IATA Warning for Canadian Aviation Sector

[goldeneagle]

But of course the British are a bunch of reckless people who do not protect their citizens like Canada does.......

British restrictions

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus ... -corridors

I notice Canada is not on the list, so, arriving in England from Canada would require a 14 day isolation. But then you must have known that, customs folks would have told you on entry....

[Gilles Hudicourt]

British restrictions

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus ... -corridors

I notice Canada is not on the list, so, arriving in England from Canada would require a 14 day isolation. But then you must have known that, customs folks would have told you on entry....

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -and-crew

Aircraft pilots and crew
Applies to:

Pilots and crew, as defined in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Air Navigation Order 2016(h), where such crew have travelled to the UK in the course of their work.

You will need to complete the passenger locator form before you travel to the UK if you travel in any part of the aircraft that is accessible to any passenger for any part of the journey (for example the aircraft cabin).

You do not need to complete the passenger locator form if you travel in a part of the aircraft that is not accessible to passengers, for example a fully enclosed cockpit.

You will not need to self-isolate.

You should show a crew badge or ID.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Awesome photographs Gilles, er um...where are all the people? I too can wander around the waterfront where I live, have lunch with my family, drink a few beers, or coffee, go shopping or sit in the sun socially distanced with others who can do the same. I can drive to a different city and meet friends in my bubble, go fishing or travel on a ferry and if I choose to, I can fly to another city, and do all the stuff you just did. What, exactly is your point?

It's safe to travel to certain places. The UK, France, Portugal Spain are just like us. Same masks. Same hand sanitizer. Same thermometer scan at the entrance. Same measures. Same social distancing. Same, same, same, same....

[GRK2]

Awesome photographs Gilles, er um...where are all the people? I too can wander around the waterfront where I live, have lunch with my family, drink a few beers, or coffee, go shopping or sit in the sun socially distanced with others who can do the same. I can drive to a different city and meet friends in my bubble, go fishing or travel on a ferry and if I choose to, I can fly to another city, and do all the stuff you just did. What, exactly is your point?

It's safe to travel to certain places. The UK, France, Portugal Spain are just like us. Same masks. Same hand sanitizer. Same thermometer scan at the entrance. Same measures. Same social distancing. Same, same, same, same....

IF you're crew. Yes, but not as a passenger. Two weeks in isolation. Are you suggesting that Canada opens the border to anyone who wants to visit? Because until the testing and results are standardized and can be done quickly exactly the same way in every country, we won't be seeing many tourists being allowed entry. In addition some of the countries that used to be safe are gearing up for a second wave. It's shitty but we have to think it might be a tough winter ahead.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Are you suggesting that Canada opens the border to anyone who wants to visit?

It's safe to travel to certain places

Because until the testing and results are standardized and can be done quickly exactly the same way in every country, we won't be seeing many tourists being allowed entry.

You are aware that Canadian tourists I have been flying to Europe since late July are not tested before or after their arrival in Europe right ? They are just let in after the standard questions.

You are aware that the people who I fly to Canada from Europe, be it returning Canadian Tourists, Students coming to University, Family members of Canadians and Canadian Residents, are not being tested either. You know that right ?

[AuxBatOn]

Are you suggesting that Canada opens the border to anyone who wants to visit?

It's safe to travel to certain places

Because until the testing and results are standardized and can be done quickly exactly the same way in every country, we won't be seeing many tourists being allowed entry.

You are aware that Canadian tourists I have been flying to Europe since late July are not tested before or after their arrival in Europe right ? They are just let in after the standard questions.

You are aware that the people who I fly to Canada from Europe, be it returning Canadian Tourists, Students coming to University, Family members of Canadians and Canadian Residents, are not being tested either. You know that right ?

They don’t get tested but they have to quarantine. Geez Gilles, you are really grasping at straws...

[Gilles Hudicourt]

They don’t get tested but they have to quarantine. Geez Gilles, you are really grasping at straws...

They have to......right! You should come out of your bunker more often.....
Do you personally know anyone who has arrived from overseas lately ? Living in an immigrant neighbourhood I know many. I ran into people at the supermarket that I knew had just arrrived....

I know one guy whose ex-in-laws had just arrived from overseas. A couple days later, while he was out, his babysitter called to say the grandparents had just come over and picked up his kids.....

He called the cops. They did......nothing. The law has no ressources to enforce it. People get SMS and the occasional phone call asking if they quarantine.

The other day while in Europe, my colleague received a call from the Government asking why he has was not in quarantine. He told them he was a crewmember and in France so was not subject to quarantine anyway......

We were told to use an application called ArriveCan to report our arrival every time we arrive. I arrived a few times in Quebec and used it at Customs. Then I arrived in Toronto from Overseas and when we presented it to the Canada Customs officer, he waved it away and said it was a "Quebec thing" (I assume he meant for Crewmembers)

[AuxBatOn]

They don’t get tested but they have to quarantine. Geez Gilles, you are really grasping at straws...

They have to......right! You should come out of your bunker more often.....
Do you personally know anyone who has arrived from overseas lately ? Living in an immigrant neighbourhood I know many. I ran into people at the supermarket that I knew had just arrrived....

I know one guy whose ex-in-laws had just arrived from overseas. A couple days later, while he was out, his babysitter called to say the grandparents had just come over and picked up his kids.....

He called the cops. They did......nothing. The law has no ressources to enforce it. People get SMS and the occasional phone call asking if they quarantine.

The other day while in Europe, my colleague received a call from the Government asking why he has was not in quarantine. He told them he was a crewmember and in France so was not subject to quarantine anyway......

We were told to use an application called ArriveCan to report our arrival every time we arrive. I arrived a few times in Quebec and used it at Customs. Then I arrived in Toronto from Overseas and when we presented it to the Canada Customs officer, he waved it away and said it was a "Quebec thing" (I assume he meant for Crewmembers)

Surely if people don’t feel compelled to quarantine, the demand for international air travel would remain high right? Oh wait. It is not. Either most people feel compelled or there is something deeper - they don’t want to travel for other reasons, like reducing chances of infection. Either way, nothing that will help your argument.

FWIW, your quoted statement alone goes against your argument that the quarantine slowed aviation down.

[FL320]

They don’t get tested but they have to quarantine. Geez Gilles, you are really grasping at straws...

They have to......right! You should come out of your bunker more often.....
Do you personally know anyone who has arrived from overseas lately ? Living in an immigrant neighbourhood I know many. I ran into people at the supermarket that I knew had just arrrived....

I know one guy whose ex-in-laws had just arrived from overseas. A couple days later, while he was out, his babysitter called to say the grandparents had just come over and picked up his kids.....

He called the cops. They did......nothing. The law has no ressources to enforce it. People get SMS and the occasional phone call asking if they quarantine.

The other day while in Europe, my colleague received a call from the Government asking why he has was not in quarantine. He told them he was a crewmember and in France so was not subject to quarantine anyway......

We were told to use an application called ArriveCan to report our arrival every time we arrive. I arrived a few times in Quebec and used it at Customs. Then I arrived in Toronto from Overseas and when we presented it to the Canada Customs officer, he waved it away and said it was a "Quebec thing" (I assume he meant for Crewmembers)

Surely if people don’t feel compelled to quarantine, the demand for international air travel would remain high right? Oh wait. It is not. Either most people feel compelled or there is something deeper - they don’t want to travel for other reasons, like reducing chances of infection. Either way, nothing that will help your argument.

FWIW, your quoted statement alone goes against your argument that the quarantine slowed aviation down.

Pardon me but you react like a sheep who stays in his paddock reading the news all day long; you’re not the only one unfortunately..but there is life outside...go for it.

[GRK2]

Gilles,

Great that you are flying, still tons of us are not, please try to tone down the layover stories. Others may not be as happy as you.

THIS:"The problems with airport onsite COVID tests are multifold. Current tests take hours to process, which poses the problem of having people wait somewhere until the results come through. Hong Kong Airport has been doing this for all arriving passengers for some months, but that means passengers must sit in the adjacent convention center for hours after their flight. Many airports do not have a viable “waiting room,” and many passengers would not accept waiting that long, especially for a short domestic flight, which is the majority of travel that U.S. passengers are taking.

The International Air Transport Association (IATA) is calling for a system that would allow a passenger to get a test done 72 hr. ahead of their flight. But the testing would need to be widely available, reliable, approved by all regulatory authorities involved and as non-intrusive as possible. These criteria are not yet available.

Then there’s the question of verifying that the test result belongs to the passenger who presents it at the airport/airline. And there is no agreement on who should pay.

IATA is hopeful that a testing system that would fit the criteria will become available soon, maybe this fall, and it will likely be a next step ahead of any vaccine."

(not my words, IATA quote)

Can you confirm that every passenger you bring back has an Isolation Plan? The fact that you say they do but won't is enough to stop the opening.

[mijbil]

Here is a clip making the rounds. It's about 40 minutes. The big takeaway for me is that the real measure should not be "cases" but rather the death rate. Imagine if the media breathlessly reported all the "cases" of regular flu or chickenpox or bad breath?
For the record, I think the quarantine needs to end. It's overblown and is as much of a 'pandemic' as the regular flu is a 'pandemic'. Watch the clip and you'll see what I mean.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvFhIF ... h3DYYjMkMc

And another from Australia
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_619 ... 6oo9sfiMP4

['97 Tercel]

so far, the Canadian population would rather stay home.

..and that's based on your own wide-reaching survey you have conducted recently? Or just a random statement?

Survey on hardship related to US/Canada border closure: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/one-in-fi ... -1.5048795

Canadians want a vaccine before travelling: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.5672571

Nice try but that survey was from the beginning of July. A little outdated in 'Covid World'

[AuxBatOn]

..and that's based on your own wide-reaching survey you have conducted recently? Or just a random statement?

Survey on hardship related to US/Canada border closure: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/one-in-fi ... -1.5048795

Canadians want a vaccine before travelling: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.5672571

Nice try but that survey was from the beginning of July. A little outdated in 'Covid World'

You really think people have a more positive view today!?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

It all depends on where you live, your age bracket and so forth......
Small town, older people = bunker in
Large cities, Younger people = time to fly again......

[AuxBatOn]

It all depends on where you live, your age bracket and so forth......
Small town, older people = bunker in
Large cities, Younger people = time to fly again......

School started (less time for all except working people with no kids or retired I guess), COVID spiking up in Canada and abroad. Yes, I am sure people are a lot more inclined to travel now than 2 months ago...

[Old fella]

It all depends on where you live, your age bracket and so forth......
Small town, older people = bunker in
Large cities, Younger people = time to fly again......

School started (less time for all except working people with no kids or retired I guess), COVID spiking up in Canada and abroad. Yes, I am sure people are a lot more inclined to travel now than 2 months ago...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/flight ... -1.5729643

[Gilles Hudicourt]

https://images.cdn.centreforaviation.co ... antine.png

[twa22]

Has anyone ever stopped to think that covid itself is more then just about the virus now... (hint, hint...)

The death rate has progressively gotten lower as the months have passed and considerably more testing has occurred. The death rate worldwide currently sits somewhere around 3.1% and is likely to be MUCH lower now and when this pandemic is over, given that there are so many people who likely have had it without ever experiencing one symptom... remember, in the beginning, the death rate was as high as 9 or 10%

Do I believe in the blanket travel ban and quarantine? I did, in the beginning, when all of this started, and doctors did not know a whole lot about the virus, how to treat it/control it which led to healthcare system being overwhelmed in many countries. I was a believer in wearing a mask right from the beginning, not because a doctor told me, but because in my mind, my logic told me that a) wearing a mask should stop more of my micro droplets, even if it's not 100% proof, it's better then nothing, and b) because maybe it would help incoming droplets from others not make it into my repository system... and what were all our top doctors saying? "yea, you don't need a mask" Uhhhhhh ok? Even when you have a simple cold, wearing a mask will do a little something. I'm sure there's a reason why in certain cultures, wearing a mask is common practice when you have the sniffles.

Alright now we got it somewhat under control, we have eased restrictions, and cases are spiking again... that's normal, but with proper procedures and people actually following the rules somewhat, we have been able to return to some normal within our country, and we will continue to do so even when cases do rise again. It can be managed, so why can't we do that with travel from outside? Why can't we do what the UK or other European countries do? Put proper measures in place, allow travelers from certain countries that have covid cases under control to not have to undergo 14 day quarantine and, we must, test, test,test... no one is saying you have to wait at the airport for your result.... make specific quarantine transport and hotels for a few nights until the results are back, then repeat again. You have 2 negative tests? Off you go... this 14 day quarantine/self isolation, not just in Canada, but other parts of the world, is just plain silly, it really is .

My example is very simplistic, but i'm sure you get the gist. The rules can be relaxed with proper measures in places

[AuxBatOn]

..and that's based on your own wide-reaching survey you have conducted recently? Or just a random statement?

Survey on hardship related to US/Canada border closure: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/one-in-fi ... -1.5048795

Canadians want a vaccine before travelling: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.5672571

Nice try but that survey was from the beginning of July. A little outdated in 'Covid World'

If you want something more recent... https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump- ... -1.5730806

90% of Canadians support the measures...

[twa22]

Survey on hardship related to US/Canada border closure: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/one-in-fi ... -1.5048795

Canadians want a vaccine before travelling: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.5672571

Nice try but that survey was from the beginning of July. A little outdated in 'Covid World'

If you want something more recent... https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump- ... -1.5730806

90% of Canadians support the measures...

While I understand that the US is one our biggest trading partners, and lots of people go their to vacation, the US shouldn't be the sole deciding factor with regards to keeping borders closed and having a mandatory 14 day isolation period. Yea, I agree that keeping the US border closed isn't a bad idea (or at least if we open it, there are strict measures in place), but we could surely open up borders with other countries with the proper measures put in place

But anyways who am I to preach, why listen to science and facts when hysteria works better

[AuxBatOn]

Nice try but that survey was from the beginning of July. A little outdated in 'Covid World'

If you want something more recent... https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump- ... -1.5730806

90% of Canadians support the measures...

While I understand that the US is one our biggest trading partners, and lots of people go their to vacation, the US shouldn't be the sole deciding factor with regards to keeping borders closed and having a mandatory 14 day isolation period. Yea, I agree that keeping the US border closed isn't a bad idea (or at least if we open it, there are strict measures in place), but we could surely open up borders with other countries with the proper measures put in place

But anyways who am I to preach, why listen to science and facts when hysteria works better

Please bring forth this science you are talking about.

[twa22]

If you want something more recent... https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump- ... -1.5730806

90% of Canadians support the measures...

While I understand that the US is one our biggest trading partners, and lots of people go their to vacation, the US shouldn't be the sole deciding factor with regards to keeping borders closed and having a mandatory 14 day isolation period. Yea, I agree that keeping the US border closed isn't a bad idea (or at least if we open it, there are strict measures in place), but we could surely open up borders with other countries with the proper measures put in place

But anyways who am I to preach, why listen to science and facts when hysteria works better

Please bring forth this science you are talking about.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said science, but the fact that one can put measures in place to avoid the 14 day quarantine is pretty obvious. Perform testing within a few days, if you receive 2 negative tests in the span of 5 days, I see no reason for the need to quarantine, what good would it do at that point? Anyways, wanting to keep the 14 day rule affects you as much as it does me... I'm happy I still have a job, somehow... but this quarantining is not making life easy for anyone, especially us pilots

[Wammer]

While I understand that the US is one our biggest trading partners, and lots of people go their to vacation, the US shouldn't be the sole deciding factor with regards to keeping borders closed and having a mandatory 14 day isolation period. Yea, I agree that keeping the US border closed isn't a bad idea (or at least if we open it, there are strict measures in place), but we could surely open up borders with other countries with the proper measures put in place

But anyways who am I to preach, why listen to science and facts when hysteria works better

Please bring forth this science you are talking about.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said science, but the fact that one can put measures in place to avoid the 14 day quarantine is pretty obvious. Perform testing within a few days, if you receive 2 negative tests in the span of 5 days, I see no reason for the need to quarantine, what good would it do at that point? Anyways, wanting to keep the 14 day rule affects you as much as it does me... I'm happy I still have a job, somehow... but this quarantining is not making life easy for anyone, especially us pilots

Been saying this exact thing for weeks to anyone that’ll listen. I genuinely don’t understand why we wouldn’t put this in place. We’ve been led to believe that there’s no shortage of testing kits available, so it shouldn’t be an issue. People are way more likely to be able to afford to tack on 4 or 5 days to the end of their vacation than two weeks. Guarantee we would see a huge uptick in travel

[AuxBatOn]

Please bring forth this science you are talking about.

Sorry, I shouldn't have said science, but the fact that one can put measures in place to avoid the 14 day quarantine is pretty obvious. Perform testing within a few days, if you receive 2 negative tests in the span of 5 days, I see no reason for the need to quarantine, what good would it do at that point? Anyways, wanting to keep the 14 day rule affects you as much as it does me... I'm happy I still have a job, somehow... but this quarantining is not making life easy for anyone, especially us pilots

Been saying this exact thing for weeks to anyone that’ll listen. I genuinely don’t understand why we wouldn’t put this in place. We’ve been led to believe that there’s no shortage of testing kits available, so it shouldn’t be an issue. People are way more likely to be able to afford to tack on 4 or 5 days to the end of their vacation than two weeks. Guarantee we would see a huge uptick in travel

Whether it is 5 days isolated (waiting for test results) or 14 days, having that tome off will make people shy away from travel. On top of that, how do you deal with the logistics of the testing? Who administers it? Who pays for it (it is now for leisure - do we pay for foreign nationals?) Where is it administered (do we allow foreign nationals to break self-isolation to visit a test center)? How do we enforce it (we have a hard enough time enforcing quarantines for the limited amount of people travelling)?

Is the pain of organizing the administration worth the gains that would materialize if such a program was to be launched? Would people accept waiting 5 days for results? Would it really increase travel?

[twa22]

Sorry, I shouldn't have said science, but the fact that one can put measures in place to avoid the 14 day quarantine is pretty obvious. Perform testing within a few days, if you receive 2 negative tests in the span of 5 days, I see no reason for the need to quarantine, what good would it do at that point? Anyways, wanting to keep the 14 day rule affects you as much as it does me... I'm happy I still have a job, somehow... but this quarantining is not making life easy for anyone, especially us pilots

Been saying this exact thing for weeks to anyone that’ll listen. I genuinely don’t understand why we wouldn’t put this in place. We’ve been led to believe that there’s no shortage of testing kits available, so it shouldn’t be an issue. People are way more likely to be able to afford to tack on 4 or 5 days to the end of their vacation than two weeks. Guarantee we would see a huge uptick in travel

Whether it is 5 days isolated (waiting for test results) or 14 days, having that tome off will make people shy away from travel. On top of that, how do you deal with the logistics of the testing? Who administers it? Who pays for it (it is now for leisure - do we pay for foreign nationals?) Where is it administered (do we allow foreign nationals to break self-isolation to visit a test center)? How do we enforce it (we have a hard enough time enforcing quarantines for the limited amount of people travelling)?

Is the pain of organizing the administration worth the gains that would materialize if such a program was to be launched? Would people accept waiting 5 days for results? Would it really increase travel?

Whether it is 5 days isolated (waiting for test results) or 14 days, having that tome off will make people shy away from travel.

5 days is A HUGE DIFFERENCE compared to 14. I can promise you with certainty that the general population will be more inclined to tack on 5 days to their vacation versus 14, I know I would.

On top of that, how do you deal with the logistics of the testing? Who administers it? Who pays for it (it is now for leisure - do we pay for foreign nationals?)

First off, testing results do not take 5 days... they may take that long if there are few testing facilities and lots of tests to be administered, with not enough staff to get through all the samples, hence the 5 hour wait times in line now, and the couple days to get your result... if public health would allow for privatized testing, then maybe there wouldn't be as many backlogs.

Ok so let's say we do allow for privatized testing, and travel picks up, and then even more testing will have to occur. Fine, you may still end up at up to 5 days to receive results, but it's still better then 14.

As for how do you administer it and who pays for it? As has been mentioned, both Air Canada and Westjet have offered to pay for tests, and i'm sure they can deal with the logistics of it... even if it means adding x amount in costs to their operation, I would think the risk vs reward would likely pay off here, hence probably why they are offering to do this...

How do we enforce it (we have a hard enough time enforcing quarantines for the limited amount of people travelling)?

It's 2020... they can track your phone, OR, they can even put a simple colored wristband on your arm, that way if you go out in public and people see your wristband, you get fined. Ok you cut the wristband off your arm sure, but do you really think people are that willing to risk a fine/imprisonment?

Is the pain of organizing the administration worth the gains that would materialize if such a program was to be launched? Would people accept waiting 5 days for results? Would it really increase travel?

Yes, because a) it would help our industry, which i'm sure is something that matters to you (because it does to me and probably 95% of pilots out there) and b) people want to travel no matter which way you slice it. Are people scared to do it because of varying factors? Yes... but with the right measures in place, i'm sure opinions and mindsets would be swayed, it's human psychology after all...