New pot legislatiion brings on talk of pilot pee in a cup

[PilotDAR]

Her summary was, pick which you want to do - fly or use pot. Period. No AND, just OR

'Sounds fair to me. Everyone can't do everything they want in life, sometimes a choice must be made. This sounds like a choice a pilot should have to make. Can you imagine a pilot who had used marijuana, and had a mis judgment accident shortly after - could you live with yourself wondering if your use of pot had contributed to an accident, and someone else's trauma? Isn't just better to assure you're not impaired while you're working for someone else, who expects you to be in top form?

For myself, I'm not the least concerned about any testing for impairment, the authority can test me whenever they like, I have noting to hide.

[ahramin]

Just curious, can we agree that in the current aviation industry in Canada, alcohol is a bigger risk to flight safety than marijuana? I'm not talking about if it gets legalized and everyone magically starts smoking it. Currently, what is statistically more likely to be causing impairment on the flight deck? I've seen lots of hungover pilots but I'll admit I have no idea if I've flown with someone impaired by marijuana because I don't know what that would look like.

[Meatservo]

If only they had a pee test for flying skills.

Ha, ha. Exactly.

With regards to all this excitement about "legalization", I am pretty sure that everyone who really wants to consume cannabis already does. "Being illegal" didn't seem to be stopping anyone before, so if we were getting by just fine without urine tests before, we'll probably get along just fine without them now.

Everybody, including the regulator and the safety folk, seems to think that the pending legalization is going to make us all go on a dope-smoking binge and that many people who were afraid of getting arrested will now begin the lifelong habit they always wanted.

I predict zero change.

[PT6onH20]

Chase whiskey with Guiness at a bar by yourself all night, and no one bats an eye.

Eat a cookie and watch a movie, and you're a menace to society.

[North Shore]

Yeah, but it's not just one cookie! It's one, then two, then the whole pack, then the Doritos, and half a quick- bake pizza!

[digits_]

Chase whiskey with Guiness at a bar by yourself all night, and no one bats an eye.

Eat a cookie and watch a movie, and you're a menace to society.

*sigh* Who says you are a menace to society?

However, you shouldn't operate an airplane if you are under the influence of impairing substances. A substance that hasn't been researched properly/accurately (as it has been illegal), and thus the effects are not widely known.

That being said, I do not think that peeing in a cup is an appropriate response, and I will try (and probably fail) to fight it as much as I can. An anonymous no fault reporting tool to deal with impaired pilots would be best. If I'm not mistaken, a lot of airlines already have such a policy in place for alcohol abuse.

[Mr. North]

I predict zero change.

I respectfully disagree.

As someone who has followed (and heavily invested in) the emerging cannabis industry for the better part of three years, I'm quite confident we are about to witness a significant societal change.

Cannabis as you or I know it (bong rips and fat blunts) will only make up a marginal rate of consumption in what is expected to be a $20 Billion industry. Well over half of cannabis sales will be in the form of pills, edibles, beverages, oils and creams. The cannabis beverage market in particular stands to severely disrupt the entire alcohol market as people will gravitate towards uplifting drinks minus the calories, bad hangovers, and negative long term health effects. The potency will vary as wide as the product offering, from barely perceptible to full on couch lock. These numerous products and potencies offered by legalisation will attract a large segment of the population who were not previously inclined to "smoke a doobie" or otherwise partake in the current stigma.

Over the next 5-10 years cannabis will permeate our social fabric to such a degree that it's consumption will be considered normal and celebrated (much like alcohol currently). In this new environment of acceptance, it will be increasingly difficult for pilots (or other safety related personnel) to rationalise their continued abstinence.

Transport Canada's default "zero tolerance" policy is an easy, if not predictable, position for an agency struggling to maintain relevance in the face of relentless budgetary cuts. Unfortunately their position does not recognise the current reality or that of the future. We have roughly 13,000 ATPL's in this country. A good number of them already consume cannabis and I'd argue a good deal more will as cannabis becomes increasingly normalised. In the perfect world Transport Canada would take the initiative to determine what is impairment, and apply guidelines for appropriate use. Unfortunately I think a number of pilots will lose their licence and/or their jobs before we see significant regulatory progress.

While I support cannabis legalisation it is undoubtedly exposing our profession to a large regulatory risk. I would caution all pilots to refrain from cannabis use until firm guidelines are in place on an international level. With legalisation and in the absence of random testing one could arguably be tempted to partake. However I would remind you that it is still federally illegal in the US and any random checks conducted on their soil would currently bar you from entering for life. And what good is an airline pilot if they cannot travel to the US?

I'm certain cannabis use by pilots will be regulated at some point. But it will take a number of years, an endless amount of studies, and most likely some dramatic case law to make it a reality. In the mean time I would suggest following the rules, no matter how dumb or redundant they seem.

[PT6onH20]

Yeah, but it's not just one cookie! It's one, then two, then the whole pack, then the Doritos, and half a quick- bake pizza!

Dr. Oetker and Taco Bell shares. You heard it here first!

[Back2Final]

Just hope your not in a incident/accident. Test result positive , pilot had THC in system. Doesn't matter if it's legal, how long you smoked it, public opinion and your boss will probably kick you to the curb in no time....for the first few years at least.

[C.W.E.]

Has anyone determined which drug is most detrimental for pilots?

I was addicted to alcohol to the extent I finally had to go to an addiction treatment hospital in the USA to get cured.

Thankfully there does not seem to have been any long term damage to my system that I can determine.

Had I been using cannabis to the same extent I did alcohol for all those years would there have been long term damage to my system?

[trey kule]

“A good number of them already consume cannabis “

Please share the stats you consulted to be able to state this conclusion! And maybe quantify it a bit better.

I am going to state it again. At the present time, and in the forseeable future, any positive test will be career ending.
TC can add urine testing to a medical in an instant. Employers, more and more require it.

Yep, you can compare it to alcohol and claim it is not as bad, that comparison means nothing,

At the present time alcohol has a history that allows a fairly sound database. Pot does not. And as the public expects the regulator to take care of them,TC will be taking no chances.

Forget the rationalizations, comparisons. None of them hold water. Using pot at this time is a career determining decision..

[HiFlyChick]

I don’t doubt that there would be some sort of long term effect. But if you’re concerned about that, then where is your concern for the majority of us who consume alcohol while not on the job? Alcohol, especially when consumed chronically, has very serious side effects. There have been high profile incidents recently concerning pilots attempting to fly intoxicated. Where’s your outrage at the lack of persistent mandatory alcohol and alcohol abuse screenings?

Since you quoted me, I would like to point out that, my personal opinion aside, what I posted was a report on what the RAMO's stance was - regardless of what anyone believes to be right, wrong or otherwise, she made it pretty clear that she wouldn't tolerate pot use and she's the one with the power to yank your medical. I'm not giving my opinion, I'm relating what I heard her opinion to be

[C.W.E.]

That was the opinions that the doctors gave me HiFlyChick when I asked their opinion on the use of cannabis both here in Canada and in Europe, they stated flatly that using cannabis would be career ending if it was found to be true.

[photofly]

When you pee in a cup for your medical do you know what the purpose of such is?

Check for diabetes.

I've never been asked to pee in a cup. Just pee over a diabetes test strip, put the strip in a polythene bag for hygiene reasons, and give the bag to the nurse. She takes a cursory look at it, and throws it in the trash.

[annonyous123]

I hope it becomes like Alcohol, smoke em if you got em while on days off. I laugh how some of these old skips are dead set against it, yet are totally fine with drinking 3-4 scotch every night...

[HansDietrich]

Once weed becomes legal, every pilot should be able to smoke it if he or she chooses to, the same way we can drink beer, wine and whiskey. Peeing in a cup and testing "positive" for marijuana, does not mean you're intoxicated. Until they find better ways to identify (marijuana induced) intoxication, they should just trust us to do our job. Pilots get paid for risk management. Coming to work "unfit" is one of them. We know not to come to work drunk, ill, on medication, fatigued... or high on weed.

[cncpc]

I predict zero change.

I respectfully disagree.

As someone who has followed (and heavily invested in) the emerging cannabis industry for the better part of three years, I'm quite confident we are about to witness a significant societal change.

Cannabis as you or I know it (bong rips and fat blunts) will only make up a marginal rate of consumption in what is expected to be a $20 Billion industry. Well over half of cannabis sales will be in the form of pills, edibles, beverages, oils and creams. The cannabis beverage market in particular stands to severely disrupt the entire alcohol market as people will gravitate towards uplifting drinks minus the calories, bad hangovers, and negative long term health effects. The potency will vary as wide as the product offering, from barely perceptible to full on couch lock. These numerous products and potencies offered by legalisation will attract a large segment of the population who were not previously inclined to "smoke a doobie" or otherwise partake in the current stigma.

Over the next 5-10 years cannabis will permeate our social fabric to such a degree that it's consumption will be considered normal and celebrated (much like alcohol currently). In this new environment of acceptance, it will be increasingly difficult for pilots (or other safety related personnel) to rationalise their continued abstinence.

Transport Canada's default "zero tolerance" policy is an easy, if not predictable, position for an agency struggling to maintain relevance in the face of relentless budgetary cuts. Unfortunately their position does not recognise the current reality or that of the future. We have roughly 13,000 ATPL's in this country. A good number of them already consume cannabis and I'd argue a good deal more will as cannabis becomes increasingly normalised. In the perfect world Transport Canada would take the initiative to determine what is impairment, and apply guidelines for appropriate use. Unfortunately I think a number of pilots will lose their licence and/or their jobs before we see significant regulatory progress.

While I support cannabis legalisation it is undoubtedly exposing our profession to a large regulatory risk. I would caution all pilots to refrain from cannabis use until firm guidelines are in place on an international level. With legalisation and in the absence of random testing one could arguably be tempted to partake. However I would remind you that it is still federally illegal in the US and any random checks conducted on their soil would currently bar you from entering for life. And what good is an airline pilot if they cannot travel to the US?

I'm certain cannabis use by pilots will be regulated at some point. But it will take a number of years, an endless amount of studies, and most likely some dramatic case law to make it a reality. In the mean time I would suggest following the rules, no matter how dumb or redundant they seem.

Transport Canada does not have a "zero tolerance" policy for cannabis. That would be absurd. And would fail a Charter test.

In the course of drafting a workplace impairment policy at a previous employer, I contacted a RAMO to ask what TC's position was in relation to pilots who have a prescription for medical marijuana. His response was "We expect pilots in the cockpit to be clear headed." In a nutshell, that is the only legal position TC could ever sustain. A policy which was directed at controlling a legal lifestyle enjoyed by all other Canadians at the possible cost of career termination would be tossed fast and far by the courts.

I respectfully disagree with your investor enthusiasm about multi billion dollar legal markets. As the system is currently structured, it is transparently a system where a few connected Liberal party insiders are out to fleece investors on a bullshit prospectus that ignores these foundation facts about that market:

• It is long established over many decades, with producers, distributors, and consumers very familiar with the system
  As Nazi Germany wasn't defeated by the US, but rather Russia, so it is that prohibition was not defeated by Justin Trudeau and marijuana parties, and letters to the editor. It was defeated by those who broke the laws on production, distribution and consumption.
  In an absurd error in the present proposal, these people are left out of the new system, while leaving their networks and highly advanced knowledge intact.
  They are going to be drinking the milkshake of anyone with a stock market listing.

I agree with your contention that a significant percentage of pilots use marijuana in varying degrees of frequency.

[annonyous123]

I've never been a regular smoker, something about not knowing who has dealt with the substance prior to me has always made me a little paranoid. I'd be lying if I said haven't had the odd puff in my younger years though with friends, and I have to say......the difference in how one feels the next morning after smoking 4-5 puffs of a joint and having a complete riot of a laugh vs drinking 10-12 beers is astounding......Im a regular drinker, and no matter what, I always have a tight head the next day. With Marijuana I wake up feeling like I've never slept better and ready to roll. I am way more alert the next day of Smoking vs Drinking.

I look forward to the day I can pick up a pack of joints at Shoppers Drug mart ,and watch a hilarious movie with my wife......it'll be just like high school all over again.

[Blueontop]

While I support cannabis legalisation it is undoubtedly exposing our profession to a large regulatory risk. I would caution all pilots to refrain from cannabis use until firm guidelines are in place on an international level. With legalisation and in the absence of random testing one could arguably be tempted to partake. However I would remind you that it is still federally illegal in the US and any random checks conducted on their soil would currently bar you from entering for life. And what good is an airline pilot if they cannot travel to the US?

Robert Piche..

[C.W.E.]

I hope it becomes like Alcohol, smoke em if you got em while on days off. I laugh how some of these old skips are dead set against it, yet are totally fine with drinking 3-4 scotch every night...

Ahh...but the US customs and immigration have a different opinion.

[AirFrame]

Just curious, can we agree that in the current aviation industry in Canada, alcohol is a bigger risk to flight safety than marijuana? I'm not talking about if it gets legalized and everyone magically starts smoking it. Currently, what is statistically more likely to be causing impairment on the flight deck? I've seen lots of hungover pilots but I'll admit I have no idea if I've flown with someone impaired by marijuana because I don't know what that would look like.

I submit that this is mostly because alcohol is legal, and socially acceptable. Marijuana is both illegal and socially stigmatized, and getting caught with it on the flight deck I expect would have serious repercussions... Picking up a bottle at the duty-free after a layover, not so much.

[No Smoke, No Fire]

Transport Canada does not have a "zero tolerance" policy for cannabis. That would be absurd. And would fail a Charter test.

My point exactly.

[Mr. North]

Transport Canada does not have a "zero tolerance" policy for cannabis. That would be absurd. And would fail a Charter test.

My point exactly.

Short on time to find specifics but a quick google search proves that Transport Canada does indeed have a zero tolerance policy for cannabis.

It was strongly reinforced that TC will continue to have a zero tolerance
policy for cannabis, regardless of whether it becomes legal, as cannabis use is not consistent with being medically fit to fly.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca ... _2017E.pdf

Transport Canada is reminding pilots that while the rest of the country may be changing its attitude toward marijuana, it hasn’t relaxed its stance. On July 1, 2018, possession of small amounts of pot and its recreational use will be legal in Canada. Provinces are developing intoxication detection and enforcement standards for drivers caught impaired behind the wheel. TC officials told delegates to the Air Transport Association of Canada meeting last week that any amount of THC, the psychoactive chemical in cannabis, found in a pilot’s bloodstream will result in immediate suspension of flight privileges and that will last until the THC is flushed from his or her system.

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/T ... 907-1.html

[C.W.E.]

The real danger of a pilot using any drug for personal pleasure regardless if said drug is legal or illegal is the insidious reliance on the drug that leads to addiction.

I can not speak to cannabis but I sure can to alcohol.

My addiction was well established before I became aware of it and as the realisation of my dependency on it became more evident I had a decision to make, keep drinking and risk ending my career and shortening my lifespan or quit completely and continue flying and enhance my life span.

So I made the decision to quit and it was not easy, first I tried AA and it only worked for about two years on two occasions.

In the end I had to seek medical help to end my addiction and fortunately it worked and I was able to fly until I decided to retire because I wanted to, not because I had to.

Addiction is a real bitch and the percentage of people who manage to recover is not all that impressive.

[valleyboy]

It really does not matter what is legal and what is not. Companies can adopt a zero tolerance if they choose. Most have gone to 12 hours for the consumption of alcohol and certainly have the right to demand no drinking at all on company time (meaning anytime except a GDO or holidays) With the 12 hour rule they have practically removed drinking at any time on company assignment. You can disregard, but as I go on to say, you job is on the line since you are in violation of your com.

In this day of "cover your ass" you can go blindly on and chances are you would never get caught smoking up (or however you ingest mary jane) but if the shit hits the fan and either you are tested or there is a post-mortem all you worked for goes out the window or your family suffers for your indiscretions. I'm no prude but just sayin, think before you have that joint or that drink, especially on layovers. How many times have we seen someone ruin their career of a brain fart -- too many I think --