Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

[DanWEC]

L39, That's a good argument. As a pretty obvious democrat, I also believe strongly in well funded education as a foundation. (Even though private Universities have driven up the cost of Post Secondary Education.) However none of the industries you listed have a self imposed shortage and wage depression derived from the previous exploitation of an excess of labour. Also, aviation in Canada is unique when it comes to the extremely limited employment options at the airline level. A doctor, nurse, engineer, sparky or plumber can work anywhere, or be self employed.

[fish4life]

Rookie do you have any post secondary?

[rookiepilot]

Rookie do you have any post secondary?

Yes, I do.

I dropped out partway through a business degree. Was fully supporting myself and ran out of money to do that and attend school. So I started my first business along with working.

While in school I was the # 1 student in my class in economics and accounting, and tutored 3 other students. 2 happened to be rather attractive fellow students of the female persuasion. My final mark in both courses in year 1 was above 97%. Whatever. It wasn't hard.

My economics prof, who I had many great conversations with, was disappointed I needed to drop out. But I like eating more, that's what happens when you're on your own at 18.

My turn.

How exactly would a BA , for example, help me be a safer, more professional pilot at AC?

[JasonE]

I guess we know where the 10% luxury tax is going now!

Still not a pilot shortage, but pay shortage. I'd go get my commercial license if it paid well enough, but I couldn't afford to live on the entry level wages.

[fish4life]

Your degree you were taking was subsidized by the government, so in a way everything you learnt until you had to drop out indirectly subsidized your business.

This isn’t an argument about if a degree helps a pilot be a pilot but more one of whether the training to be a pilot should be subsidized.

[rookiepilot]

Your degree you were taking was subsidized by the government, so in a way everything you learnt until you had to drop out indirectly subsidized your business.

This isn’t an argument about if a degree helps a pilot be a pilot but more one of whether the training to be a pilot should be subsidized.

It becomes an arms race, overall. Why should AC require a degree on top of the pilot qualifications? Because everyone wants a degree for anything. It's pure prestige reasons.
They know the subsidies mean they can demand a degree.

Underprice anything and insatiable demand results. Look at our ER rooms. Half the people clogging up the waiting room, have the sniffles. Heck, order more tests. It's "free".

Look at the US and the mess they are in. Same reasons as the housing crisis.

Too many cheap loans.

Companies should instead raise wages, to attract new entrants, which will make training costs viable. Same for other career choices. Serious candidates will make it work.

Subsidized education encourages far too many tourists, who try out one degree after another, on the taxpayer dime. So many kids do this, try things and then change their major.

[fish4life]

The degree is already subsidized though

[rookiepilot]

The degree is already subsidized though

So the government goes ahead and -- for argument's sake -- fully subsidizes pilot training. 100%.

Mom and Dad say to Johnny, "go try out that pilot thing". "That's a respectable career".

Will the quality of the average FO coming on the line, get better or worse?

[Squaretail]

Subsidized education encourages far too many tourists, who try out one degree after another, on the taxpayer dime. So many kids do this, try things and then change their major.

Do you have anything concrete to back up the "tourist" theory? You bring it up consistently, yet I've known no one ever who would fit this description. I think you overrate how much people like being students or being in school. The few people I know with multiple degrees, are incredibly successful and self funded their education. While I don't doubt these "tourists" exist, I'm doubting that they present a significant drain.

[fish4life]

The degree is already subsidized though

So the government goes ahead and -- for argument's sake -- fully subsidizes pilot training. 100%.

Mom and Dad say to Johnny, "go try out that pilot thing". "That's a respectable career".

Will the quality of the average FO coming on the line, get better or worse?

if you have a limited number of spots and only accept the best not just the people who can afford it then yes the quality should go up. Medicine as an example

[ayseven]

If you cannot get highly experienced people, you need people who can learn anything you throw at them. University gives you that ability. Of course there are rare exceptions. It gives them a more polished person, who should be able to adapt to anything.
I don't remember more than two or three people at university who were there to fool around. They don't usually last. Nowadays, with the costs, i would doubt there are more

[jakeandelwood]

I think he's saying that we've quickly come to the point where "when everyone has a degree, no one has a degree" most jobs do not require a degree. They require specific training. Even when you think of doctors and lawyers. While their specific training is in the form of a degree it could easily just be called a license. A bachelor's degree has been so devalued that it is virtually useless other than "everyone else has one so I need one too"

Someone who gets it.

Never mind the degradation in the quality of education that subsidies create, along with outright scams.


We simply can't afford to take this to it's logical extension, and have unlimited numbers of career students.

I'm sure the ivory tower club disagrees ----

Yup, another issue with free or subsidized post secondary education is you end up with a society full of doctors, dentists, and lawyers and no one to pick up your garbage at the curb, but a plus to that is your garbage man is now "in demand" so he gets paid more and can make a reasonbly good living at it.

[C-GGGQ]

No you end up with a society full of BBA or MBA garbage men because "every other candidate has a BBA"

[photofly]

Underprice anything and insatiable demand results. Look at our ER rooms. Half the people clogging up the waiting room, have the sniffles.

And you know this because ... aside from being an expert on higher education, economics and investments you're now also an expert in healthcare???

Make people wait in the snow, I say. If they don't like it and go home, they obviously weren't sick. If they die of exposure well that's money saved on treating them.

Heck, order more tests. It's "free".

We should have an American healthcare system, where nobody can afford anything and people lose their houses because they get sick?

[L39Guy]

There is no downside to having an (over) educated and enlightened society. Yes, a lot of people do not get an education that is directly applicable to their jobs - universities are particularly good as this as opposed to trade schools - however educated people tend to make better decisions as they tend to make decisions based upon knowledge. Scores of studies prove that individual health is directly related to education levels as an example.

While Rookie cannot see the virtue of his economics education as being a better airline pilot, it is true that an economics degree will not help him fly a better ILS. But what it will do, on average, is make him or her trainable to to fly different aircraft types, in different environments, better decision making, etc. A higher education may not provide direct, flying skills but it teaches one to learn which is a career long exercise as a professional pilot.

WRT to health care and at the risk of thread drift, Canada could have a US style health care system with no 6 months wait for hip replacements, etc. But that takes money and people are not prepared to pay more than they do already. The US system costs them twice the percentage of GDP as our system and they do have short wait times but by most other metrics theirs is inferior, life span, infant mortality, etc.

[Capt. Underpants]

Never mind the degradation in the quality of education that subsidies create ...

Where's your source for this ridiculous claim?

[goldeneagle]

Will the quality of the average FO coming on the line, get better or worse?

It'll probably get a lot better, just look at existing examples. Current non-subsidized training any school will take you as a candidate, and even a weak candidate will continue with training until they make a barely passed mark on a test, or they run out of money, which ever happens first.

Now look at the example already in place for a fully subsidized candidate going from zero hours to left seat of a heavy 4 engine jet entirely on the taxpayer subsidized nickel. That example already exists in the form of the Canadian Armed Forces. Ask any airline recruiter what happens to an application from somebody that learned to fly on that subsidized program ? That's right, it goes top of the pile, and, at most places, it's a special pile as well. BUT, that program has very strict entrance requirements, and once one is accepted, there are very specific performance requirements for training to continue. It's kinda like med school, also highly subsidized. The entrance requirements totally prevent the 'tourist' you suggest is common. And once into med school, every round of exams is 'up or out'.

There is yet another path for learning to fly via a fully subsidized path. I've done lots of initial PPC candidates over the 40 years I was in a position to do that, and from the whole lot, two stand out as the absolute best candidates I had ever worked with. Both of them were flight instructors at the time and moving into charter work for the first time. The path they took to pilots licensing was thru the Air Cadets. Imagine that, another subsidized path to a pilot license.

I'd go so far as to say, a subsidized program with strict entrance requirements and strict progression requirements would produce candidates far superior to what the current system produces.

[Zaibatsu]

rookie is living in his own reality distortion field. I didn’t need to go to school to be successful, therefore nobody else should. I don’t want to subsidize other people’s success because nobody subsidized mine.

Who could be an education tourist? Even if it was free, who has the time and energy? Who wants to go to a hospital just for fun? Most people avoid it at all costs. It’s like the mythological welfare queens. Trust me if accumulation of wealth was based on work, the single mother of three who got into a bad situation and is raising kids and going to school would be a billionaire, and the trust fund baby moving piles of money from one column to another while doing or creating absolutely nothing would starve to death.

All forms of education are subsidized one way or another. And your successful business is based in a nation who’s economy is fuelled by record public debt.

[rookiepilot]

Epic trolling to my commentary challenging the notion of unlimited freebies. Shouldn't be that surprised.

We will end up with this:

https://www.ft.com/content/16546c24-323 ... a0cae3f0de

Then who pays? Tell me how the math works.

Are you well paid captains ready for 75% top tax rates?

Don't you bitch after the commentary here. Free isn't "free".

And BTW I never said I supported US style health care, don't know how that got in there.

And -- as far as quality -- I never referred to the military. I have tremendous respect for the military's caliber of training.

[mel gibson]

The population is getting older and people are
having less children. Less people for all career paths.
Young people seem to like computer jobs. It is not fair to say they are lazy. As far as weak candidates, maybe?

Air Cadets is a great program and should be expanded.
But, I heard last year that due to lack of flight instructors , the amount of Private Pilot scholarships was severely cut.
Bit of a pickle right now.

[rookiepilot]

The population is getting older and people are
having less children.

Heart of the issue, right here. Massive structural changes will need to be made. But folks won't like it much.........see FT article......

We cannot afford the structure we have now. End of story.

[ayseven]

Mr Rookie,
You are wrong on facts. Just as an example, 75% tax rate would never apply to those making less than millions. Second, You are assuming that because the government spends, people get taxed more. This fallacy is because conservative "thinkers" believe the system is a zero sum game, which it isn't - what goes into someone else's mouth does NOT come out of yours. You will find different "opinions" on this subject, but there are a lot of fallacies out there.

We CAN afford to have these things. Every time the government pays part of a student's way through higher learning, they get a pay back in a better, higher paying job they student gets. Even if tax RATES stay exactly the same, the government will get more money from that person, as his salary increases. I know it is frustrating to see what is going on, and we are all looking for solutions to these "problems", but you are trying to talk economics through your hat, I am afraid. I do not have an easy solution to any of this, but when the government subsidises education, it is never a bad thing. Never.

Now, does this make better pilots? Should universities and colleges be set up to rely on foreign students' massive fees? I do not know. Being a pilot is not rocket science, but airlines think higher education is important, for their own reasons.

[rxl]

I think that so-called "education tourists" actually help to subsidize Canadian students ...
have a look at this table - https://www.univcan.ca/universities/fac ... niversity/

An educated world is a better world.

[rookiepilot]

I sense the crowd here would agree with some of the elitist leadership, who would restrict voting privileges to those graduates of approved left wing indoctrination schools of higher thought and -- what was that word -- enlightenment?

True story -- that -- some are advocating.

Sound good all? You'd be in line with another nation, oh about a century ago....

Universities today (too often ) do not teach one how to "learn". They indoctrinate, comrade.....

[rigpiggy]

Sorry guys i have to call B@llocks. I have flown with many degreed, credentialed wunderkind who couldn't fly straight and level without a flight director. One guy had engineering degree, and flight college(seneca) who would rock me to sleep. He also couldn't take criticism, direction, or technical training(not that i am much better). But a degree, and another language make such a difference to the hr mavens.