What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
The moral of this story seems to be that there is a time and place where such a manoeuvre is appropriate, but most of the time it is not. The key here is to have the student understand this and not just simply copy what they have seen their instructor do. Maybe it requires a little more work from the instructor to explain why s/he is doing such a thing, but I believe it is an important distinction to make.
The alternative is a world where all of the students learn to always do a circle check, then they become instructors and pass this on to their students, and so on, and so on. Pretty soon, "we have always done it that way", with no understanding of the reasoning behind the original procedure, and ferocious insistence that it must be done that way.... but that would never happen, right??
The alternative is a world where all of the students learn to always do a circle check, then they become instructors and pass this on to their students, and so on, and so on. Pretty soon, "we have always done it that way", with no understanding of the reasoning behind the original procedure, and ferocious insistence that it must be done that way.... but that would never happen, right??
- rookiepilot
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5069
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
That is true for many different local procedures in many different places.
Land and hold short, common in the US, Landing / taking off in a preferred direction due to noise, turbulence in the mountains....loads of local stuff.
At Burlington, It's really only used at that runway and mostly when positioned a certain way, so the instructor can see.
Turning a left 45 on the taxiway so right seat can see, would put the tail to the wind, and also blocks planes who are ready to go from getting around the slower students.
From left seat, I turn right 45 on the taxiway, do the runup, I can see fine, and I'm gone while a school aircraft is the bay, (taking a lot longer.)
That is why they've set it up that way, for traffic flow.
It's a (really ) crappy ramp, taxiway and runup area, for the amount of traffic. Way too small, but is what it is.
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
I am amazed that when backed into a corner for doing something stupid, pilots suddenly want to start defining the conditions, or the old..” one time, at flight school”
I agree with photo. It is not a thing. Butthat does not mean some boneheads are out there doing it.
Once you pass the hold line you can see down the runway without any obstructed view of the approach path and confirm the runways is clear And not about to get congested.
I still believe this is the brainchild of some instructor or FTU. Thousands of takeoffs in my career. I have never seen this as a necessary procedure. And I would be miffed if I was no. 2 and the guy 10 feet in front of me decided to do a circle dance before they took off.
I agree with photo. It is not a thing. Butthat does not mean some boneheads are out there doing it.
Once you pass the hold line you can see down the runway without any obstructed view of the approach path and confirm the runways is clear And not about to get congested.
I still believe this is the brainchild of some instructor or FTU. Thousands of takeoffs in my career. I have never seen this as a necessary procedure. And I would be miffed if I was no. 2 and the guy 10 feet in front of me decided to do a circle dance before they took off.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
I’ve never heard the “and the student was actually my Dad and he said...” before. Points for originality, for that one.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
- rookiepilot
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5069
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Compared to the dumb and dangerous things I've seen done at Burlington and area airports, turning in a circle with students well clear of the hold short line is way, way down on the list. So far down it doesn't even make it.
But carry on with this silly thread.
But carry on with this silly thread.
-
- Rank 1
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 12:50 pm
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
When I did my CPL 300nm, I saw someone do this for the first time at CYRQ. Thought the guy was doing doughnuts.
Honestly, if you can't spot anyone on base, you're most probably okay and have enough time to taxi/backtrack. I don't see the need at all to look on the entire downwind...
Honestly, if you can't spot anyone on base, you're most probably okay and have enough time to taxi/backtrack. I don't see the need at all to look on the entire downwind...
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1900
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:53 am
- Location: On final so get off the damn runway!
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
I would like to share a personal experience...and here is why at my home airport I do a quick 360.
Location is an ATF airport which has one runway and single taxiway from the rather large apron to the middle of the 4000 foot long runway thus making you have to always backtrack in either direction for departure. There's more than enough room on the apron to do your run up and quick circle to get situational awareness of the traffic situation in the circuit. I do this in case I either missed calls while doing my run up or if pilots just aren't making the required calls in the circuit...which sometimes happens there.
On this particular day i was the only one in circuit, making all the required calls, and noted a 172 doing a run up on the apron. The pilot would have easily seen me had they done a quick circle to have a look before entering the taxiway. The 172 driver then made a call as they were entering the runway that they were backtracking...I was now on final. Of course I go around and announce that I was doing so on the frequency. Funny thing was, he then starts angrily asking me to identify myself.
We had a brief "informative" chat on the ATF and he apologized when he realized he was in the wrong then departed.
Once established back on the downwind, I then saw another aircraft doing a run-up on the apron. Again, that pilot would have clearly seen me on downwind had they done a quick and harmless 360 look around on the big apron but didn't. The pilot then called backtracking before entering the runway and, because I was anticipating this time, I assertively told him to stop as I was on final explaining again that i had been making all my calls. He did....but past the hold short line.
My point? If it's safe to do so, there is no harm in increasing your situational awareness at certain airports by doing a quick circle check. Yes perhaps there might be a NORDO aircraft in the circuit but for myself, I'm more worried about people just not paying attention to either the radio, their surroundings, or both.
Location is an ATF airport which has one runway and single taxiway from the rather large apron to the middle of the 4000 foot long runway thus making you have to always backtrack in either direction for departure. There's more than enough room on the apron to do your run up and quick circle to get situational awareness of the traffic situation in the circuit. I do this in case I either missed calls while doing my run up or if pilots just aren't making the required calls in the circuit...which sometimes happens there.
On this particular day i was the only one in circuit, making all the required calls, and noted a 172 doing a run up on the apron. The pilot would have easily seen me had they done a quick circle to have a look before entering the taxiway. The 172 driver then made a call as they were entering the runway that they were backtracking...I was now on final. Of course I go around and announce that I was doing so on the frequency. Funny thing was, he then starts angrily asking me to identify myself.

Once established back on the downwind, I then saw another aircraft doing a run-up on the apron. Again, that pilot would have clearly seen me on downwind had they done a quick and harmless 360 look around on the big apron but didn't. The pilot then called backtracking before entering the runway and, because I was anticipating this time, I assertively told him to stop as I was on final explaining again that i had been making all my calls. He did....but past the hold short line.

My point? If it's safe to do so, there is no harm in increasing your situational awareness at certain airports by doing a quick circle check. Yes perhaps there might be a NORDO aircraft in the circuit but for myself, I'm more worried about people just not paying attention to either the radio, their surroundings, or both.
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Do you think those pilots on the ground that missed you on short final would have spot you in a downwind position, which every plane flies at a different distance and sometimes at a different altitude, even if they did the 360 check?linecrew wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:54 am I would like to share a personal experience...and here is why at my home airport I do a quick 360.
Location is an ATF airport which has one runway and single taxiway from the rather large apron to the middle of the 4000 foot long runway thus making you have to always backtrack in either direction for departure. There's more than enough room on the apron to do your run up and quick circle to get situational awareness of the traffic situation in the circuit. I do this in case I either missed calls while doing my run up or if pilots just aren't making the required calls in the circuit...which sometimes happens there.
On this particular day i was the only one in circuit, making all the required calls, and noted a 172 doing a run up on the apron. The pilot would have easily seen me had they done a quick circle to have a look before entering the taxiway. The 172 driver then made a call as they were entering the runway that they were backtracking...I was now on final. Of course I go around and announce that I was doing so on the frequency. Funny thing was, he then starts angrily asking me to identify myself.We had a brief "informative" chat on the ATF and he apologized when he realized he was in the wrong then departed.
Once established back on the downwind, I then saw another aircraft doing a run-up on the apron. Again, that pilot would have clearly seen me on downwind had they done a quick and harmless 360 look around on the big apron but didn't. The pilot then called backtracking before entering the runway and, because I was anticipating this time, I assertively told him to stop as I was on final explaining again that i had been making all my calls. He did....but past the hold short line.![]()
My point? If it's safe to do so, there is no harm in increasing your situational awareness at certain airports by doing a quick circle check. Yes perhaps there might be a NORDO aircraft in the circuit but for myself, I'm more worried about people just not paying attention to either the radio, their surroundings, or both.
Sounds to me like those pilots hould have checked final thoroughly before entering the runway, which is a more established practice.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5927
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
- Location: West Coast
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
The bigger question here, IMHO, is not "are circle checks dumb" it is what should FTU's be telling their students.
Personally I don't believe a circle check should never be done. I can envision circumstances, albeit rare ones, when the combination of aircraft visibility constraints, taxiway vs runway alignment and pilot spiny senses saying I want a complete look around. The last time I did one was to get a good look at the downwind end of the runway because I was not getting a warm fuzzy from what the inbound plane was saying on the radio. Sure enough he was calling final for 29 but was lined up on 11.
The problem comes when instructors mindless tell their students "do a circle check before every takeoff" instead of "how am you going to position the aircraft so that you can see enough to ensure the approach path is clear before you occupy the runway"
Personally I don't believe a circle check should never be done. I can envision circumstances, albeit rare ones, when the combination of aircraft visibility constraints, taxiway vs runway alignment and pilot spiny senses saying I want a complete look around. The last time I did one was to get a good look at the downwind end of the runway because I was not getting a warm fuzzy from what the inbound plane was saying on the radio. Sure enough he was calling final for 29 but was lined up on 11.
The problem comes when instructors mindless tell their students "do a circle check before every takeoff" instead of "how am you going to position the aircraft so that you can see enough to ensure the approach path is clear before you occupy the runway"
- rookiepilot
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5069
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Absolutely correct.Big Pistons Forever wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:21 am
The problem comes when instructors mindless tell their students "do a circle check before every takeoff" instead of "how am you going to position the aircraft so that you can see enough to ensure the approach path is clear before you occupy the runway"
I know for a fact Burlington instructors don't tell their students to do this at all airports -- at least mine never once did.
I'd still like to hear how the instructors who think a circle is always a stupid idea, from the right seat in a 172,
can see an aircraft on a tight low right base to a runway partially obstructed by trees, when doing the run up into wind -- without doing some kind of circle. D
in Burlington anyway, pilots make close in circuits all the time, and radio calls may or may not be trustworthy.
Unless you blindly trust your 5 hour student to tell you from the left seat --

Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Why exactly would a pilot be doing “a tight Turn from a low base”?
Particularly in a single, final turn should Normally be at 500 AGL , or above, unless operational considerations make that impracticable, and the base above that. What a tight turn sounds likeis poor airmanship in positioning the plane correctly. Particularily if a tight turn means steep and one is close to the ground. So much for real safety. Next add some extra rudder to get that nose lined up.
The aircraft flying can see the runway. Radio calls give position. And go arounds happen.
Maybe there is a case to be made for doing a 360, in a very very rare set of circumstances. I just have never seen it, and can’t visualize a situation unless we go to the “imagine this” type of scenario
Particularly in a single, final turn should Normally be at 500 AGL , or above, unless operational considerations make that impracticable, and the base above that. What a tight turn sounds likeis poor airmanship in positioning the plane correctly. Particularily if a tight turn means steep and one is close to the ground. So much for real safety. Next add some extra rudder to get that nose lined up.

The aircraft flying can see the runway. Radio calls give position. And go arounds happen.
Maybe there is a case to be made for doing a 360, in a very very rare set of circumstances. I just have never seen it, and can’t visualize a situation unless we go to the “imagine this” type of scenario
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
In your opinionParticularly in a single, final turn should Normally be at 500 AGL, or above

Low ceilings, practice forced landing, pilot preference... these are all valid operational reasons.unless operational considerations make that impracticable
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
- RedAndWhiteBaron
- Rank 8
- Posts: 813
- Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:55 pm
- Location: In the left seat, admitting my mistakes
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Cowboys who hear, acknowledge, and yet still ignore radio calls could be there too. This happens more often than Brampton would like to make public. Perhaps someone simply didn't trust other traffic in the circuit. Hearing isn't believing in that case - seeing is.
Agreed though that crossing the threshold is a colossally stupid and perhaps unforgivable move.
I will dance the sky on laughter-silvered wings.
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Yes, that 500 feet is my opinion, and I thought I qualified it, but maybe it was not clear. If operational consideration make a deviance from that, it is fine.
Having said that, what is the opinion of others with regard to a typical, normal, usual height to be turning final?
Not really interested in the “one time, or at our airport” exceptions
Having said that, what is the opinion of others with regard to a typical, normal, usual height to be turning final?
Not really interested in the “one time, or at our airport” exceptions
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
- rookiepilot
- Top Poster
- Posts: 5069
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
I've seen the following at ZBA -- never mind collingwood on a busy Saturday.
I'm sure Brampton is similar. Great airports that can be nutcases on some days
Transiting planes blow right through the pattern at circuit height, full cruise power. No radio call.
Touch and go planes landing 2000 feet + down the 3700 foot strip, then just clearing the trees.
Planes landing downwind, opposite prevailing traffic, and / or practicing touch and goes on cross runway while pattern for main runway is packed full.
Cutting off other planes in the circuit, cutting in front of a slow plane on base to do that "tight pattern" and land.
Accurate Radio calls? Seriously?
I don't blame anyone taking a good look at any uncontrolled field before taking the runway.
This isn't Pearson with controllers watching every move and professional pilots.
Do what you have to do.
I'm sure Brampton is similar. Great airports that can be nutcases on some days
Transiting planes blow right through the pattern at circuit height, full cruise power. No radio call.
Touch and go planes landing 2000 feet + down the 3700 foot strip, then just clearing the trees.
Planes landing downwind, opposite prevailing traffic, and / or practicing touch and goes on cross runway while pattern for main runway is packed full.
Cutting off other planes in the circuit, cutting in front of a slow plane on base to do that "tight pattern" and land.
Accurate Radio calls? Seriously?
I don't blame anyone taking a good look at any uncontrolled field before taking the runway.
This isn't Pearson with controllers watching every move and professional pilots.
Do what you have to do.
Last edited by rookiepilot on Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- RedAndWhiteBaron
- Rank 8
- Posts: 813
- Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:55 pm
- Location: In the left seat, admitting my mistakes
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Well I can speak for two different training techniques. I learned in gliders a long time ago, and I was taught to start the downwind at 1000', be turning base at 500' and final at 300'. My current instructor, however, is much more of a "just eyeball it and adjust power if need be" teacher. But of course one of those training regimens includes the option of a go-around, and the other does not.
Let me think - I generally am taught now to begin my descent when abeam the threshold, 1000' AGL, and begin a 500fpm descent (give or take). If it takes two minutes between that and touchdown, that would put me slightly above 500' AGL turning base, and slightly above 300' turning final.
[Just reviewed some of my flight training videos]
Seems that without overthinking it, I begin turning final at 500'AGL and lose 200' (ish) in the turn (I am afraid of steep turns at low altitude), beginning my final at somewhere between 300' and 250'AGL, and it's repeatable. But again, my instructor hasn't taught me that specifically. It's more that I'm being taught to eyeball it, adjust power as necessary, and to memorize the "recipe" for flying a good circuit, and that once I grok that, I'll be golden.
I will dance the sky on laughter-silvered wings.
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
I agree 400-500 feet wouldn't be unusual, but in the context of this thread, we're not just looking for people flying "usually", we'd like to be looking out for people flying "unusually", too.trey kule wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:55 pm Yes, that 500 feet is my opinion, and I thought I qualified it, but maybe it was not clear. If operational consideration make a deviance from that, it is fine.
Having said that, what is the opinion of others with regard to a typical, normal, usual height to be turning final?
Not really interested in the “one time, or at our airport” exceptions
If, at the enquiry, your best line is "I looked in the places where the traffic usually is" that's not great, is it?
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1900
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:53 am
- Location: On final so get off the damn runway!
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Yes, these two committed multiple errors, I don't disagree. My point is that had they included a quick look around 360 in their pre-takeoff checks routine, like I do here, then they would have likely seen me. They also would not have entered the narrow taxiway effectively blocking me from exiting the runway.digits_ wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:15 amDo you think those pilots on the ground that missed you on short final would have spot you in a downwind position, which every plane flies at a different distance and sometimes at a different altitude, even if they did the 360 check?
Sounds to me like those pilots should have checked final thoroughly before entering the runway, which is a more established practice.
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:08 am
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
I have to say, I have seen many instructors teach "circle checks before lining up".
Their arguments for teaching that is always "to look for traffic in the area that would be behind you" regardless of airport layout, radio communications, etc.
As if a traffic in the downwind would be of issue within the maybe 25 seconds it takes you to get off the ground.
Their arguments for teaching that is always "to look for traffic in the area that would be behind you" regardless of airport layout, radio communications, etc.
As if a traffic in the downwind would be of issue within the maybe 25 seconds it takes you to get off the ground.
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
I’m delighted we have a new stick with which to beat instructors: too much looking out for traffic.
Well done, AvCanada.
Well done, AvCanada.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
My point is, that this is extremely unlikely. If he can't see you while he is taxiing straight towards you (while backtracking), what makes you think he would have spotted you on a downwind?
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Interesting thread. Firstly, I'd like to say I've never seen or even heard of this procedure before in 20 plus years of flying/instructing. Mind you the majority has been in Western Canada and the US. I don't think this is instructor bashing so much as a discussion about the actual value of a particular and somewhat unusual maneuver that is purported to be safety driven.
Obviously I don't know about everyone else, but I have always flown and taught my students that on approach a pilot needs to be ready to overshoot every single time. In certain conditions it is especially important to be ready. One of the major situations where that comes into play is when another aircraft is at or near the hold short line. Visibility for the pilot on the ground can be limited for any number of reasons even the fact they may not bother doing a good lookout regardless of the sight lines. On approach it's best to assume that the aircraft on the ground may well proceed onto the runway and be primed to overshoot if they do. I never count on their procedures or ability to keep me safe.
Prior to this thread, if I was on approach and someone on the ground did a circle just prior to the hold short I would be wondering what the heck was going on and I'd be very, very ready to go around as I'd have no idea what that pilot was doing. (And I guess since reading this thread I'd still be particularly ready but at least I might not think they were having a seizure or something.)
Obviously I don't know about everyone else, but I have always flown and taught my students that on approach a pilot needs to be ready to overshoot every single time. In certain conditions it is especially important to be ready. One of the major situations where that comes into play is when another aircraft is at or near the hold short line. Visibility for the pilot on the ground can be limited for any number of reasons even the fact they may not bother doing a good lookout regardless of the sight lines. On approach it's best to assume that the aircraft on the ground may well proceed onto the runway and be primed to overshoot if they do. I never count on their procedures or ability to keep me safe.
Prior to this thread, if I was on approach and someone on the ground did a circle just prior to the hold short I would be wondering what the heck was going on and I'd be very, very ready to go around as I'd have no idea what that pilot was doing. (And I guess since reading this thread I'd still be particularly ready but at least I might not think they were having a seizure or something.)
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1900
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:53 am
- Location: On final so get off the damn runway!
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
You misunderstood...again. He finally saw me when i was headed at him on final. Anyway you totally missed my point.

Anyway fly safe.
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
This is one of the funniest things ever posted on here.
Slow clap. Well done, PF.
Re: What's with the "circle check" before takeoff?
Sounds reasonable to me. Or turn 90°in one direction for a good look and then in the other direction to get a good view of the downwind. You would be surprised how close-in and fast some aerobatic aircraft operate with a curving turn to final.linecrew wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:54 am My point? If it's safe to do so, there is no harm in increasing your situational awareness at certain airports by doing a quick circle check. Yes perhaps there might be a NORDO aircraft in the circuit but for myself, I'm more worried about people just not paying attention to either the radio, their surroundings, or both.