Everyone’s talking about it...

[derateNO]

Also, keep in mind all we're really talking about right now is 705.

Where a real problem is also starting to show is at the 703 level. When I first started flying you needed at a MINIMUM, 1000 hours to sit right seat in a Navajo. And that was already low considering the years before you need thousands more. Do I think you need 3000 hours to do that or even 3000 hours to be a Captain at 703? No, I don't... but the experience levels are dropping so quickly past the level I feel is "comfortable." If all 703 operators stood behind their pilots decisions then it woulnd't be as much of a concern, but we all know that's not the case and the pressure is immense to fly in weather you shouldn't be in and fly overweight. A 21 year old pimply Confed grad with no real life experience doesn't know HOW to say no.

NOW, we have 500 hour pilots flying around Northern Manitoba and Ontario in the left seat of single IFR multi engine pistons. Flying a King Air or Navajo is where you really learn what real icing is like, how to deal with shitty performance on take off our of some dump reserve, not a Q400 with GOBS of power.

I think we'll see more incidences at the 703 level as well.

[derateNO]

The challenging part of being in the left seat of a 705 machine has really nothing to do with basic control of the aircraft. Anyone who's done the job would know that. When things get really fun is middle of winter, 6 legs, dealing with deicing, take off alternates, actual alternates, CRFI into fun places like Ft st John, .

aka: flight planning.

No.

This is shit I'm dealing with WHILE flying the plane, dofus.

Do you just trust the dispatcher and assume what they thought the weather would be, is what it is?

I can't even tell you the amount of times the weather at my planned alternate changed. And now I have to find one that works, and manage fuel. And all while flying a 30 minute leg where I'm also running landing numbers, watching the weather at the destination as it begins to fall and making sure my 500 hour FO doesn't do anything stupid.

You really need to take a break from pretending you know anything about flying a plane bigger than a Cessna.

[altiplano]

That all workload and it can get high in a hurry... some guys manage it better than others, but it is challenging. Still not the hardest part though, IMO.

[derateNO]

What would you say is the hardest part?

Personally I have a hard time really putting it into words.

[digits_]

The challenging part of being in the left seat of a 705 machine has really nothing to do with basic control of the aircraft. Anyone who's done the job would know that. When things get really fun is middle of winter, 6 legs, dealing with deicing, take off alternates, actual alternates, CRFI into fun places like Ft st John, .

aka: flight planning.

No.

This is shit I'm dealing with WHILE flying the plane, dofus.

Do you just trust the dispatcher and assume what they thought the weather would be, is what it is?

I can't even tell you the amount of times the weather at my planned alternate changed. And now I have to find one that works, and manage fuel. And all while flying a 30 minute leg where I'm also running landing numbers, watching the weather at the destination as it begins to fall and making sure my 500 hour FO doesn't do anything stupid.

You really need to take a break from pretending you know anything about flying a plane bigger than a Cessna.

I sincerely hope you flight plan a take off alternate before departure. If you do that while flying, you are creating problems, which is exactly the point I am trying to make.

I find it unlikely the weather goes from alternate minima to below landing minima on a 30 minute flight. Sure, it will occasionally happen, but if it becomes a regular thing, the issue is with the flight planning, not the weather. If the weather at your destination falls below landing minima and you dont get visual, you divert. That should not be a stress factor, especially not on a 30 min flight. You don’t need a ton of experience for that. That is just following procedures. Your own personal point of view might not even be important, follow the company policies, eg “the weather is crap but we would like you to try it anyway”.

[altiplano]

Are you flying airliners now?

Flying is mostly the easy part...

[digits_]

What I do doesn't matter. Assume I never got my license. None of it is relevant for the arguments I am trying to make.

And yes I agree, flying is the easy part.

Why do you think jazz isn't crashing planes with 1500 hour captains?

[altiplano]

LOL... but it does.

I'm not arguing with someone that doesn't know what they're talking about.

[derateNO]

aka: flight planning.

No.

This is shit I'm dealing with WHILE flying the plane, dofus.

Do you just trust the dispatcher and assume what they thought the weather would be, is what it is?

I can't even tell you the amount of times the weather at my planned alternate changed. And now I have to find one that works, and manage fuel. And all while flying a 30 minute leg where I'm also running landing numbers, watching the weather at the destination as it begins to fall and making sure my 500 hour FO doesn't do anything stupid.

You really need to take a break from pretending you know anything about flying a plane bigger than a Cessna.

I sincerely hope you flight plan a take off alternate before departure. If you do that while flying, you are creating problems, which is exactly the point I am trying to make.

I find it unlikely the weather goes from alternate minima to below landing minima on a 30 minute flight. Sure, it will occasionally happen, but if it becomes a regular thing, the issue is with the flight planning, not the weather. If the weather at your destination falls below landing minima and you dont get visual, you divert. That should not be a stress factor, especially not on a 30 min flight. You don’t need a ton of experience for that. That is just following procedures. Your own personal point of view might not even be important, follow the company policies, eg “the weather is crap but we would like you to try it anyway”.

If you actually flew airplanes you'd know that you can go from not needing a TO alternate to needing one very quickly, after you've pushed, or while having long delays due to deicing or thunderstorms. Or having your original one go to shit. And yes weather can and does change fairly quickly from time to time even in sub 1 hour flights.

But what do I know?

[Rowdy]

Just to add to the mix, I've taken off in the Q with the weather at the destination being SKC and forecasting SKC and getting there (13 mins air time) At minimums!

I also can't count how many times I've done YEG-YYC and had it go from pretty nice to Cat 2 and Cat 3 approaches enroute. Still, if you can't handle the workload in a 2 crew environment on a 30 min leg, you shouldn't be in an airplane to begin with.

[aerosexual]

I've never worked at Tim Horton's, but I'd love to argue with somebody that works there about what the hardest part of working at Tim Horton's is ...

I can assure you that dispatch even in the 705 world is a box ticking exercise for the most part. The planning that goes into a flight plan is not that comprehensive. It's a good resource but dealing with challenging and changing conditions in an airplane is more challenging than from behind a desk.

['97 Tercel]

We're amazing.

[TG]

We're amazing.

yes..

[cjp]

...Ever have to deal with dead boots on arrival into YVR with moderate to severe icing? Let me tell you it's not ideal.

I want to hear more about your story. We're they dead before you chose to leave the ground (MEL'd) or once you tried to clear the ice?

[derateNO]

...Ever have to deal with dead boots on arrival into YVR with moderate to severe icing? Let me tell you it's not ideal.

I want to hear more about your story. We're they dead before you chose to leave the ground (MEL'd) or once you tried to clear the ice?

An outer section didn't inflate fully. Didn't manifest until there was ice on the boots and it didn't have the strength to inflate and shed the ice. Ended up landing without an issue, but it was still a bit nerve raking.

[cjp]

...Ever have to deal with dead boots on arrival into YVR with moderate to severe icing? Let me tell you it's not ideal.

I want to hear more about your story. We're they dead before you chose to leave the ground (MEL'd) or once you tried to clear the ice?

An outer section didn't inflate fully. Didn't manifest until there was ice on the boots and it didn't have the strength to inflate and shed the ice. Ended up landing without an issue, but it was still a bit nerve raking.

Always unfortunate finding out when you need it most, that something is unserviceable. Glad you made it out without incident.

When I see people post about Jazz being unable to upgrade pilots, or postings in the careers section looking for crew members at 250hrs, when those spots wouldn't go to people with less than 1500hrs 5 years ago, I remark at how the industry has changed.

[derateNO]

I want to hear more about your story. We're they dead before you chose to leave the ground (MEL'd) or once you tried to clear the ice?

An outer section didn't inflate fully. Didn't manifest until there was ice on the boots and it didn't have the strength to inflate and shed the ice. Ended up landing without an issue, but it was still a bit nerve raking.

Always unfortunate finding out when you need it most, that something is unserviceable. Glad you made it out without incident.

When I see people post about Jazz being unable to upgrade pilots, or postings in the careers section looking for crew members at 250hrs, when those spots wouldn't go to people with less than 1500hrs 5 years ago, I remark at how the industry has changed.

Yeah, I agree. Thankfully I did a bit of time in broken 703 planes so I just reverted to my training...

Things really have changed. 5 years ago you needed 2000-3000 hours to fly a Navajo. Now we have two FO's sitting at the pointy end of a 767 flying over the North Atlantic with the same.

[smooth]

Give you a example, EVA airline in Taiwan train their 250 hrs pilots for a year on ground and in the sim before putting them in the right seat of 320 or 777. During this year, 1/3 of people get fired for not making the cut. They have been doing this for almost 30 years, and EVA is one of the safest airline in the world.

It all come down to how company does their training to a group of lower experience pilots. It can be done, we just need to change our training procedure

[derateNO]

It's a money problem plain and simple.

Remove flat pay and the WB FO positions go filled tomorrow. People who don't really have the experience to jump to NB CA but are doing it anyways because of the pay won't need to if they make a proper wage as an NB FO.

Experienced new hire CA's from overseas and WJ/SW etc. would then filter into those NB CA positions.

Over time the Jr new hire positions would then revert back to what they should be. NB FO and WB RP.

[Dronepiper]

I truly believe that the number of flight hours a pilot has, only accounts for a very small portion of what makes a good Captain or FO.

I have seen pilots with 250 hours who were very sharp. They had the right attitude. They were humble. They were always thinking ahead. They showed up early. They always wanted to stay one step ahead of the airplane and operation. They knew when to ask questions, and they knew when to say “no.” Some of the best FO’s I have ever had were around the 200-300 hr mark and straight out of college, meanwhile the 1000-2000 hours FOs that flew pipeline, or instructed, were absolute GARBAGE. I am not saying that all 200 hours pilots are good, but what I am saying is that not all 5000 pilots are great either.

I have seen pilots with thousands of hours that shouldn’t be anywhere near the front end of an airplane. I witnessed someone with 8000 hours fail a 705 Left seat PPC. They would have failed a lot sooner if it wasn’t for the coaching that the 2000 FO sitting in the right seat was giving. Based on what I saw, I wouldn’t trust that 8000 hour pilot with the left seat of a Navajo.

I am sure we have all seen someone with 5000 hours plus who shouldn’t be at the front end of a pointy thing with wings.

There are some pilots that I have met with 500 hours who I would trust in the left seat of Q400 at 500 hours. Would they be as efficient as someone with more experience... Probably not, but they are smart enough to know they need to take it slow. They know they always need to give themselves a way out if things were to get hairy. They wouldn’t be afraid to ask questions, even if it meant picking up the phone and calling a colleague or supervisor during a stop.

There are a lot of pilots who I have met that I wouldn’t trust in the left seat of a king air with 5000 hours.

I have seen pilots with 200 hours that were garbage. I have seen pilots with 5000 hours that were garbage. I have also seen great 200 hour pilots and great 5000 hour pilots.

It all about attitude. If you don’t know, or you are in unfamiliar territory, remember to always leave yourself a way out.

Remember that FO that crashed the Atlas Air cargo aircraft in the US, and his horrendous record? I think he had over 5000 hours. Hours mean very little in the equation.

[co-joe]

In 1982, everybody KNEW you needed 8000 hours to be a Navajo Captain.
In 1998, everybody KNEW you needed 5000 hours to be a King Air Captain.
In 2005, everybody knew you needed 3000 hours to get an interview with Jazz and it took 20 years to be a Captain.
Just imagine what we will know tomorrow...

[smooth]

totally agree with you

I truly believe that the number of flight hours a pilot has, only accounts for a very small portion of what makes a good Captain or FO.

I have seen pilots with 250 hours who were very sharp. They had the right attitude. They were humble. They were always thinking ahead. They showed up early. They always wanted to stay one step ahead of the airplane and operation. They knew when to ask questions, and they knew when to say “no.” Some of the best FO’s I have ever had were around the 200-300 hr mark and straight out of college, meanwhile the 1000-2000 hours FOs that flew pipeline, or instructed, were absolute GARBAGE. I am not saying that all 200 hours pilots are good, but what I am saying is that not all 5000 pilots are great either.

I have seen pilots with thousands of hours that shouldn’t be anywhere near the front end of an airplane. I witnessed someone with 8000 hours fail a 705 Left seat PPC. They would have failed a lot sooner if it wasn’t for the coaching that the 2000 FO sitting in the right seat was giving. Based on what I saw, I wouldn’t trust that 8000 hour pilot with the left seat of a Navajo.

I am sure we have all seen someone with 5000 hours plus who shouldn’t be at the front end of a pointy thing with wings.

There are some pilots that I have met with 500 hours who I would trust in the left seat of Q400 at 500 hours. Would they be as efficient as someone with more experience... Probably not, but they are smart enough to know they need to take it slow. They know they always need to give themselves a way out if things were to get hairy. They wouldn’t be afraid to ask questions, even if it meant picking up the phone and calling a colleague or supervisor during a stop.

There are a lot of pilots who I have met that I wouldn’t trust in the left seat of a king air with 5000 hours.

I have seen pilots with 200 hours that were garbage. I have seen pilots with 5000 hours that were garbage. I have also seen great 200 hour pilots and great 5000 hour pilots.

It all about attitude. If you don’t know, or you are in unfamiliar territory, remember to always leave yourself a way out.

Remember that FO that crashed the Atlas Air cargo aircraft in the US, and his horrendous record? I think he had over 5000 hours. Hours mean very little in the equation.

[TheStig]

I guess I'm in the minority here but I find that lack of experience in aviation to be a concern. the issue seem to be that we use hours to measure experience and they don't go hand in hand as we all know that hours in one type of operation don't always translate into manful experience for another. It's hard to say exactly how many hours make a pilot experienced, but the learning curve is much steeper between 250, 500,1000 and 1500 hours than it is from 10,000, 10,250, 10,500, and 11,500 hours.

[l_reason]

All safety concerns aside (I do believe there are some serious concerns having only 1800 hours of experience in the cockpit of a 705 operation). Two regional jets take off at the same time on a cross boarder flight YYZ-JFK and JFK-YYZ. let’s compare what the folks in the front are making. Let’s start with how much a Canadian crew is making per hour as our system is right now. I’ll just guess at $43/h in the right and $83/h in the left, $126/h between them for about 2000 hours of experience.

I’ll pick Envoy to represent the American regional as it’s the feeder to one of their national carriers. The FO in an EMB 140 is making $50/h + (the signing bonus of 18k at year 1) works out to $70/h. The Left seat gets $77/h. I don’t know how the bonuses work so I’ll just say $147 between them for about 3500 hours of experience. The big factor is it’s in USD.

Canadians $126 CDN
Americans 147x1.3=191CDN
191-126=65/h

So you now have a crew making about $65/h LESS then their American counterparts. Sure you can talk about cost of living and such but looking at it from a businesses perspective rather then a employee’s. Most other costs are the same regardless of where the aircraft is based.

Each plane needs about 7 crews, I’ll calculate it at 50k/crew a year cheaper for the Canadian company. That’s $350,000 cheaper to operate EACH airplane. Jazz has a fleet of about 100 aircraft. $35 million per year isn’t chump change. I wonder if an airline could lobby the government make sure we never see a 1500hour rule here.

What if Mr. Trump catches wind of this? Maybe he will sign a bill that says if you want to land in or fly over the USA in an airliner you need a airline license. What harm would that cause him?

Jazz

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... anada_jazz

Envoy

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... /envoy_air

[complexintentions]

Finally. Someone addresses the far more interesting comparison between now and 10, 20, 30 years ago. "Now you can get a crappy-paying airline job with hardly any hours!! Win!"

Who cares how easy it is to get a job when the job pays far less in adjusted dollars?

Anyone care to run the numbers for what tax rates and residential housing costs were 10, 20, 30 years ago?

Lack of experience is the least of anyone's worries.