Long Landing Thread

[complexintentions]

It's very simple - land in the Touchdown Zone or Go- around. No ambiguity.

Yep. And it's not because of a "dumbing down" or because the Chief Pilot is a big meanie or some other such nonsense alluded to. It's simply due to the fact landing performance data is predicated on landing in the touchdown zone. Go outside it and you can throw the numbers out. Sure, there are large margins built in but they're not there to protect against wilfully landing long. And for some field/landing weight combinations the margins can be uncomfortably tight.

I've seen it many times with people transitioning from a B737/A320 to the B777, being casual about where they place the wheels. Not always, some narrowbody operators have just as disciplined SOP's regarding the TDZ as heavy operators, especially in Europe. But often enough for me to be alert until I see how an FO new to the type operates.

Who cares what someone in their private Super Cub does, could probably land across the runway if they want.

[pelmet]

It's very simple - land in the Touchdown Zone or Go- around. No ambiguity.

Yep. And it's not because of a "dumbing down" or because the Chief Pilot is a big meanie or some other such nonsense alluded to. It's simply due to the fact landing performance data is predicated on landing in the touchdown zone. Go outside it and you can throw the numbers out. Sure, there are large margins built in but they're not there to protect against wilfully landing long. And for some field/landing weight combinations the margins can be uncomfortably tight.

I've seen it many times with people transitioning from a B737/A320 to the B777, being casual about where they place the wheels. Not always, some narrowbody operators have just as disciplined SOP's regarding the TDZ as heavy operators, especially in Europe. But often enough for me to be alert until I see how an FO new to the type operates.

Who cares what someone in their private Super Cub does, could probably land across the runway if they want.

This thread was meant more for light aircraft but......

From an airliner point of view....I wouldn't even necessarily fully agree with the above. One can be landing in the touchdown zone and be almost 3000 feet down the runway. Combine that with some slipperiness at a heavy landing weight and you might be going off the end of the runway. Touching down in the touchdown zone is not a guarantee, especially when a few knots fast and a small tailwind. One should consider each landing as its own situation which can change from day to day on the same runway, in the same aircraft, at the same weight.

[pelmet]

C-FFIN a Cessna 152, operated by Lachute Aviation (6800009 Canada Inc.), was landing on
runway 25 at the Alexandria Aerodrome (CNS4), ON. During the approach, the speed was reported
to be higher than anticipated, and the aircraft touched down with about 2/3 of the runway
remaining. The pilot initiated a go-around, however, before becoming airborne the go-around was
rejected. The aircraft went off the end of the runway and struck an embankment located about 120
feet from the runway end. The aircraft came to rest on its nose; there were no injuries.

[pelmet]

From TSB......

C-FZKK, a Cessna 172N operated by Acadia College/AAA Aviation, was conducting circuit training
at Langley (CYNJ), BC, with 1 student pilot on board. After touchdown, the pilot reported
experiencing an unusual wobble in the landing gear and elected to attempt a full stop landing
rather than the intended touch and go. The aircraft overran the end of the runway and traversed
approximately 70 feet of grass before the nose gear collapsed and the aircraft collided with the
airport perimeter fence. The pilot exited the aircraft without assistance. There were no injuries, but
the aircraft was substantially damaged.
Maintenance crews recovered the aircraft. They will examine the aircraft and assess the extent of
the damage in general and in particular to the propeller, engine cowling, wing strut, and landing
gear.

[Eric Janson]

From an airliner point of view....I wouldn't even necessarily fully agree with the above. One can be landing in the touchdown zone and be almost 3000 feet down the runway. Combine that with some slipperiness at a heavy landing weight and you might be going off the end of the runway. Touching down in the touchdown zone is not a guarantee, especially when a few knots fast and a small tailwind. One should consider each landing as its own situation which can change from day to day on the same runway, in the same aircraft, at the same weight.

We use the airbus Flysmart software on an iPad.

We get very detailed information about every landing including the factored landing distance and the go-around climb gradient available.

A very important number is the margin remaining - this gives a good indication of whether landing at the end of the touch down zone will give issues.

If something changes a new calculation can be done very rapidly.

I'm surprised that this calculation still isn't mandatory at some Airlines.

[pelmet]

From TSB...

C-FUGU, a privately registered Cessna 172H, was returning to Michael's Bay Field, a private grass
runway approximately 17nm SW of Manitoulin East Municipal Airport (CYEM), ON, after a local
flight with only the pilot on board. During the landing flare on Runway 19, the pilot encountered an
unexpected tailwind (winds were observed, based on the appearance of the water, to be from the
west at approximately 20 knots), resulting in the aircraft floating along the runway. The pilot
decided that he was too far along the runway to make a successful go-around due to obstacles,
including a house, beyond the end of the runway. The pilot landed and used maximum braking
before steering the aircraft into nearby trees to avoid colliding with the house. The nose aircraft
received substantial damage to the nose, and the nose gear collapsed after hitting a rock. The left
and right wingtips received damage from contact with trees. The pilot was not injured.

[pelmet]

From TSB...

C-FYMK, a Cessna 208B operated by Superior Airways, was conducting a VFR flight from Red
Lake (CYRL), ON to Pikangikum (CYPM), ON with 1 pilot and 6 passengers onboard. During the
flare for landing on Runway 27 at CYPM, the aircraft entered fog and landed long. The aircraft
experienced a runway excursion when it rolled off the end of Runway 27. The aircraft sustained
damage to its propeller. There were no injuries. The ELT did not activate.

[Eric Janson]

I've also been clear to land to hold short of an intersection, to me, that has the potential for a similarly bad outcome if not accomplished as intended.

We are not allowed to accept these clearances - called Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO). For the reason stated above.

I've never worked for an Airline where this was approved.

Seems to be a North American thing - don't recall ever seeing this anywhere else.

[pelmet]

I've also been clear to land to hold short of an intersection, to me, that has the potential for a similarly bad outcome if not accomplished as intended.

We are not allowed to accept these clearances - called Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO). For the reason stated above.

I've never worked for an Airline where this was approved.

Seems to be a North American thing - don't recall ever seeing this anywhere else.

Works well. Greatly increases airport efficiency. Many times, the intersection is so far down the runway, one would never have gotten that far anyways.

[digits_]

I've also been clear to land to hold short of an intersection, to me, that has the potential for a similarly bad outcome if not accomplished as intended.

We are not allowed to accept these clearances - called Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO). For the reason stated above.

I've never worked for an Airline where this was approved.

Seems to be a North American thing - don't recall ever seeing this anywhere else.

Works well. Greatly increases airport efficiency. Many times, the intersection is so far down the runway, one would never have gotten that far anyways.

LAHSO is mainly used with intersecting runways, right? I'm wondering: if plane A is landing, touches down, but then goes around for whatever reason, after plane B on the other runway has gotten its LAHSO clearance, and also goes around, are both planes protected not to hit each other?

[pelmet]

We are not allowed to accept these clearances - called Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO). For the reason stated above.

I've never worked for an Airline where this was approved.

Seems to be a North American thing - don't recall ever seeing this anywhere else.

Works well. Greatly increases airport efficiency. Many times, the intersection is so far down the runway, one would never have gotten that far anyways.

LAHSO is mainly used with intersecting runways, right? I'm wondering: if plane A is landing, touches down, but then goes around for whatever reason, after plane B on the other runway has gotten its LAHSO clearance, and also goes around, are both planes protected not to hit each other?

A go-around can lead to a collision regardless of whether LAHSO operations are in effect. I remember one time we were taking off out of Chicago from 14L with a clearance to turn left to something like 090 degrees. The winds were out of the south at 30 knots. While we were on the roll an A330 was instructed to go around from 14R due to a dead bird reported on the runway. Meanwhile, an RJ landing on 10C decided to go around as well due to the effects of the wind. So double go-around and us taking off. Let's just say that it got interesting with plenty of confusion, mostly for the controllers. With two towers in operation, I was only able to piece things together later on by downloading the communication tapes from the internet. 14L did not intersect with 10C but the centerlines did.

Even a go-around from parallel runway ops can lead to a collision with the parallel. Happened recently in Paris....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5CFhVvMTkk

Anyways, when all is said and done, I don't remember any collisions due to LAHSO ops. Doesn't mean it won't happen though.

[pelmet]

C-GEOW, a Pilatus PC-12/45 aircraft operated by North Star Air Ltd., was conducting a flight from
Sioux Lookout Airport (CYXL), ON to Kasabonika Airport (CYAQ), ON. During the landing on
Runway 03, the aircraft experienced a runway excursion when it overran the end of the runway.
The aircraft came to rest approximately 350 feet past the departure end of the runway and the
aircraft was substantially damaged. The pilots and passengers were uninjured. The ELT activated.


.....from TSB.

[pelmet]

From TSB.....

C-GBYN, a Beech B200 King Air registered to Keewatin Air LP, was conducting flight KEW201
MEDEVAC from Goose Bay Airport (CYYR), NL, to Ottawa/Macdonald-Cartier International Airport
(CYOW), ON, with a planned enroute fuel stop at Québec/Jean Lesage International Airport
(CYQB), QC. Shortly after departure from Runway 26, the flight crew received a LH engine fire
indication. The crew arrested their climb, actioned the appropriate checklist memory items which
led them to shut down the LH engine. The crew then declared an emergency with ATC and
requested to return for Runway 08. While maintaining visual contact with the ground, the crew
navigated and conducted a single engine landing on Runway 08. Upon landing on the wet runway,
the aircraft continued beyond the end of the runway, striking two runway end lights and coming to a
stop on the paved surface, approximately 30 feet beyond the runway end lights. Both flight crew
and 3 passengers were uninjured.

.....Runway is over 11,000 feet long.