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Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:06 pm
by photofly
Unfortunately the recent trend is the other way: Burlington really screwed the pooch. It was a really unsympathetic case for us, and the judges all bent over backwards to find against the aviation community. Now, if you're building a runway and you need fill, there's precedent that you have to bow to your municipality and get permits. Even if it's a real runway that you're building.
Now we have to wait and see how Greenbank turns out. I am not optimistic, because it looks to be another shit-show of greed in the name of our community. And I actually want to build a (real) runway in that municipality.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:23 pm
by Bede
Yep, the trend is indeed the other way. It is interesting though well COPA and Sacre-Coeur turned out in aviation's favour. Those two cases aren't very popular.
I'm not familiar with Greenbank. What's going on there?
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:36 pm
by photofly
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:10 pm
by boogs82
Civic wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:28 am
Thanks boogs82 appreciate it. You’re saying that Barrie schools are closed but others are open, I’m confused as now being a province wide lockdown how are some open and some closed ?
I can't say whether others are open or closed. I just know that schools around here are closed.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:36 am
by Aviatard
Bede wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:53 pm
That's because in Burlington, the Court recognized that the Airpark was just trying to use IJI as a work around to store aggregate. They had no intention of using it to make a runway. The Court saw through their scheme and ruled accordingly.
Not really. The initial suit argued that the City had the right to regulate the cleanliness of the fill being used. Later the City argued that the fill was a commercial operation. Airpark eventually won the case based on the retroactive application of a new bylaw, and declined to rule on the other arguments. New taxiways and apron areas were constructed but never finished. The original plan was to take advantage of the impending and never-ending closure of Buttonville airport, and entice aircraft owners to relocate to Burlington. The runways were widened and lengthened but the new taxiways and aprons were never paved. I'm pretty sure this project is dead after no activity for years. I believe the owner gave up after so much hassle but that's just my speculation.
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/2 ... ultIndex=3
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:34 am
by Cessna 180
photofly wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:17 am
Bede wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:16 am
It comes down to who has the better lawyers. FTU’s (and airlines, banks, etc.) fall under the jurisdiction of the federal government and therefore the provincial regulations are inapplicable. See interjurisdictional immunity.
Well, this is an overly-simplistic statement.
Some elements of what FTUs do is under the jurisdiction of the federal government, and some isn't. For instance, FTUs have to pay provincial sales taxes, are subject to provincial employment laws, and a raft of other stuff.
Banks are "federally regulated" as far as the Canada Labour Code goes, and their employees are not subject to the (eg) Ontario Employment Standards Act, but are their branches subject to provincial health legislation? Absolutely. Are FTUs subject to the Canada Labour Code? I don't know of any test cases, but no, not by my interpretation.
Regardless, you would get absolutely nowhere by saying that an FTU isn't covered by the present Ontario emergency regulations. Public health matters are provincially decided, and don't impinge on aeronautics specifically.
The topic of provincial regulation of commercial flight training seems to me to be on the borderline; certainly challengable, but not a slam dunk. More widely, judicial opinion has swung away from ruling anything to do with flying cannot be touched by the province: see Burlington Airpark Inc. v. Burlington (City), and see Canadian Western Bank v. Alberta, [2007] 2 S.C.R. 3,
A] court should favour, where possible, the ordinary operation of statutes enacted by both levels of government. In the absence of conflicting enactments of the other level of government, the Court should avoid blocking the application of measures which are taken to be enacted in furtherance of the public interest.
Flight training units, like airlines, are most definitely regulated by the Canada Labor Code, not the Employment Standards Act (Ontario).
In terms of saying the public health orders do not inherently infringe on aeronautics is incorrect. How can forcing the closure of a school
not affect aeronautics if they could no longer operate? What's to stop the provincial government from closing Pearson Airport since Dougie is so convinced that Ontario's corona problem is because of international flights?
While not a slam dunk, I highly doubt a case against a flight school would be successful, especially if it was for non-provincially regulated activities such as private pilot training, etc. In terms of an argument could be if the federal government was concerned about flight schools, they could have closed them themselves, being that it's in their exclusive jurisdiction. They mandated masks on airlines, as well as temperature checks and other anti-covid measures.
To add to this, it looks like flight schools aren't closing. I just looked up WWFCs website and they say they're in full operation.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:01 am
by photofly
The courts look at the purpose of the legislation, and not just its effects. Where the purpose of legislation is to achieve a purpose well within the remit of the provincial government, it's permitted to affect matters under federal jurisdiction. In this case the restrictions are both temporary and are plainly aimed at tackling an important public health emergency. You will not find a judge who will say the province doesn't have the power to close a flight training school whose aircraft rarely venture more than 50 miles away from their home.
While not a slam dunk, I highly doubt a case against a flight school would be successful, especially if it was for non-provincially regulated activities such as private pilot training, etc.
Why do you carve out private pilot training? In your estimation, the province should have no remit over commercial pilot training either, yet they claim it, and flight schools across the province comply with the Private Career Colleges Act (Ontario) every day.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:45 am
by Civic
WWFC is only doing career training as they have temporarily canceled discovery and sightseeing flights
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:14 am
by photofly
Which is what they explicitly permitted to do, as a Private Career College, under the Ontario emergency regulations - that, and only that.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:06 pm
by Civic
photofly wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:14 am
Which is what they explicitly permitted to do, as a Private Career College, under the Ontario emergency regulations - that, and only that.
So if I wanted to take training for the recreational permit right now under the lockdown I couldn’t do it until the 23rd of January when the the lockdown expires?
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:14 pm
by RedAndWhiteBaron
Civic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:06 pm
photofly wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:14 am
Which is what they explicitly permitted to do, as a Private Career College, under the Ontario emergency regulations - that, and only that.
So if I wanted to take training for the recreational permit right now under the lockdown I couldn’t do it until the 23rd of January when the the lockdown expires?
Affirmative.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:58 pm
by photofly
Civic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:06 pm
photofly wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:14 am
Which is what they explicitly permitted to do, as a Private Career College, under the Ontario emergency regulations - that, and only that.
So if I wanted to take training for the recreational permit right now under the lockdown I couldn’t do it until the 23rd of January when the the lockdown expires?
You can’t do it at a private career college. Most FTUs are not private career colleges. If you find one of those, and they figure they’re allowed to open, fill your boots.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:58 pm
by RedAndWhiteBaron
photofly wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:58 pm
Civic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:06 pm
So if I wanted to take training for the recreational permit right now under the lockdown I couldn’t do it until the 23rd of January when the the lockdown expires?
You can’t do it at a private career college. Most FTUs are not private career colleges. If you find one of those, and they figure they’re allowed to open, fill your boots.
I would figure they're
not allowed to open for recreational training. But I'm only 72.3% confident about that.
However, PF is right - there is no legal risk to you AFAIK. That risk is shouldered by the business, not the customer.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:49 pm
by Civic
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:58 pm
photofly wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:58 pm
Civic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:06 pm
So if I wanted to take training for the recreational permit right now under the lockdown I couldn’t do it until the 23rd of January when the the lockdown expires?
You can’t do it at a private career college. Most FTUs are not private career colleges. If you find one of those, and they figure they’re allowed to open, fill your boots.
I would figure they're
not allowed to open for recreational training. But I'm only 72.3% confident about that.
However, PF is right - there is no legal risk to you AFAIK. That risk is shouldered by the business, not the customer.
It seems like half the schools in Ontario are open and some other ones are closed entirely. I’ll try and find the actual law stating that schools should be closed or has no effect on them.
I assume training for the private pilot licence is not essential so that training shouldn’t be allowed.
Thanks and confused
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:08 pm
by photofly
Civic wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:49 pm
I assume training for the private pilot licence is not essential so that training shouldn’t be allowed.
Once again, I remind you that (with a few exceptions) there is no list of activities that are and aren't allowed. Only businesses (or parts of businesses) that are permitted to open.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:49 pm
by Civic
photofly wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:08 pm
Civic wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:49 pm
I assume training for the private pilot licence is not essential so that training shouldn’t be allowed.
Once again, I remind you that (with a few exceptions) there is no list of activities that are and aren't allowed. Only businesses (or parts of businesses) that are permitted to open.
In reality I can find a freelance instructor to teach me commercial licence stuff on a private plane but couldn’t do that at a regulated flight school. Ok, thanks.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:04 pm
by photofly
No, that's explicitly not what I wrote.
You're welcome!
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:00 am
by Gowyn
DFC will be opening up 18 January for CPL, instructor and multi training. PPL and REC will have to wait for the lockdown to end.
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:34 am
by Civic
Gowyn wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:00 am
DFC will be opening up 18 January for CPL, instructor and multi training. PPL and REC will have to wait for the lockdown to end.
It’s positive news, I assume no discovery flights either?
Re: Flight training still open during Ontario province-wide lockdown?
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:57 am
by Gowyn
I would assume not considering best outcome of a "discovery flight" would be REC or PPL student.
On the other hand though with Ontario government starting to talk about further restrictions I would be surprised to see the 18th pushed back.