Interesting.

Not to mention the industry should be very concerned when pilots use " leverage " due to a shortage of pilots instead of getting hired on merit.

Care to tell us what airplane they gave you this job on?

Not at all, We both know just a few years ago you practically needed to have 5000 hours and a moon landing to even be considered for a job in a navajo (yes I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much).

No doubt some get hired on merit, others get hired on who they know. I think we can both agree on knowing people that we just can't help scratch our heads and wonder how they got into that position. What I meant by that statement is that given the current market, I and most other pilots with my hours, do not have to settle for a co-jo job anymore. Most of these two crewed machines are single pilot certified at the end of the day.

I know it's hard for you old timers to believe, but most of us do like you stories and even wonder what it must have been like flying during the "golden age". But you can't start flinging shit at us and expect us to just sit there and take it. The attitude of most old timers around here reminds me of this cartoon.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/ori ... 43/d7a.jpg

No one had said anything on your circle jerk of a thread initially until you had to pipe up with your " we didn't need anyone reading SOPs".
I think it's very clear you have some sort of chip on your shoulder about the new generation of pilots. Hell, maybe the other Airbus guys were scratching their heads and wondering how you got there.

[samcole]

Bacunayaqua it's sounds to me like you're the one with the chip on his shoulder. I started this post to bring back of few bygone memories and you seem to think it's an assault on the new generation. I think you should sit down and consider seriously what some of these veterans are saying. If you do that you just might have a career in aviation. I've been flying for 46 years and have come across many many types, but fortunately only a handful with a know it all attitude like yours, and they didn't go too far.
Case closed

[Cat Driver]

The sad truth is we are has been's living in the past samcole and these new guys think we know nothing compared to them.

I have been on this forum for decades and watched the industry change to what we see today.

I have finally come to the conclusion it is hopeless and I think I will just not bother trying give advice here.

If a poster decides to insult another poster the least one would expect is for them to at least have a background that supports their credibility.

[oldwrench]

San Cole your post about the C 47 being rescued from Wunnamin Lake brings back many memories from those days, I was the fellow pouring the fuel into the scoop and we got lucky to get the old girl started, but those days we did whatever it took and tried our best to keep the planes flying sometimes in very hash conditions and very little support equipment. Things have changed and stuff we did is now considered totally crazy and unacceptable I guess it is called progress.

[Cat Driver]

My first job flying transport category airplanes was with Austin Airways in 1967 and we flew scheduled airline flights out of Timmins Ontario seven days a week year round as far north as Cape Dorset.

Our main aircraft was the DC3 but we did a lot of the flying using the PBY for water operations in the far north.

It involved a lot of IFR flying using mostly the ADF for approaches although we sometimes flew south where there were full ILS facilities.

In the winter it could be brutal getting the airplane put away for the next days flying putting the engine covers on and attaching the Herman Nelson and then putting wing covers on to protect the upper surfaces from snow and frost.

In the morning we had to start about an hour before take off getting the Herman Nelson going and pre heating the engines.

Navigation was map reading when VFR and ADF and Astro Compass when we could get star or sun shots above the cloud cover.

Considering the environment we flew in it was amazing we did not have more accidents than we did.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention how difficult it was loading and unloading 45 gallon drums of fuel in the DC3 which sat on a tail wheel.

Also during the winter we used wheel skis for off airport operations.

When the Twin Otter was built we thought we had died and went to heaven it was so much more easy to operate not to mention the turbine engines were so much more dependable.

I started on the Twin Otter in 1974 on floats.

Back to hand spanking the DC3.

It was easier to start it using 25 feet of rope, a Ski Doo and two people, one to drive the Ski Doo and one to pull the prop through to get it over the first compression stroke so the Ski Doo could keep it turning.

But for sure hand spanking it always worked.

Speaking of hand spanking it.......

[samcole]

Cat the rope thing worked fine if the guy driving the skidoo didnt slow down and let the rope get slack. I was in Sandy one time and we used the MTC pickup, but just as the engine started the truck driver stopped and the prop sucked up the rope. at that point the prop became a winch and started to drag the truck toward the airplane. As it started to lift the back of the truck off the ground the rope broke. It took me two hours with a sharp knife trying to get the remains of the rope out from behind the hub. Valleyboy that was Franco. Now that was funny.

[samcole]

San Cole your post about the C 47 being rescued from Wunnamin Lake brings back many memories from those days, I was the fellow pouring the fuel into the scoop and we got lucky to get the old girl started, but those days we did whatever it took and tried our best to keep the planes flying sometimes in very hash conditions and very little support equipment. Things have changed and stuff we did is now considered totally crazy and unacceptable I guess it is called progress.