Curiousflyer wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:10 am
management certainly could break the contract and lay off whoever they want
If they did that every pilot in the company would walk. Let's not get out of hand with these theories. It's easy to let fear get out of hand.
Curiousflyer is correct. AC could breach the contract and either settle with ACPA for pennies on the dollar at some later point in time, or get the ear of a likely sympathetic arbitrator. Arbitrators do often consider all circumstances when there is a breach. I'm not saying that's right, far from it, I'm just pointing out that that is the reality in unprecedented times.
I don't think every pilot would walk, they may talk of walking but once the bill payments come due, enough pilots live pay cheque to pay cheque that AC would still have enough takers to operate the skeleton of an airline that they need to.
If they did that every pilot in the company would walk. Let's not get out of hand with these theories. It's easy to let fear get out of hand.
Walk around in a circle maybe. Where would they go? Where would any AC pilot go, even during good times?
I think that's a shitty comment digit.
These are serious times, people are losing jobs, and that's a serious answer. AC Pilots would walk, as in set the brake, and shut it down until the company got it's head straight and respected the contract regarding furlough. That isn't going to happen anyway, because the company knows that's the way it goes and it's wrong.
What is so shitty about it? Of course these are serious times. I lost my job as well, but do I have to believe a senior captain making 300k is going to put a red flag on his head because the company is firing junior fos in an order not specified in the contract? Knowing that other airlines are laying off 90% to 100% of the work force?
It sounds like an empty threat to me honestly in these circumstances.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
If the company started an abuse of the contract that large,
and nobody is prepared to do anything then nobody would be safe. I think when word came down that the company was laying off out of seniority absolutely senior guys would protect their seniority.
You guys obviously don't work at AC. These dudes would walk if their layover hotel got downgraded. Being a $300k widebody Captain doesn't mean they're going to put up with any crap.
98 Corolla wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:51 pm
You guys obviously don't work at AC. These dudes would walk if their layover hotel got downgraded. Being a $300k widebody Captain doesn't mean they're going to put up with any crap.
What do you mean with "walk"? Go on strike? Not show up for work? In normal/good times, I can totally see that. Now? I'd find that hard to believe.
But you are right, I don't work anywhere at the moment.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
98 Corolla wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:51 pm
You guys obviously don't work at AC. These dudes would walk if their layover hotel got downgraded. Being a $300k widebody Captain doesn't mean they're going to put up with any crap.
What do you mean with "walk"? Go on strike? Not show up for work? In normal/good times, I can totally see that. Now? I'd find that hard to believe.
But you are right, I don't work anywhere at the moment.
Absolutely 100%
Crew sked:
"Captain, have a good flight, by the way it will be an airport layover for you on Frankfurt this trip"
Captain:
"No way, I'll wait here until you sort that out, contract says no airport layovers over 16 hours, I'm going to the Hilton in Mainz"
I know a few senior guys that just go with the flow, but I know more that would stand up for themselves and colleagues. And hotels are one thing... you going to come for my seniority? on a layoff? No F-n way. When it comes to seniority, everyone gets going.
98 Corolla wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:51 pm
You guys obviously don't work at AC. These dudes would walk if their layover hotel got downgraded. Being a $300k widebody Captain doesn't mean they're going to put up with any crap.
What do you mean with "walk"? Go on strike? Not show up for work? In normal/good times, I can totally see that. Now? I'd find that hard to believe.
But you are right, I don't work anywhere at the moment.
Absolutely 100%
Crew sked:
"Captain, have a good flight, by the way it will be an airport layover for you on Frankfurt this trip"
Captain:
"No way, I'll wait here until you sort that out, contract says no airport layovers over 16 hours, I'm going to the Hilton in Mainz"
I know a few senior guys that just go with the flow, but I know more that would stand up for themselves and colleagues. And hotels are one thing... you going to come for my seniority? on a layoff? No F-n way. When it comes to seniority, everyone gets going.
I'm not talking about a hotel, those are things that are easily fixable. Is that captain going to wait untill an out of order junior FO is rehired and another FO gets laid off? Those things don't affect said captain directly. That is what I am getting at.
Even if you do it as a group, what is the group going to do? Go on strike? In a time where the airline is basically shutting down anyway? The company might even encourage it. If we are going towards an SAS or Sunwing scenario, you can piss off a lot of people as a company, as long as you keep 20% happy, you'll be good. That's all you need in these corona times.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
You set the brake, you say no. That's the power the pilots have and when it comes to protecting seniority of the entire group it's #1.
We get pressure every day on things, hotels, exceed contract duty, exceed cars duty, lower than min crew rest, multiple mels, pairing awards out of seniority, unrealistic schedule planning, reassignment rules, pairing extensions, etc, etc...
If you can't understand that really you are talking about something you know nothing about, that this happens every day, I'm not going to explain it further.
Get back in your lane, or maybe go back to website design.
altiplano wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:19 pm
We get pressure every day on things, hotels, exceed contract duty, exceed cars duty, lower than min crew rest, multiple mels, pairing awards out of seniority, unrealistic schedule planning, reassignment rules, pairing extensions, etc, etc...
If you can't understand that really you are talking about something you know nothing about, that this happens every day, I'm not going to explain it further.
I understand all that. I do. I've done some of those things. All those examples however affect the pilot who refuses the flight. I've yet to see pilot A park a plane because pilot B (in a different crew) is not getting the hotel he is entitled to.
Or, by extension, see pilot A park a plane because pilot C got laid off out of order.
altiplano wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:19 pm
Get back in your lane, or maybe go back to website design.
Ah yes, convincing argument, you are totally right now. I can see the error of my ways.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Perhaps this will give folks a sense of where the corporation’s head is at -
AC CUPE (AC and Rouge FA’s)
A Message From Your Component Officers
Posted on March 19, 2020
Many of you have been reaching out with the recent announcement made by Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge regarding massive decreases in our immediate flying schedule. We have just concluded a call with Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge, and shortly after with ACCEX, and wanted to advise you of the following:
The Company has advised that it was their intention to invoke L60.06 of the Collective Agreement. This is an invocation of the Force Majeure clause.
As you know we have received word from Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge that they will be only maintaining limited international service to 6 destinations. This is subject to change. Transborder flights will be reduced to 13 destinations. The company will also continue to provide service to all provinces however it will be reduced and subject to further reductions.
There will be an overall reduction in capacity of at least 80% in April 2020.
There will also be reductions in capacity for May onward and as soon as we receive information about them, we will keep everyone informed.
The approximate Mainline surplus for the month of April is 3,600 members and Rouge will have all members, 1,549 deemed surplus. Rouge will in effect have zero flying hours for the month of April 2020.
The Company will commence the process of calling members and placing them on “Off Duty Status” as early as within the next 48 hours as outlined in LOU 6. Off Duty Status allows you to collect employment insurance and maintain benefits, along with travel benefits. The Union’s position is that this option should be offered to all members as we have heard from many senior members that they would like to voluntarily take this option. The company will allow the opportunity for members to volunteer for Off Duty Status. More information will come out from the company on this.
The Union has also sought clarity for those of you on SPLOAs in reference to you being able to collect Employment Insurance, maintain benefits and flight benefits. We have confirmed with the employer that those of you on SPLOAs for April 2020 will be converted to Off Duty Status enabling you to collect Employment Insurance.
As of May 2020, Article 17 of the Collective Agreement will apply and the Union has proposed that we commence discussions within the immediate future regarding mitigation options. Please reference Article 17 of the Collective Agreement and LOU 60.05. This outlines the process that we believe will be taking place for the May 2020 block month onwards. As per L60.05.03.04, the Union has provided a list of all mitigation options we would like to have them review. We have captured all mitigation suggestions that the members have brought forward to date. Thank you for providing them as we know it is important for many reasons.
We will keep you informed when new information comes to us and appreciate this causes many concerns and further uncertainty. We have many questions for the employer, and have sought much clarification, and commit that as we know, you will be advised.
Air Canada will be sending out all information through Air Canada email. Please ensure you have activated your Air Canada email; you can find the instructions on how to do this by going onto ACaeronet.
This is unprecedented, and not something any of us want to go through. The reality is real, and we are working around the clock ensuring you are represented.
In Solidarity,
What happens to flight attendants is a completely different ball game to pilots. Only one of them can be re-trained in an afternoon of operating door handles.
altiplano wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:19 pm
Get back in your lane, or maybe go back to website design.
You better get into the unemployment line, because that's going to be your lane for a while me thinks.
what an ignorant thing to say. Are you happy pilots may be laid off?
I see, it's fine for him to start telling folks 'in your lane' but for others to explain to him that was an ignorant comment by essentially telling him the same thing, that's not ok around here. So be it. He's still an ignorant prick posing that kind of crap, and deserves it thrown right back at him.
Dry Guy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:35 pm
What happens to flight attendants is a completely different ball game to pilots. Only one of them can be re-trained in an afternoon of operating door handles.
True, but it appears they’ll get EI, health benefits, and travel benefits. I doubt any pilot that gets lay off notice will get that. Seems like a great package for FA’s
Dry Guy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:35 pm
What happens to flight attendants is a completely different ball game to pilots. Only one of them can be re-trained in an afternoon of operating door handles.
True, but it appears they’ll get EI, health benefits, and travel benefits. I doubt any pilot that gets lay off notice will get that. Seems like a great package for FA’s
They just dont get paid for April if they apart of the certain numbers. Then for May they are figuring out mitigation strategies to avoid layoffs. All the benefits and seniority etc. Is this getting laid off or just off no pay? fake news
A 100% shutdown is a very real possibility imho - plenty of Airlines where this is already the case.
Seniority is moot in this scenario - everyone gets laid off.
My contract and roster have already been cancelled - waiting to see what happens next. Looks like I will still be flying but It is increasingly difficult to travel - the aircraft I normally fly is based on the other side of the World.
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Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
Dry Guy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:35 pm
What happens to flight attendants is a completely different ball game to pilots. Only one of them can be re-trained in an afternoon of operating door handles.
True, but it appears they’ll get EI, health benefits, and travel benefits. I doubt any pilot that gets lay off notice will get that. Seems like a great package for FA’s
They just dont get paid for April if they apart of the certain numbers. Then for May they are figuring out mitigation strategies to avoid layoffs. All the benefits and seniority etc. Is this getting laid off or just off no pay? fake news
