Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

[NewCommercialPilot]

...there is language that says this flying is WJ/Encore Pilots only and only them...

Well, yes and no. As the promoters of the WPPA and then ALPA liked to toot, the WJPA agreement was not an enforceable contract as compared to a CBA. I tend to agree. From my point of view as a disenterested viewer, the "Statutory Freeze" triggered when ALPA sent a notice to bargain to WJ management only applies to a pilot's individual terms of employment. This includes your salary, hours of work, bidding schedule etc. I do not believe it applies to the company's actions regarding Swoop. Indeed, if the WJPA agreement provisions regarding setting up of another company were enforceable, there would be no need for a blacklist.

[indieadventurer]

Re: Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

For a quick upgrade on a 70+ Tonne Jet.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but that's the simple answer to a simple question.

He's right because you will get a quick upgrade if this all goes down and that alone makes you realize or wonder how little highly experienced crews seem to be truly valued.

Would you see this with dr.'s, nurses, lawyers or engineers? A company starting a new company just to pay new employees less and cut benefits, to have them do the same thing? I honestly don't know but don't think so.

Those professions also don't use seniority to the extent that we do. Oh you're a 10,000+ hrs 737NG/A320 skipper and looking to switch companies? Well, bottom of the "list" for you for first year FO pay and you'll upgrade after pimply faced 22 yr old joe shmoe with 2000 hrs TT because he was here a ground school before you. Do you hear similar stories from dr.'s or lawyers..."yeah I was a partner or attending physician making 300k+ a year but I'm switching firms/hospitals so back to associate or resident to make ($whatever amount it is they start at) for me." Not from the MD's and JD's I know.

Which begs the question why? Is it that this job really isn't as difficult as we give ourselves credit for? That the mechanics and intricacies of operating an airliner have been trumped up by pilots and unions/associations? I honestly don't know and I'm wondering. Sure, there's a difference between commanding an airliner gracefully and being what we can all recognize as a good pilot vs not a good pilot, but at the end of the day this isn't a job that requires many years to become proficient at or nearly as much effort and work, unlike the professional disciplines mentioned above. If it was, the 10,000+ hrs skipper wouldn't be back to first year FO.

For the longest time there's been too many of us around to have the leverage to ask for treatment more inline with other disciplines and maybe the laws of supply/demand are to blame for all this? Guess we'll find out.

[altiplano]

Quick question, you say ACPA has no say, it is two ACPA pilots and an HR person for the interview, if the pilots have no say(input) why bother participating in the process. They must have some say.

AFAIK - it is who is available to do the interviews and the panel makeup changes based on that. Management pilots usually, sometimes retired pilots, sometimes flight ops office people.

The pilots there may be ACPA members, but they aren't representing ACPA. They are likely managers and represent the company. They ask and write what you say and your file is de-identified for scoring by a separate panel. They are trying to avoid days past when it was who you knew it were related to, not what you knew that got you hired.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Oh you're a 10,000+ hrs 737NG/A320 skipper and looking to switch companies? Well, bottom of the "list" for you for first year FO pay and you'll upgrade after pimply faced 22 yr old joe shmoe with 2000 hrs TT because he was here a ground school before you.

This is why someone would join Swoop. There are many experienced pilots around who are not at one of the majors and would want a left seat job rather than joining the back of the union line.

[Black_Tusk]

Or say someone who has been flying overseas with command time, and wants to come back to Canada without sitting at the bottom of AC or WJ's lists for 15 years. I can see it.

[garfield]

Anyone know already which bases are they gonna operate from? Are the conditions going to be like Rouge (lower pay but better schedule)?

cheers

[HansDietrich]

No problem...

There surely must be a way for ACPA to make it easier on guys like myself that one day would like to work for AC, something a lot more palpable than the current PML

.

Like what? Whatever you might believe, ACPA doesn't hold the strings and has no say...

AC is offering express guys guaranteed interviews and preferential treatment in the hiring process from what I understand. What more do you expect?

Sorry Altiplano, I think you’re feeding the troll! I have a hard time believing that Hans is not trolling but if he is for real, he can’t leave Jazz fast enough for me. I believe the only thing that would make Hans happy is a DEC on the 777, without going through the interview process, after all he is a Dash 8 FO flying the flag, you know.
As a PML 1.0 pilot, I have never even remotely thought I should’ve been handed anything other than what I signed up for, a few things changed after the fact and I rolled with it ie; psych eval. Anyhow PML 2.0 is not what was expected and even though no promises were made, it’s not good enough for the “me” generation.
As for Swoop, this is a close to scabbing as you can get without being on strike, there is language that says this flying is WJ/Encore Pilots only and only them, yet WJ management is moving forward with it at lightning speed, only reason for that is it’s hard to get that horse back in the barn once it’s out and they know it

Quick question, you say ACPA has no say, it is two ACPA pilots and an HR person for the interview, if the pilots have no say(input) why bother participating in the process. They must have some say.

Give it a rest dude. Everyone is a troll to you. I have no intention of going to Swoop. There are better options out there, like Sky Regional that will give me the experience to get on with Emirates or Etihad, if I make it through their selection process. As far as the rest is concerned (PML and such) I don't really care anymore. I did care for a bit. Not anymore... not gonna happen... not interested.

[altiplano]

One should never chase metal, but rather look at the base and lifestyle. It's the most important thing. If I'm to be lucky enough to get on-board with Jazz, aircraft type would be the least of my concern. Sure the 100s / 300s are a bit older, but they're maintained well and are solid airplanes. I would have no problem flying one.

That was what? 413 days ago?

What changed? Less than a year on the line at a company you would be "lucky enough to get on" with and your jaded already? Did Jazz mistreat you?

[HansDietrich]

One should never chase metal, but rather look at the base and lifestyle. It's the most important thing. If I'm to be lucky enough to get on-board with Jazz, aircraft type would be the least of my concern. Sure the 100s / 300s are a bit older, but they're maintained well and are solid airplanes. I would have no problem flying one.

That was what? 413 days ago?

What changed? Less than a year on the line at a company you would be "lucky enough to get on" with and your jaded already? Did Jazz mistreat you?

It did and that's why I'm so bitter. I can't go further into it. I do bitch a lot here, but I'm not going to talk about personal issues that I have with the company. That's nobody's business but my own.

[Victory]

It's what makes this site such a great resource. If you were mistreated by Jazz I'm sure there are many that you could help by letting them know what happened so they can learn from other's experiences and avoid certain pitfalls in this industry.

[Raincoast]

I think this might be HD's complaint:

https://youtu.be/nBrCcYr0y5M

[JohnnyHotRocks]

With everyone talking about how not great the working conditions in terms of schedules at places like Jazz and georgian and others can be if you made a "great enough" salary or wage as a flight instructor and be home every night would you do that instead?

Thanks

Why would you want to be home every night? Isn't that part of the aviation adventure? Seeing the world?

Some of us had a chance to get laid, at least once... and now have kids...

Better not go to the middle east then!

[jjj]

One should never chase metal, but rather look at the base and lifestyle. It's the most important thing. If I'm to be lucky enough to get on-board with Jazz, aircraft type would be the least of my concern. Sure the 100s / 300s are a bit older, but they're maintained well and are solid airplanes. I would have no problem flying one.

That was what? 413 days ago?

What changed? Less than a year on the line at a company you would be "lucky enough to get on" with and your jaded already? Did Jazz mistreat you?

It did and that's why I'm so bitter. I can't go further into it. I do bitch a lot here, but I'm not going to talk about personal issues that I have with the company. That's nobody's business but my own.

20 bucks says it’s just another case of a brat that hasn’t worked a hard job in his life. Please queue the world’s smallest violin.

I see a little too much of this these days when a 20 something is flying a Q with less than 5 years in the biz and feels so hard done by. Makes me want to choke on my coffee.

[pacman007]

https://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/lawsuit-al ... -1.3773740

Guys think long and hard how much you are worth... In case of a accident or even a incedent at swoop don't think Westjet will come to your rescue. They have made it clear they think you are only worth 90000 to be responsible for 180 ish lifes...

[JBI]

...there is language that says this flying is WJ/Encore Pilots only and only them...

Well, yes and no. As the promoters of the WPPA and then ALPA liked to toot, the WJPA agreement was not an enforceable contract as compared to a CBA. I tend to agree. From my point of view as a disenterested viewer, the "Statutory Freeze" triggered when ALPA sent a notice to bargain to WJ management only applies to a pilot's individual terms of employment. This includes your salary, hours of work, bidding schedule etc. I do not believe it applies to the company's actions regarding Swoop. Indeed, if the WJPA agreement provisions regarding setting up of another company were enforceable, there would be no need for a blacklist.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you NCP, but to clarify - and Bede has said it a number of times - prior to certification, the agreement with the company and the pilots/WJPA was 'enforceable'. However, it was enforceable in the sense that as an individual employee, if the company unilaterally changed a term in the agreement, generally speaking, your only option would be to file a wrongful dismissal claim alleging that the change in the contract resulted in constructive dismissal. Sure, if a large portion of pilots decided to file such a claim or perhaps apply for a class action, that would be something that the company would have to consider. However, if you were the only one to complain, it would be you and your lawyer filing a lawsuit against the company. Enforceable - you bet, but being certified does offer the pilots, as a group, more avenues for enforcing a contract beyond just a singular wrongful dismissal lawsuit.

As for what gets frozen - again, need to clarify. The entire contract is frozen and becomes a defacto CBA for now. The company cannot breach a term of that contract unilaterally without getting a spanking from the CIRB. However, I'll be the first to admit that there are interpretation issues in the contract. For example - in the contract, it is listed that the company will consult with the WJPA prior to doing X, Y or Z. Well, the WJPA no longer exists, so does the company have to consult with the pilots, ALPA or nobody? Tough to say.

The spirit of the contract is very much that the company needs to consult and negotiate with the pilots. Regardless, with the Swoop hiring, the company can play hardball now, but for me at least, the company opening up the Swoop hiring to outside pilots even when both the WJ and Encore (Who are not even in negotiations yet) contracts specifically require all flying done by an affiliated or subsidiary company be done by pilots on the WestJet Pilot Department List seems a pretty substantial unnecessary bad faith move.

[JBI]

https://saskatoon.ctvnews.ca/lawsuit-al ... -1.3773740

Guys think long and hard how much you are worth... In case of a accident or even a incedent at swoop don't think Westjet will come to your rescue. They have made it clear they think you are only worth 90000 to be responsible for 180 ish lifes...

Sorry, but this just simply isn't correct. As an employee of a company as long as you are acting in the course and scope of your employment you are, generally speaking, covered under their insurance policy. Airlines in Canada are regulated to have a specific minimum amount of coverage per aircraft and per seat. Unless you are acting in a manner that is essentially criminal, you are covered. Again, generally speaking, this is regardless of whether you are flying for Swoop, WestJet, Flair or Westwind.

[pacman007]

JBI the article states they are going after negligence.. in this case you probably are not covered..if the wing falls off maybe...

[NewCommercialPilot]

Hi JBI, can you supply some sources that back up your assertion? I've been busy dealing with other pursuits and only briefly looked into this issue, but I don't see anywhere suggesting that the entire contents of an agreement that was negotiated by a body that did not represent the pilots (in the labour law sense of the word) suddenly becomes a contract. I never authorized the WJPA to negotiate my work terms for me. I agreed to work under the conditions that the company imposed on me by way of some terms and conditions brought down in May 2015. That's it. Any other items relating to what the company can and cannot do with regard to another airline seem to be unchallengeable by any collective group. Perhaps an individual, the ALPA MEC chair would be a great person to do so, could sue for enforcement of his individual work terms. Have at 'er!!!!!

I see information that leads me to believe that individual terms of employment are applicable, but nothing more. In any event, how would ALPA conduct this vote, or begin a negotiation to staff the airline etc? I don't see it happening. If it was possible, they would have done it, I think.

[NewCommercialPilot]

Is it possible the company can claim that the force majeure clause of the agreement could be a defence by the company to a breach action? Certification was an action outside the cobtrol of both WJ and the WJPA, therefore, the WPDL isn't even a thing anymore, given that the bargaining unit now applies only to mainline pilots. I don't see how the company, prior to the agreement of CBAs at both WJ and WJE can be forced to staff Swoop with WJ/WJE pilots when they don't even know what the CBAs will look like. Simply not reasonable.

The cart is out the barn door with the horse and on it sits a whole bunch of non WJ/WJE pilots. This was inevitable and foreseeable, the moment the pilots certified. Many of us saw this coming. Now, many of us don't give a hoot what happens to junior pilots. Zero fox given. The I told you so's are making the rounds. Tragic, truly tragic.

Back to digging.

Monsieur l'AileNoix

[NewCommercialPilot]

Additionally, the WPDL is a pseudo-seniority list. It is not organized by ALPA's constitutionally mandated policy of date of hire (at THE company, not A company), therefore, in ALPA land the WPDL is a thing of fiction. They would not dare recognize it at this time. First of all, seniority provisions have not been negotiated, and secondly, date of hire, date of hire, date of hire.

[JBI]

JBI the article states they are going after negligence.. in this case you probably are not covered..if the wing falls off maybe...

I generally dislike playing the lawyer card, but in this case, respectfully, I'm afraid you're still incorrect. Almost all lawsuits arising from aircraft accidents or incidents (I was involved in 30 or so during my time as a lawyer) will be based in negligence. The pilots will likely get named individually in the lawsuit in addition to the airline - that's pretty common. However, it will almost certainly be that the airline's insurer covers them and pays not only for any damages assessed but also the legal fees. On rare occasions in such an accident where there may be a conflict of interest, the airline's insurer will also pay for separate counsel for additional parties (i.e. pilots) covered under their insurance contract.

So, while I have many concerns about Swoop with respect to relations between WestJet pilots and management, liability insurance coverage is not one of them.

[JBI]

Hi JBI, can you supply some sources that back up your assertion? I've been busy dealing with other pursuits and only briefly looked into this issue, but I don't see anywhere suggesting that the entire contents of an agreement that was negotiated by a body that did not represent the pilots (in the labour law sense of the word) suddenly becomes a contract. I never authorized the WJPA to negotiate my work terms for me. I agreed to work under the conditions that the company imposed on me by way of some terms and conditions brought down in May 2015. That's it. Any other items relating to what the company can and cannot do with regard to another airline seem to be unchallengeable by any collective group. Perhaps an individual, the ALPA MEC chair would be a great person to do so, could sue for enforcement of his individual work terms. Have at 'er!!!!!

I see information that leads me to believe that individual terms of employment are applicable, but nothing more. In any event, how would ALPA conduct this vote, or begin a negotiation to staff the airline etc? I don't see it happening. If it was possible, they would have done it, I think.

Immediately after certification its Section 24(4) of the Canada Labour Code

Terms or conditions of employment not to be changed

(4) Where an application by a trade union for certification as the bargaining agent for a unit is made in accordance with this section, no employer of employees in the unit shall, after notification that the application has been made, alter the rates of pay, any other term or condition of employment or any right or privilege of such employees until

(a) the application has been withdrawn by the trade union or dismissed by the Board, or

(b) thirty days have elapsed after the day on which the Board certifies the trade union as the bargaining agent for the unit,

except pursuant to a collective agreement or with the consent of the Board.

Once the Notice to Bargain has been submitted (which it has for both WJ and Encore) Section 50(b) of the Canada Labour Code Applies:

Duty to bargain and not to change terms and conditions

50 Where notice to bargain collectively has been given under this Part,

(b) the employer shall not alter the rates of pay or any other term or condition of employment or any right or privilege of the employees in the bargaining unit, or any right or privilege of the bargaining agent, until the requirements of paragraphs 89(1)(a) to (d) have been met, unless the bargaining agent consents to the alteration of such a term or condition, or such a right or privilege.

[Transonic]

This was inevitable and foreseeable, the moment the pilots certified. Many of us saw this coming. Now, many of us don't give a hoot what happens to junior pilots. Zero fox given. The I told you so's are making the rounds. Tragic, truly tragic.

I posted this in your other thread.

As of Dec 7th 2017, Gregg did NOT agree with your statement that this was inevitable.

“…..we don’t have a scope clause but we always acted [as if we do]. And this is where airlines get into trouble, when they do things that they really shouldn’t. But we’ve always acted as if we had a scope clause. And so we’ve been careful not to violate the virtual scope clause that is in our agreement."

This was a statement made by Gregg to ease investors of the worries of labour disruption concurrent to the execution of Swoop and PASCO CPA. Remember, Investors are nervous of the new strategy and cite "execution risk" as a primary concern.

I say again, "And this is where airlines get into trouble, when they do things that they really shouldn’t."

Wise words from our CEO.

Link: http://services.choruscall.ca/links/wes ... 6iday.html (Q&A portion 2hr39 50 secs mins)

[Victory]

Wow no scope clause.

[Bede]

JBI the article states they are going after negligence.. in this case you probably are not covered..if the wing falls off maybe...

Pacman, this case will answer any questions that you have re employee negligence.
https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/doc/2 ... pletePos=1