Morningstar

[Invertago]

Just wondering if anyone got a call for the YVR 208 job? Just trying to figure out if it has been filled or are they digging out from the avalanche of resumes they are probably buried under?

[genetic jack hammer]

What aircraft do they have out of YMX? Just the ATR or the 757 too? Thx

[Invertago]

ATR in CYMX as far as I know. 757s are only in Toronto

[YXDPilot]

[quote=Dronepiper post_id=<a href="tel:1123105">1123105</a> time=<a href="tel:1595954335">1595954335</a> user_id=71274]
[quote=YXDPilot post_id=<a href="tel:1123090">1123090</a> time=<a href="tel:1595951584">1595951584</a> user_id=29639]
Got a call last week. Interviewing tomorrow. Anyone know anything about their process? Couldn't find much online.

How many hours / experience do you have? Is it for the 208 spot? Or the ATR? Are you a laid off airline pilot?

The interview is for YYC ATR position. Around 5,000 TT. I am indeed a laid-off airline pilot.
[/quote]

Damn. Is it for Captain spot or FO spot? How much PIC do you have? Did you have an internal reference? I am just wondering what the new state of the industry looks like.
[/quote]

Sorry for the late reply! YYC Cap spot, no internal reference, around 1500 PIC.

[BE20 Driver]

Damn. Is it for Captain spot or FO spot? How much PIC do you have? Did you have an internal reference? I am just wondering what the new state of the industry looks like.

10,000 hours TT or thereabouts. almost 4000 PIC in a heavy turboprop, heavy lobbying from more than one internal reference, Western based and familiar with all the places they will fly to.

Not so much as an automatic PFO (seriously, how hard is it to autogenerate a thanks, but no thanks). Hell, I'd take an FO position if it got me off the couch. I don't need the PIC time anyway and I'd stick around for at least the two year bond period (willing to move to YYZ if it got me onto the 757 down the road). Unfortunately, they don't even want to interview guys like me.

That's your state of the industry.

[AirportCoffee]

Unfortunately, they don't even want to interview guys like me.

With all of the applications they received, I wouldn't be surprised if they're still sorting resumes.

[BE20 Driver]

With all of the applications they received, I wouldn't be surprised if they're still sorting resumes.

My internal references tell me that they have more than enough applicants and all the positions are either filled or will not be filled by "airline people" no matter what experience they have. They are not going to even entertain over qualified airline pilots.

Unfortunately, once you go to a jet airline, you are dead to a turboprop operator.

[schnitzel2k3]

It's less that and more knowing the industry will correct in time and they want guys who actually want to put in a couple years.

But you are right, some 3000+ aplications. No AC or WS pilots need apply as per my source.

[AirportCoffee]

I can certainly see how on one hand they don't want to invest their time in someone who will leave as soon as they are recalled back to AC or WS, but do they not realize that the same thing will happen to 704/705 lite captains who will go back to wherever they were making good $$$ prior?

While a job in this climate sure is nice, 55K in YVR only goes so far...

[BE20 Driver]

You never know what someone's motivation is without speaking to them. You can't assume that someone who has worked at AC or Sunwing and sees a future of commuting to YYZ after a possible recall wouldn't want this job. Maybe there is some guy out there who no longer gives a flying Fokker about the latest equipment bid, chasing the seniority carrot or some of the other BS that used to matter to people before COVID. One could likely build a nice little career and be home every day doing this job.

[AirportCoffee]

Sure, that's totally possible. The problem is that a blanket statement of "we're not taking airline guys" means that they won't look too hard at anyone's cover letter after reading that the applicant is on furlough. But what do I know, it's their company and they can run it however they please.

[Yycjetdriver]

You never know what someone's motivation is without speaking to them. You can't assume that someone who has worked at AC or Sunwing and sees a future of commuting to YYZ after a possible recall wouldn't want this job. Maybe there is some guy out there who no longer gives a flying Fokker about the latest equipment bid, chasing the seniority carrot or some of the other BS that used to matter to people before COVID. One could likely build a nice little career and be home every day doing this job.

Totally agree with you, I know a quite a few WJ mainline FO’s on furlough who have zero desire to return to WJ. Especially since some of them have only been with WJ for a short time and it was more than long enough, heck there’s even a few of them with ATR PIC time too.
Maybe it’s more of Morningstar realizing their own shortcomings and deflecting. They might realize their own WAWCON’s fall short, and they believe any former airline guy will be quick to realize this and will move on at the first chance. This in turn does not send a strong sign to the other employees. If you have someone whose experienced both sides first hand and ran back to their former spot at the first chance, does not send a good message. It shouldn’t be the financial risk aspect as a reason, recalls aren’t happening any time soon!

[fishface]

Maybe it’s more of Morningstar realizing their own shortcomings and deflecting. They might realize their own WAWCON’s fall short

YOU WISH

[Redmud]

What surprises me the most is two fold: firstly, young pilots entering the industry believe that when you hit 16000 hours with 10K hours heavy turboprop command plus thousands of hours on multiengine sea aircraft that you are automatically employable when the industry tanks and a few job adds start appearing... secondly, that history is not repeating itself... back in the early ‘90’s during the Gulf War I found laid-off airline pilots with 16K hours back flying C-310, C-208 etc etc... and the operators at the time were more than happy to have them because of “insurance requirements”... almost all the entry level jobs were filled by middle aged laid-off airline pilots... and, now after applying for a few float jobs on Beavers I discover a couple of operators have hired float pilots with only a couple of seasons under their belt... I went and chatted with one guy on the Beaver and he had under 400 hours float time, was happy to have the job etc.... well, I have thousands of hours on Beavers... a buddy at Morning spoke up for me for the ATR Captain job... I got 4800 hours in the left seat of that type out of the turboprop stable of my experience (10K+ hours PIC large turboprop) and the reply was - over qualified... so, 16K+ hours in the industry with diversified experience - airline/bush/aerial firefighting/training/grad degree/multilingual and not a bite...
So, looks like this over qualified pilot will pack the pick-up with gardening tools and head out to Victoria to attend to elderly people’s gardens until something with wings comes along...
To all the younger pilots out there - don’t believe for a minute that when you reach our level of experience that you are automatically employable - the whole industry is a farse... first you need multi time... so you go get it... then you need PIC time... so go collect some PIC.... then you need turbine time... then you need >12500 time... then you need trigger time (aerial firefighting)... then you need time on the Shuttle... you get the picture...and during economic down turns later in your career you realize too late how utterly useless all that experience is... so, as previously mentioned by others - go get a high tech education in IT/coding/systems admin etc. and run a parallel career along with your aviation adventure... when the flying adventure stops you can just continue on with your other career track...
So, am I missing something? What happened to the “insurance requirements” or, was that just another part of the hiring farse equation?
Red

[Ash Ketchum]

What surprises me the most is two fold: firstly, young pilots entering the industry believe that when you hit 16000 hours with 10K hours heavy turboprop command plus thousands of hours on multiengine sea aircraft that you are automatically employable when the industry tanks and a few job adds start appearing... secondly, that history is not repeating itself... back in the early ‘90’s during the Gulf War I found laid-off airline pilots with 16K hours back flying C-310, C-208 etc etc... and the operators at the time were more than happy to have them because of “insurance requirements”... almost all the entry level jobs were filled by middle aged laid-off airline pilots... and, now after applying for a few float jobs on Beavers I discover a couple of operators have hired float pilots with only a couple of seasons under their belt... I went and chatted with one guy on the Beaver and he had under 400 hours float time, was happy to have the job etc.... well, I have thousands of hours on Beavers... a buddy at Morning spoke up for me for the ATR Captain job... I got 4800 hours in the left seat of that type out of the turboprop stable of my experience (10K+ hours PIC large turboprop) and the reply was - over qualified... so, 16K+ hours in the industry with diversified experience - airline/bush/aerial firefighting/training/grad degree/multilingual and not a bite...
So, looks like this over qualified pilot will pack the pick-up with gardening tools and head out to Victoria to attend to elderly people’s gardens until something with wings comes along...
To all the younger pilots out there - don’t believe for a minute that when you reach our level of experience that you are automatically employable - the whole industry is a farse... first you need multi time... so you go get it... then you need PIC time... so go collect some PIC.... then you need turbine time... then you need >12500 time... then you need trigger time (aerial firefighting)... then you need time on the Shuttle... you get the picture...and during economic down turns later in your career you realize too late how utterly useless all that experience is... so, as previously mentioned by others - go get a high tech education in IT/coding/systems admin etc. and run a parallel career along with your aviation adventure... when the flying adventure stops you can just continue on with your other career track...
So, am I missing something? What happened to the “insurance requirements” or, was that just another part of the hiring farse equation?
Red

Good post. I would disagree with the IT side career thing. A skilled trade would be better imho. I tried the IT/coding route myself (university software engineering degree) and found that IT changes too fast to only do it part time. I'm now trying to jump back into tech and am having trouble with my skills being out of date during interviews.

[Yycjetdriver]

Maybe it’s more of Morningstar realizing their own shortcomings and deflecting. They might realize their own WAWCON’s fall short

YOU WISH

No I don’t wish, I couldn’t care less. I’m one of the lucky ones still employed, just my observation. If your a company operating a fleet of aircraft including 757’s and you’re worried about guys jumping ship... something is wrong. Make take a look in the mirror first and become the destination company you should be.

[flyinhigh]

What surprises me the most is two fold: firstly, young pilots entering the industry believe that when you hit 16000 hours with 10K hours heavy turboprop command plus thousands of hours on multiengine sea aircraft that you are automatically employable when the industry tanks and a few job adds start appearing... secondly, that history is not repeating itself... back in the early ‘90’s during the Gulf War I found laid-off airline pilots with 16K hours back flying C-310, C-208 etc etc... and the operators at the time were more than happy to have them because of “insurance requirements”... almost all the entry level jobs were filled by middle aged laid-off airline pilots... and, now after applying for a few float jobs on Beavers I discover a couple of operators have hired float pilots with only a couple of seasons under their belt... I went and chatted with one guy on the Beaver and he had under 400 hours float time, was happy to have the job etc.... well, I have thousands of hours on Beavers... a buddy at Morning spoke up for me for the ATR Captain job... I got 4800 hours in the left seat of that type out of the turboprop stable of my experience (10K+ hours PIC large turboprop) and the reply was - over qualified... so, 16K+ hours in the industry with diversified experience - airline/bush/aerial firefighting/training/grad degree/multilingual and not a bite...
So, looks like this over qualified pilot will pack the pick-up with gardening tools and head out to Victoria to attend to elderly people’s gardens until something with wings comes along...
To all the younger pilots out there - don’t believe for a minute that when you reach our level of experience that you are automatically employable - the whole industry is a farse... first you need multi time... so you go get it... then you need PIC time... so go collect some PIC.... then you need turbine time... then you need >12500 time... then you need trigger time (aerial firefighting)... then you need time on the Shuttle... you get the picture...and during economic down turns later in your career you realize too late how utterly useless all that experience is... so, as previously mentioned by others - go get a high tech education in IT/coding/systems admin etc. and run a parallel career along with your aviation adventure... when the flying adventure stops you can just continue on with your other career track...
So, am I missing something? What happened to the “insurance requirements” or, was that just another part of the hiring farse equation?
Red

Firstly, I am also a laid off airline pilot and feel your pain.

On the companies side of things, there is many many flags that go up when it comes to hiring us like the following;
1) When the industry turns, this guy is leaving on the first call (Might be one month, Might be two years),
2) Generally under the airlines you have made it, however coming back to 703/704 your going to bust your ass working with crappy conditions, where you just came eating descent meals and having nice hotel rooms. Than comes the complaining. (I've interviewed a couple airline pilots at the 704 level, and they all asked what we provided than began to compare it to what they used to have).
3) The work days, you will work 14 hour days. Most airline pilots have contracts that make the working day easier and supportive. 704 you work hard for 14 hours, with no support (Fatigue rules are coming in, and most complaints i've heard about them are from airline pilots not the bush pilot).
4) Insurance doesn't mean anything anymore. They are blanket policies that cover all pilots, not individual policies. Having one 16K hr pilot will not lower the price for the rest of the group.

Also on the bolded section. Yes the kid had 400 hours, but what would you expect the operator do, fire the kid that has been with him for who knows how long and hire you instead. Thats not going to happen as that kid will be back for the next couple seasons.

Its a crap deal, I get it as I cannot get anything either but I understand the other side of the table.

[Redmud]

Interesting feedback guys - thanxs! The kid I chatted with had just been hired for this season on the Beaver - I had also applied... I have returned on/off over the years when I had holidays and leave to fly again in the bush, I can still lift a full 45 gal drum into the back of the Twin Otter! I’m the fittest I have ever been right now, and I made it pretty clear I’m not interested in returning to the airlines... so, why are operators so keen to get young talent onboard and discard more experienced drivers... if it’s not the insurance game, what is it? Afraid the more experienced pilots might speak up?
When I get to Victoria I’ll be a one man show tackling garden work for a few family friends and hopefully expanding my clientele... all long 14 hour days, living in my van towing my tool trailer with me or, just using my truck... not all that different from working in a bush operation. A lot of employers forget mature and experienced pilots can work alone unsupervised for days, weeks, months and provide a well managed operation that consistently produces results...
We definitely are all in this mess together - make the best of it, enjoy the gift of life each day and be grateful for what you have... I’m trying to stay positive! I just wanted to highlight to the younger pilots that when you do get to the peak of your career don’t believe your experience, type ratings, hours etc are worth the paper they’re written on.
Red

[shimmydampner]

Maybe it’s more of Morningstar realizing their own shortcomings and deflecting. They might realize their own WAWCON’s fall short

YOU WISH

No I don’t wish, I couldn’t care less. I’m one of the lucky ones still employed, just my observation. If your a company operating a fleet of aircraft including 757’s and you’re worried about guys jumping ship... something is wrong. Make take a look in the mirror first and become the destination company you should be.

It's not an observation, it's an assumption and a pretty baseless one at that.
My understanding is that the WAWCON there is actually quite good, and for a lot of people, far superior to the airlines.

[Yycjetdriver]

YOU WISH

No I don’t wish, I couldn’t care less. I’m one of the lucky ones still employed, just my observation. If your a company operating a fleet of aircraft including 757’s and you’re worried about guys jumping ship... something is wrong. Make take a look in the mirror first and become the destination company you should be.

It's not an observation, it's an assumption and a pretty baseless one at that.
My understanding is that the WAWCON there is actually quite good, and for a lot of people, far superior to the airlines.

It’s a fair assumption/observation given then details I’ve seen, now if you have any that prove me wrong please do share. I’m sure there are lots of candidates that may care to know, if you actually know any...

[JohnnyHotRocks]

With over 3000 resumes it appears the WAWCON is good enough.
I have seen some laid off airline pilots taking corporate jobs that were regularly turned down pre covid because the pay was too low. People need to eat.

[Yycjetdriver]

With over 3000 resumes it appears the WAWCON is good enough.
I have seen some laid off airline pilots taking corporate jobs that were regularly turned down pre covid because the pay was too low. People need to eat.

Not at all what we were talking about but thanks.

[shimmydampner]

It’s a fair assumption/observation given then details I’ve seen

You started out by mentioning that they could have hired laid off WestJet pilots but did not. You speculated (with no basis in fact) that their motivation for doing so was because of their imagined "shortcomings" as a company that you guess would drive away a former airline pilot, accustomed to a certain working arrangement. The conjecture continues with the hypothesis that they are concerned about pilots jumping ship because "something is wrong" with the company and they are not "the destination company" that they "should be." Your whole argument is nothing more than a theory rooted in pure speculation for the purpose of explaining away the uncomfortable fact that they are not interested in hiring laid off airline pilots. You're starting with the assumption that for some reason airline pilots are more valuable and should be more sought after than non airline pilots, then inventing a narrative that explains away the cognitive dissonance that results when you find out it's not the case. Rather than having an honest examination of the reasons why a company may legitimately not want to hire a laid off airline pilot, you're just assuming that the company sucks and calling that an observable fact. It's a theory of convenience built on conjecture based on speculation. It's just a really, really bad argument.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

With over 3000 resumes it appears the WAWCON is good enough.
I have seen some laid off airline pilots taking corporate jobs that were regularly turned down pre covid because the pay was too low. People need to eat.

Not at all what we were talking about but thanks.

You are quite welcome!

[iflyforpie]

My how the tables have turned.

Morningstar isn’t a destination company not because of WAWCONS... but because of the simple fact that not everyone can or wants (wanted) to flow through to the YYZ based, non-commutable, likely years for an upgrade 757 spot when you could go 705 regional and get closer or commutable base with an upgrade inside of 2 years with decades of progression and perks.

You could probably have doubled the wages and there wouldn’t be any retention. Heck, lots of 703/704 operators did that in the last few years just to attract talent that went straight out the door as soon as Jazz or Encore or WJ called.

I don’t think they will have any problem attracting or retaining pilots in this market for the foreseeable future.