Let's all apply at Swoop!

[JohnnyHotRocks]

"Air Canada has 420 unfilled seats"....
At $45,000 per year for the first four!
THIS is also part of the problem.
THIS is also why someone would go to Swoop.

[RVR6000]

At $45,000 per year for the first four!

Not true, not that I’m proud of it but here’s the 4 year scale.

$53,000
$58,000
$66,000
$74,000


Hoping year 3,4 gets ditched in the next reopener and we go back to a 2 year flat pay like we had before.

That being said we have ppl in year 3, 4 making over $170k because of all the captain upgrades.

[tbaylx]

Fact is, everyone with a pulse and an ATPL today can get a pretty fucking decent job... and be on the way to a much better job and a rewarding career.

Basically every 705 carrier in the country pays better, certainly every 737 job in Canada pays better...

Do your want to take a big shit on the future you? Do you want to submarine your future earnings?

Because that's what you do if you take a job like this... You depress the wages of all those jobs you are thinking that you are going to stepping stone to through this seat.

Air Canada bid today has 420 unfilled seats. WestJet is short. Jazz is short. Sunwing, Cargojet, Morningstar, Transat, Sky... all the commuter turboprop operators... everyone needs pilots, the world is short pilots.

By selling yourself short today for a shit wage, even if you think "it's better than what I make today" you are fucking yourself in the future and everyone else trying to progress this position today because you force everyone else's rate down. You know, the rate that you want to be yours one day.

Even the ULCC 737 Pilots in the US make more than Air Canada WIDEBODY Pilots make, and 40-50% more than Mainline AC/WJ 737/320 pilots make.

Don't let them USE you.

CHEAP FARES, NOT CHEAP PILOTS.

I keep hearing how Swoop is the lowest paying 737 job in the industry but the numbers seem to indicate differently.

Maybe I'm missing something but their hourly rate is the same as Sunwing but based on 900 hours/year min guarantee vs Sunwing's 1000. However Swoop pays a $12500 bonus on first two years, also ESPP and profit share, each worth about 10%. So by my calculations that comes out close to 125K for a year 1 Captain which is higher than Sunwing (not factoring in deployment pay as that's optional), flair and competitive with Canadian North etc. Sure they're capped at 3 steps for now but they're sure to add pay steps as the operation matures. It could be better certainly, but it's not uncompetitive with other 737 operators, and better than some.

Is this bottom feeding wages thing based on anything or just simply a way for pilot's to advance the agenda of a common seniority list?

[montado]

Funny how when my colleagues are able to further themselves at my expense, and the B scale is on my back, I am entitled and a complaining generation who does not deserve better. Then they would say I am a scab to apply for a job at swoop that pays twice my salary.

Why not you do you and I do me? Obviously all the whiners here about swoop have great jobs they are worried about. But we don't deserve a job like the one they have, in fact some of these guys would have a contract cut our pay 30 percent if it meant they could have more of the pie for themselves.

So your advice is really for people to sit back and watch others progress their careers because you have some moral issues with swoop. You are all just as much a scab as anyone taking a swoop job if at any point in your career you signed a bond, voted a contract that favor your pay and benefits over a new hire, or did anything that put you ahead at the expense of your peers. I recon there's a whole pile of scabs at mainline and westjet. Please identify yourself as you shit on all the swoop applicants and tell me how now this is different.

The comments here are as if you are all mother Theresa in the ethics department.

[flyinhigh]

However Swoop pays a $12500 bonus on first two years, also ESPP and profit share, each worth about 10%. So by my calculations that comes out close to 125K for a year

This only just came out, about 2-3 weeks after the original listing was posted. I wonder if thats because they are not getting anyone of quality to apply as a skipper. I'm going to say that is exactly it, as well I am sure that Bond....er bonus they say will be written as a bond.

[tbaylx]

That could be, but then the argument should reflect actual current terms and conditions vs what people thought they were when they first got published. Facts seem to be it's certainly not the lowest paying 705 job and seems competitive with other 737 operators in the country.

The discussion on common employer etc is another issue.

[RVR6000]

Funny how when my colleagues are able to further themselves at my expense, and the B scale is on my back, I am entitled and a complaining generation who does not deserve better. Then they would say I am a scab to apply for a job at swoop that pays twice my salary.

Take the swoop job, but 5 Years from now when the pay gap between AC/Westjet/Transat and the US carriers is even bigger then don’t bitch about how crappy the industry is in Canada. Or how the unions are useless and incapable of any gains.

Westjet 737 ops will only shrink with swoop growing for the forceable future, high paying jobs being replaced.

[schnitzel2k3]

How bout no flat pay so guys can earn a proper wage without looking for direct captain spots. 53000 is a ridiculous wage to start at a legacy carrier. Pretty sure Swoop is the same IIRC.

If the next 'flat pay' that's negotiated is under 6 figures, shit jobs with DEC spots unfortunately will still seem attractive. The hard truth. I think I said in another post that it starts with the northern carriers paying up or packing up, but truthfully it starts with the duopoly here, AND all the WS and AC pilots who ACCEPTED those WAWCONs are the problem with this industry. How about that?

The worst advice I ever received was from an flag captain that said, get a line of credit, go into debt for 4 years until you are off flat pay, then it get's better. Needless to say I never went through with the application.

My reasoning still stands. Not everyone is embedded into Avcanada. Did you notice Swoop did not advertise this posting on here?

Wonder why?

S.

[RVR6000]

How bout no flat pay so guys can earn a proper wage without looking for direct captain spots. 53000 is a ridiculous wage to start at a legacy carrier. Pretty sure Swoop is the same IIRC.

With the growing trends of ULCC it’s unlikely you’ll see six figure starting salary. AC simply throws WJ, Transat and Sunwing waccon at the table then the union negotiates up from there. Why do we have 2 pilots doing Yyz-ath, because Transat does it that way. 2 pilots doing yvr-gatwick because Westjet does it. Both those routes use to have 3 pilots at mainline.

I still find it hard to believe why some can’t look past 2-3 years. You’re getting into a 20-35 year long career.

[RVR6000]

.

[schnitzel2k3]

How bout no flat pay so guys can earn a proper wage without looking for direct captain spots. 53000 is a ridiculous wage to start at a legacy carrier. Pretty sure Swoop is the same IIRC.

With the growing trends of ULCC it’s unlikely you’ll see six figure starting salary. AC simply throws WJ, Transat and Sunwing waccon at the table then the union negotiates up from there. Why do we have 2 pilots doing Yyz-ath, because Transat does it that way. 2 pilots doing yvr-gatwick because Westjet does it. Both those routes use to have 3 pilots at mainline.

I still find it hard to believe why some can’t look past 2-3 years. You’re getting into a 20-35 year long career.

Because some people have families and mortgages. Sorry, I know you are trying to make a good point.

For me, I am a single income earner - I can't take a 70k hit to go to mainline, regardless of the fatanstic long term. It may be short sighted as I've been told, but it's the reality and I feel like I am not alone. AC and WS do not properly compensate pilots for their experience.

I think it was altiplano who has a great posting about this and how off base AC and WS are.

People accepting and promoting that legacy wage in the justification of a career, push others into a position where carriers can Swoop in and 'seem' attractive.

S.

[altiplano]

How bout no flat pay so guys can earn a proper wage without looking for direct captain spots. 53000 is a ridiculous wage to start at a legacy carrier.

Every Pilot at AC is against the 4 year new hire scale except a few in the leadership who are being slowly pushed out/voted out.

Fact is that the large majority of AC Pilots voted NO on the deal with 4 year flat pay and then the Harper Conservatives shoved it down our throats.

They took the pension too. And created B-scale.

So we're working on it:
We've got a new pension for new hires with MEPP/TBP.
We've got the B-scale getting better with YOS on your upgrade instead of starting over.
Among other things...

It's at the sacrifice of other conditions, and it's bullshit, stolen from us, stolen from those still to come by corporate/government collusion...

Why? Because the WAWCON is being eroded by the Swoops of this business. We are being pressured to expect lower pay, lower benefits, transfer flying to B-scale.

You want to point a finger at us selling you out? Try again... We're trying to hold the line on WAWCON, for us today and those that follow, maybe benefits that YOU might want...

The vacuum hurts us all. So try looking in the mirror if you're part of that vacuum.

Anyway, worked with a guy the other day who's going Captain on the 320... Not even 2 years on the property. Not saying it's right that those that don't go Captain get hosed, but at least there's a $180K remedy for some if they're inclined...

[Legacy]

Funny how when my colleagues are able to further themselves at my expense, and the B scale is on my back, I am entitled and a complaining generation who does not deserve better. Then they would say I am a scab to apply for a job at swoop that pays twice my salary.

Why not you do you and I do me? Obviously all the whiners here about swoop have great jobs they are worried about. But we don't deserve a job like the one they have, in fact some of these guys would have a contract cut our pay 30 percent if it meant they could have more of the pie for themselves.

So your advice is really for people to sit back and watch others progress their careers because you have some moral issues with swoop. You are all just as much a scab as anyone taking a swoop job if at any point in your career you signed a bond, voted a contract that favor your pay and benefits over a new hire, or did anything that put you ahead at the expense of your peers. I recon there's a whole pile of scabs at mainline and westjet. Please identify yourself as you shit on all the swoop applicants and tell me how now this is different.

The comments here are as if you are all mother Theresa in the ethics department.

WHY is there ALWAYS people like this. Time and time again they just DON'T get it. Just pisses me off when the pilots at mainline WJ are trying to better the career progression for every pilot at the company and people like you come in and completely destroy all the work they are doing. Pure selfishness. You are thinking about yourself completely. How about you think about maybe your kids that might want to get into this industry. Look what pathway you set forth for them. I'll thank you for them right now (sarcasm). You just don't freaking get it!! Try being in the industry for more than 5 or 10 years and maybe you might. Don't you see what the CEO is trying to do and you are totally helping him. Thanks a f**kig lot for your destructive attitude. Fine. Go to swoop. Hope you get completely blackballed for being so selfish.

[AvifiskAlly]

Funny how when my colleagues are able to further themselves at my expense, and the B scale is on my back, I am entitled and a complaining generation who does not deserve better. Then they would say I am a scab to apply for a job at swoop that pays twice my salary.

Why not you do you and I do me? Obviously all the whiners here about swoop have great jobs they are worried about. But we don't deserve a job like the one they have, in fact some of these guys would have a contract cut our pay 30 percent if it meant they could have more of the pie for themselves.

So your advice is really for people to sit back and watch others progress their careers because you have some moral issues with swoop. You are all just as much a scab as anyone taking a swoop job if at any point in your career you signed a bond, voted a contract that favor your pay and benefits over a new hire, or did anything that put you ahead at the expense of your peers. I recon there's a whole pile of scabs at mainline and westjet. Please identify yourself as you shit on all the swoop applicants and tell me how now this is different.

The comments here are as if you are all mother Theresa in the ethics department.

WHY is there ALWAYS people like this. Time and time again they just DON'T get it. Just pisses me off when the pilots at mainline WJ are trying to better the career progression for every pilot at the company and people like you come in and completely destroy all the work they are doing. Pure selfishness. You are thinking about yourself completely. How about you think about maybe your kids that might want to get into this industry. Look what pathway you set forth for them. I'll thank you for them right now (sarcasm). You just don't freaking get it!! Try being in the industry for more than 5 or 10 years and maybe you might. Don't you see what the CEO is trying to do and you are totally helping him. Thanks a f**kig lot for your destructive attitude. Fine. Go to swoop. Hope you get completely blackballed for being so selfish.

I think it is your attitude that might be the issue. Why is Swoop any different than what WJ did to AC pilots way back in the day, what Jazz pilots did to AC pilots with the transfer of the CRJ, what Encore pilots did to Jazz when they started at lower wages, what GGN pilots did to Jazz when the CRJ's went to them, what Pasco is doing to Encore pilots. GET A LIFE, airlines are a business and it is competitive if you don't want to be part of them great stay away BUT how can you blame your brothers for taking a job that they feel is right for them. I don't think there are any righteous employers out there, they have all maneuvered the labour market to cut out their piece of the industry pie. Like Swoop go there - don't fine don't go there but don't shame us all by pretending this is any different than any last move by any of our employers.

[montado]

WHY is there ALWAYS people like this. Time and time again they just DON'T get it. Just pisses me off when the pilots at mainline WJ are trying to better the career progression for every pilot at the company and people like you come in and completely destroy all the work they are doing. Pure selfishness. You are thinking about yourself completely. How about you think about maybe your kids that might want to get into this industry. Look what pathway you set forth for them. I'll thank you for them right now (sarcasm). You just don't freaking get it!! Try being in the industry for more than 5 or 10 years and maybe you might. Don't you see what the CEO is trying to do and you are totally helping him. Thanks a f**kig lot for your destructive attitude. Fine. Go to swoop. Hope you get completely blackballed for being so selfish.

Legacy, Lets get real. The pilot group at swoop is not in control of the conditions nationally in Canada. I am told this all the time, that I just dont get it. I dont get what? That I had no VOTE for the contract that I work under? That I am represented by those who have been in this MUCH longer than I have, and many only have their interests in mind. I am Selfish? Wait what about the pilots at Westjet. Did they "under cut" the industry? Think about my kids? Did the boomers think about their kids?

Comparison is the thief of joy. Maybe ya'll have it wrong being so concerned about comparing salaries. You know what, I forgive all the boomers for any miss steps along the way to better this career for everyone. So please forgive me if I end up at swoop. Remember there was a day when you were in your 20's trying to find your feet, trying to pay your rent. I'm pretty proud that on the salary I make today I still manage to max out my kids RESP contributions. SO you think I dont give a rats ass about the future generations, I have already put away more money for my kids future than was put away for me. I hope you find some peace with yourself, because thinking swoop pilots are the problem within the industry you work is quite ridiculous.

[schnitzel2k3]

I am fortunately not apart of that vacuum. Waiting to see what happens with AC - BUT I am expressing my understanding as to why pilots could mistake Swoop as an opportunity to 'move up'.

I am merely pointing fingers at the people who think it's a 'good' move to get on flat pay without considering how it affects the industry and why doing that promotes companies like Swoop. Swoop is merely a consequence of the duo and mid 70's payrates.

S.

[AvifiskAlly]

WHY is there ALWAYS people like this. Time and time again they just DON'T get it. Just pisses me off when the pilots at mainline WJ are trying to better the career progression for every pilot at the company and people like you come in and completely destroy all the work they are doing. Pure selfishness. You are thinking about yourself completely. How about you think about maybe your kids that might want to get into this industry. Look what pathway you set forth for them. I'll thank you for them right now (sarcasm). You just don't freaking get it!! Try being in the industry for more than 5 or 10 years and maybe you might. Don't you see what the CEO is trying to do and you are totally helping him. Thanks a f**kig lot for your destructive attitude. Fine. Go to swoop. Hope you get completely blackballed for being so selfish.

Legacy, Lets get real. The pilot group a swoop is not in control of the conditions nationally in Canada. I am told this all the time, that I just dont get it. I dont get what? That I had no VOTE for the contract that I work under? That I am represented by those who have been in this MUCH longer than I have, and many only have their interests in mind. I am Selfish? Wait what about the pilots at Westjet. Did they "under cut" the industry? Think about my kids? Did the boomers think about their kids?

Comparison is the thief of joy. Maybe ya'll have it wrong being so concerned about comparing salaries. You know what, I forgive all the boomers for any miss steps along the way to better this career for everyone. So please forgive me if I end up at swoop. Remember there was a day when you were in your 20's trying to find your feet, trying to pay your rent. I'm pretty proud that on the salary I make today I still manage to max out my kids RESP contributions. SO you think I dont give a rats ass about the future generations, I have already put away more money for my kids future than was put away for me. I hope you find some peace with yourself, because thinking swoop pilots are the problem within the industry you work is quite ridiculous.

[Legacy]

Well if you think the pilots at WJ are "in it for themselves" maybe the MEC should give up trying to get the starting salaries at swoop increased. If they do succeed, hopefully you will say thank you to them. I still don't think you get it. It's a very very simple concept. Pilots don't apply, WJ will have to sweeten the pot. We've had to do it before, it will be done again. Which part is of that is incomprehensible?

[Blue Side Up]

Funny how when my colleagues are able to further themselves at my expense, and the B scale is on my back, I am entitled and a complaining generation who does not deserve better. Then they would say I am a scab to apply for a job at swoop that pays twice my salary.

Why not you do you and I do me? Obviously all the whiners here about swoop have great jobs they are worried about. But we don't deserve a job like the one they have, in fact some of these guys would have a contract cut our pay 30 percent if it meant they could have more of the pie for themselves.

So your advice is really for people to sit back and watch others progress their careers because you have some moral issues with swoop. You are all just as much a scab as anyone taking a swoop job if at any point in your career you signed a bond, voted a contract that favor your pay and benefits over a new hire, or did anything that put you ahead at the expense of your peers. I recon there's a whole pile of scabs at mainline and westjet. Please identify yourself as you shit on all the swoop applicants and tell me how now this is different.

The comments here are as if you are all mother Theresa in the ethics department.

Hey man, I totally see where you're coming from. I was at Jazz when the lower working conditions were voted in. I always thought of Jazz as the best regional in Canada and it showed with the amount of guys who made 30+ year careers there. How do you think ALPA justified the lower wages? By comparing the WAWCON at Jazz to places like Georgian and Encore. There favourite thing to say was "that we need to remain competitive" to keep the AC contracts. Unfortunately thats the way this industry works... Once a group of pilots accept a WAWCON that is below industry standard it brings everyone down to that level. If it wasn't for Georgian and Encore lowering the bar, Jazz would still have a DB pension, great starting pay and much better working conditions than they do now for anyone who's on the B scale.

By accepting a job at Swoop or Flair or any one of these competing ULCC you're lowering the bar for all pilots in Canada. What do you think the company will say when its time for negotiations? They'll look at all the pilots flying 737s for Swoop, Jetlines and anyone else and say "Hey, look...Those guys are flying the same airplanes for XX% less than our pilots" and the race to the bottom will continue.

We're at a time where pilots at most carriers in the world are getting pay raises and here we are in Canada lowering the bar even further. We should ALL be pushing for pay raises right now. All anyone has to do is not apply to Swoop and they'll be forced to do something about it. I can't believe we're allowing companies to make profits off the backs of pilots at a time when our profession is experiencing a shortage of qualified individuals.

The race to the bottom needs to stop! Management in the US is approaching the pilots and giving them 30-40% raises and he we are accepting jobs that pay 30-40% less.... Get your shit together guys. If you do end up at AC or WJ and the pay there has deteriorated... you have no one to blame but yourself and management.

[AvifiskAlly]

Funny how when my colleagues are able to further themselves at my expense, and the B scale is on my back, I am entitled and a complaining generation who does not deserve better. Then they would say I am a scab to apply for a job at swoop that pays twice my salary.

Why not you do you and I do me? Obviously all the whiners here about swoop have great jobs they are worried about. But we don't deserve a job like the one they have, in fact some of these guys would have a contract cut our pay 30 percent if it meant they could have more of the pie for themselves.

So your advice is really for people to sit back and watch others progress their careers because you have some moral issues with swoop. You are all just as much a scab as anyone taking a swoop job if at any point in your career you signed a bond, voted a contract that favor your pay and benefits over a new hire, or did anything that put you ahead at the expense of your peers. I recon there's a whole pile of scabs at mainline and westjet. Please identify yourself as you shit on all the swoop applicants and tell me how now this is different.

The comments here are as if you are all mother Theresa in the ethics department.

Hey man, I totally see where you're coming from. I was at Jazz when the lower working conditions were voted in. I always thought of Jazz as the best regional in Canada and it showed with the amount of guys who made 30+ year careers there. How do you think ALPA justified the lower wages? By comparing the WAWCON at Jazz to places like Georgian and Encore. There favourite thing to say was "that we need to remain competitive" to keep the AC contracts. Unfortunately thats the way this industry works... Once a group of pilots accept a WAWCON that is below industry standard it brings everyone down to that level. If it wasn't for Georgian and Encore lowering the bar, Jazz would still have a DB pension, great starting pay and much better working conditions than they do now for anyone who's on the B scale.

By accepting a job at Swoop or Flair or any one of these competing ULCC you're lowering the bar for all pilots in Canada. What do you think the company will say when its time for negotiations? They'll look at all the pilots flying 737s for Swoop, Jetlines and anyone else and say "Hey, look...Those guys are flying the same airplanes for XX% less than our pilots" and the race to the bottom will continue.

We're at a time where pilots at most carriers in the world are getting pay raises and here we are in Canada lowering the bar even further. We should ALL be pushing for pay raises right now. All anyone has to do is not apply to Swoop and they'll be forced to do something about it. I can't believe we're allowing companies to make profits off the backs of pilots at a time when our profession is experiencing a shortage of qualified individuals.

The race to the bottom needs to stop! Management in the US is approaching the pilots and giving them 30-40% raises and he we are accepting jobs that pay 30-40% less.... Get your shit together guys. If you do end up at AC or WJ and the pay there has deteriorated... you have no one to blame but yourself and management.

Tthat is a very scary and simplistic view. If Jazz did not accept lower wages that were competitive US regionals would be doing the GGN work, GGN would be doing a bunch of the Jazz domestic work, CMA a bunch more, PAL even more and SKY would have slowly grown into a much larger airline.

The same will happen to Swoop, if they can't compete in the ULCC market Flair will, Jet Lines will and some other new guy will. If yiou like the offer - go, if you dont accept the fact that others may view this for what it is - A BETTER JOB THAN THEY HAVE NOW

[Blue Side Up]

You're missing the point man. Your short-sightedness is scary.. Ya you might have a better job NOW for a few years... what about afterwards? Not everyone is going to get a job in Asia.

[DropTanks]

We're just pissing in the wind trying to teach these wannabe Swoopsters. The fact is they're selfish. They want to jump the queue and take work away from WJ and Encore pilots that have scratched and clawed to get their positions on the seniority list. This is tantamount to crossing a picket line and doing struck work because it's "good for MY family". GFY. They just don't get it and they don't want to get it so we're wasting our time trying to teach them. Don't think for a second that it'll be as simple as walking into a DEC spot and WJ ALPA will just lay down and die. This will be fought as far as the law will take it. Oh right! THE LAW that protects a unionized labour group from exactly this kind of bullshit. Good luck in your new DEC positions because you might just find yourself right seat on a Q400 looking up at 2000 pilots when this is all said and done. These positions should be bid on internally in order of...ahem...SENIORITY. Create some movement in what will otherwise be a stagnant pilot list. Maybe just maybe we can get to a 100% flow for Encore pilots permanently. Look at me going on about the way it should be, I almost forgot you don't care at all about anybody else. Well have at er. Don't expect any help from anybody when your precious new Swoop position evaporates into thin air.

[Fanblade]

Every Pilot at AC is against the 4 year new hire scale except a few in the leadership who are being slowly pushed out/voted out.

Fact is that the large majority of AC Pilots voted NO on the deal with 4 year flat pay and then the Harper Conservatives shoved it down our throats.

They took the pension too. And created B-scale.

So we're working on it:
We've got a new pension for new hires with MEPP/TBP.
We've got the B-scale getting better with YOS on your upgrade instead of starting over.
Among other things...

It's at the sacrifice of other conditions, and it's bullshit, stolen from us, stolen from those still to come by corporate/government collusion...

Why? Because the WAWCON is being eroded by the Swoops of this business. We are being pressured to expect lower pay, lower benefits, transfer flying to B-scale.

You want to point a finger at us selling you out? Try again... We're trying to hold the line on WAWCON, for us today and those that follow, maybe benefits that YOU might want...

The vacuum hurts us all. So try looking in the mirror if you're part of that vacuum.

Anyway, worked with a guy the other day who's going Captain on the 320... Not even 2 years on the property. Not saying it's right that those that don't go Captain get hosed, but at least there's a $180K remedy for some if they're inclined...

I agree with everything you stated as it is factual.

Yes you and I voted hell no!

Had a splinter group not negotiated TA 1 on the basis of “we don’t negotiate for the unborn”, and then sign a memorandum of agreement without the MEC approving it first, none of the rest would have happened.

This alone is a massive indictment on ACPA’s governance and its participation in the race to the bottom.

ACPA needs to go. The only way we stop one downing each other is to work together.

[Fanblade]

It will be WJ pilots at the controls of swoop.

There is simply too much risk for WJ to go ahead with off the street hiring for those positions. Everything from a strike at WJ as a result to the labor board reversing the entire thing.

The WJ BOD won’t take the risk. They will however play the card looking for a discount on pilot costs.

That is all that is going on right now. The rest of the debate on what ifs is just playing into WJ managements hands.

They WANT everyone to be afraid. Very afraid. If you get sucked into the fear you will get pummeled.

[RidersRule]

I'll say it again. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would want to make Swoop year one captain pay which is less then the hourly rate my wife charges as a hairdresser.

What a time to be alive.